If God was Before...

[Edward the Theist]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist? I mean, what would it be made from?

 

[kilt]

Just make up an answer. Your guess is as good as anyone if you follow that logic, don't mean to be rude.

 

[joep222]

God spoke the universe into existence by the power of His will.

He is God!

 

[Edward the Theist]

Just make up an answer. Your guess is as good as anyone if you follow that logic, don't mean to be rude.

Well that's just it, I don't see how there can be anything in existence except for God. In other words, if you consider the cosmological or teleological arguments for God to be valid, and I do, that leaves you with only God.

God spoke the universe into existence by the power of His will.

He is God!

In other words, you're happy with magical thinking. You couldn't careless about the logical implications of what you say you believe, you just accept what you are told.

Let me ask you this: Do you think it's possible for there to be something other than God and His creations in existence? In other words, do you think there could ever be a third substance that is neither God nor that which God created?

 

[Valekhai]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist? I mean, what would it be made from?

This is sometimes one of my intellectual hang-ups when it comes to believing in God.
Have you heard of panentheism (no, not pantheism, although that might be somewhat applicable; panentheism is a bit more compatible with Christian theology, I think)?

 

[ALoveDivine]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist?

Because God is not just some floating mist of energy, he is a tri-personal mind, infinite both in duration and attribute. He is self-existent, the eternal source of all things. One of his attributes is a free will. He exercised this attribute, his free will, to create both a spiritual and a physical universe, for the purpose, it seems, of exercising and magnifying his attributes. His wisdom and power in creation, his providence in sustaining and guiding his creation, his justice and wrath in damnation, and his mercy and grace in redemption.

For all I know God could be creating whole new universes all the time. I have no reason to think so, but who knows. As 4-dimensional beings confined to this physical universe, it is very hard for us to understand eternal things. For example, did God go a whole eternity and then, at one moment, just decide to create everything? Boggles the mind. What boggles the mind more is that time itself is a characteristic of this physical universe, so the whole prior question is in fact meaningless, because no moments and no time existed prior to God creating the universe.

Some things we will just not understand right now. I personally can't wait to see God face-to-face on the New Earth and spend eternity asking these kind of questions

 

[JGG]

Because God is not just some floating mist of energy, he is a tri-personal mind, infinite both in duration and attribute.

I think this contains the same quesiton. If God is infinite, how could anything not be God?

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist? I mean, what would it be made from?

We don't really know. We do know that God is eternal without beginning or end. This boggles our mind because we live in a universe where things begin, and things end, and time exists. On the other side, things could be very different - no such thing as time for example.

If God is omnipotent then he can create things right?

 

[Faulty]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist? I mean, what would it be made from?

It's all made from the matter God created.

It's one of the perks of being God as He gets to speak things into existance, which is something you and I never get to experience.

 

[elopez]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist? I mean, what would it be made from?

God is immaterial so there is nothing of which God is "made" from. Another reason why He is said to be eternal.

And yes, there is nothing except God in existence without creation. It is the creation ex nihilo.

 

[PureDose]

If in the real beginning there was God, how could anything except God exist? I mean, what would it be made from?

We create our own virtual worlds every night when we dream. We create people, we create events, we create material substances which to us, at the time is all very real.

When we create these things we create them out of our own mind and our own imagination, though for us, we have templates to use from the world around us. So, the difference being, it is not truly novel worlds which we create in our dreams.

 

[JGG]

It is clearly illogical to mention a moment 'before' time, since there would be no time prior to the creation of the universe (there is no time before time). God is atemporal without the universe as He is eternal and created the universe.

Well yes, it's illogical, but that's the concept we're stuck working with. If God created