If God was Before...

[Spiritlight]

The best way to solve this is ask someone who was there. Until you find that out your just guessing. Our best attempt at an explanation is God the creator, not because it is a philosopy or theory but because it is an inner feeling it is true.

 

[JGG]

Well, either time is eternal and the question is answered easily, or time had a beginning. If time had a beginning it did such when the universe began to exist. So without the universe, there would be no time.

Yet without the universe there is God, or at least that's how I see it.

I don't see how we reach that last conclusion.

It is common sense; think about it: If there is no past, and there isn't; it doesn't exist anymore, and there is no future; there isn't; it hasn't happened yet, then all there is is an eternal present--even for us mere humans.

Time is an illusion. There is and always has been, and always will be, an atemporal state of existence. That's all there "really" is. It has always been this way; it will never change. Even God can't make "real" time.

But past is just the present that once was. We're looking at the first ever present moment and saying...Well, then something came before that.

The best way to solve this is ask someone who was there. Until you find that out your just guessing. Our best attempt at an explanation is God the creator, not because it is a philosopy or theory but because it is an inner feeling it is true.

Oh, I don't like that one bit.

 

[elopez]

I don't see how we reach that last conclusion.

You don't. I do. I'm sure you know we have to leave it at that. Even if there is no God, I could still see a possible state of atemporality without the universe.

 

[Edward the Theist]

The best way to solve this is ask someone who was there. Until you find that out your just guessing. Our best attempt at an explanation is God the creator, not because it is a philosopy or theory but because it is an inner feeling it is true.

So the best solution is: "Trust your inner feeling"? My inner feeling is that there is no God at all, but I know that's not really logically accurate. I know that's not quite possible, even though it seems that way. Do you still want me to trust my inner feeling--or do you really mean that I should trust your inner feeling?

But past is just the present that once was. We're looking at the first ever present moment and saying...Well, then something came before that.

Your not looking at it correctly, in my opinion. There is no past; there is no future. All that remains is a memory or a hope.

Would you agree that there is no future, that it doesn't exist?

 

[Ana the Ist]

We don't really know. We do know that God is eternal without beginning or end. This boggles our mind because we live in a universe where things begin, and things end, and time exists. On the other side, things could be very different - no such thing as time for example.

If God is omnipotent then he can create things right?

"We don't really know."

Would you accept that answer from an atheist if you asked him how the universe was created?

 

[Episcoboi]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist? I mean, what would it be made from?

This is something that I have also wondered for a long time. I think that, like the Sufis (See esp. Ibn-Arabi, The Bektashi Babas, etc.) and some Kabbalists (i.e. Rabbi Arthur Green, Jay Michaelson) say, the only real (i.e. having existence not contingent on any other existence) is God. All else is contingent on God, and thus does not have independent existence. It is only we humans who create a separation between us and God. Like one modern Kabbalist and mystic put it, God is the Oneness of Being the "Ehyeh-asher-Ehyeh" (I will be what I will be).

As St. Paul said, "For in Him [sic] we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28)

 

[Ana the Ist]

So the best solution is: "Trust your inner feeling"? My inner feeling is that there is no God at all, but I know that's not really logically accurate. I know that's not quite possible, even though it seems that way. Do you still want me to trust my inner feeling--or do you really mean that I should trust your inner feeling?



Your not looking at it correctly, in my opinion. There is no past; there is no future. All that remains is a memory or a hope.

Would you agree that there is no future, that it doesn't exist?

" My inner feeling is that there is no God at all, but I know that's not really logically accurate. I know that's not quite possible, even though it seems that way."

Seems perfectly logical to me....and quite possible as well.

 

[Spiritlight]

So the best solution is: "Trust your inner feeling"? My inner feeling is that there is no God at all, but I know that's not really logically accurate. I know that's not quite possible, even though it seems that way. Do you still want me to trust my inner feeling--or do you really mean that I should trust your inner feeling?



Your not looking at it correctly, in my opinion. There is no past; there is no future. All that remains is a memory or a hope.

Would you agree that there is no future, that it doesn't exist?

Trust yours. That is what is right for you. If there is nothing by way of divine creator God for you so be it! it doesn't worry me as I respect fully your decisions as Ihope you would respect mine.

What can I say I came across some cool thing called Jesus that blew me away.

I cant not share something that is good in my life. I whinge about whats bad in my life but that is my good thing.
God will never usually be experienced until he is invited.

Bless you. I hope you find peace in your questioning.

 

[Edward the Theist]

Trust yours. That is what is right for you. If there is nothing by way of divine creator God for you so be it! it doesn't worry me as I respect fully your decisions as Ihope you would respect mine.

What can I say I came across some cool thing called Jesus that blew me away.

I cant not share something that is good in my life. I whinge about whats bad in my life but that is my good thing.
God will never usually be experienced until he is invited.

Bless you. I hope you find peace in your questioning.

You respect my decisions? You hope I respect yours? What does that even mean? I don't care what you believe--that's about as much respect as I can show. Since you avoid logic and go with magical thinking, I don't think I can truthfully say I respect your beliefs.

 

[Spiritlight]

You respect my decisions? You hope I respect yours? What does that even mean? I don't care what you believe--that's about as much respect as I can show. Since you avoid logic and go with magical thinking, I don't think I can truthfully say I respect your beliefs.

Mutual respect for each others beliefs is the beginning of understanding. Logic has its place but is not all there is.
Intuition is as relevant as logic. Just because intuition is not as easily replicated as logical anlasys does not discount its importance as tool for finding God.

 

[Edward the Theist]

Mutual respect for each others beliefs is the beginning of understanding. Logic has its place but is not all there is.
Intuition is as relevant as logic. Just because intuition is not as easily replicated as logical anlasys does not discount its importance as tool for finding God.

Well stated, but in my opinion wholly incorrect. Intuition leads to belief, but it doesn't lead to truth, or if it does lead to truth, it does so only by happenstance.

Logic leads to truth. If logic doesn't lead to truth, then there is no mechanism by which human beings can ascertain the truth in any reliable way. So, if God is found through intuition, then God has utterly hidden himself from humanity.

As I have stated, I believe God exists. But I believe only God exists and everything else we think exists is really part of God owing its existence to being of God's substance. I can demonstrate this with logical arguments--irrefutable logical arguments, in my opinion. But that God is not a Christian God. In fact, if that God exists, religion of anykind is most likely pointless.

Now, which way is better? In your way, there is a supreme being who you worship and who loves you and will act in ways that are beneficial to you because of that love. But since you don't understand what He understands you may, in the final analysis, find yourself to suffer as much as anyone else.

In my way, there is no Supreme Being to worship--God is as alone in existence as He ever has been. His creation is merely his dream, and our consciousness is merely his consciousness within the dream. There is nothing to pray to; there is no love except his self-love (which explains why Jesus thought the second commandment was like the first, that is to love your neighbor as yourself was the same as loving God). And there is no real individual identity among persons. Thus we find ourselves to suffer about the same as everyone else.



Do you want to discuss this, or are you just going to walk away with Bible in hand hoping I'll respect your belief enough to leave you alone in your delusion?

 

[Crandaddy]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist? I mean, what would it be made from?

It would be made from God's act of willing, all by itself. He's the only Being who can do that.

In timeless eternity, God knows the universal essences of everything that might possibly exist as individual, particular objects, and in his act of creation, he wills them as such.

God's creative activity is, all by itself, the stuff that all contingent substances are made of.

 

[Edward the Theist]

It would be made from God's act of willing, all by itself. He's the only Being who can do that.

What the heck is that supposed to mean? Seriously.

In timeless eternity, God knows the universal essences of everything that might possibly exist as individual, particular objects, and in his act of creation, he wills them as such.

You're not saying anything. I'm drowning and you're describing the water.

God's creative activity is, all by itself, the stuff that all contingent substances are made of.

So, God's creative activity (let's call it GCA) is the substance of all contingent substances (CS). That means, GCA = CS.

But GCA is part of the substance of God, so CS has to be part of the substance of God. There still is only God and everything else is made from some aspect of his substance--it's not a different thing. What you've described is a Divine dream. Just like when I dream. When I dream, my will and imagination create the universe of my dream. And in that sub-real world, everything seems real, but it is all part of my mental substance. In my dream, if you keep splitting atoms in a particle accelerator, eventually, you're going to end up with my mind.

That's what I'm saying about God. Break atoms down enough and eventually, you're going to be looking at God.

 

[Crandaddy]

What the heck is that supposed to mean? Seriously.

It means that God's act of willing just is the existence of contingent beings, such as stars and planets, dogs and cats, you and I.

You're not saying anything. I'm drowning and you're describing the water.

Forget about the "timeless eternity" bit for right now. I'm trying to draw a distinction between God's knowledge and his creative activity. The main thing to see is that while God necessarily knows all things that might possibly exist, he does not necessarily will the existence of all of them.

God necessarily exists; his essential substance can't not exist. We, on the other hand, are contingent beings, so ours can. Therefore, we're distinct from God as he exists in his essential substance.

So, God's creative activity (let's call it GCA) is the substance of all contingent substances (CS). That means, GCA = CS.

But GCA is part of the substance of God, so CS has to be part of the substance of God. There still is only God and everything else is made from some aspect of his substance--it's not a different thing. What you've described is a Divine dream. Just like when I dream. When I dream, my will and imagination create the universe of my dream. And in that sub-real world, everything seems real, but it is all part of my mental substance. In my dream, if you keep splitting atoms in a particle accelerator, eventually, you're going to end up with my mind.

That's what I'm saying about God. Break atoms down enough and eventually, you're going to be looking at God.

This is partially correct, I think. God is ipsum esse subsistens, meaning that he is subsistent Being himself. When God revealed his name to Moses as "I AM," he was revealing that his essential nature is pure, infinite Being. Everything that exists apart from God necessarily derives its being from God because God just is Being. In other words, everything that has being has as the source of its being him whose essential nature just is Being. Unlike God, who cannot not be (since his essential nature is Being), contingent beings like you and I can cease to be at any moment. All God has to do is cease to actively cause us to be, and we'll instantly be annihilated.

So we do, in a loose sense, "draw" our own substance from God's substance, since God's Being is the source of our being. But we do not participate in God's essential substance (i.e. in his Being), since we can cease to be whenever God chooses.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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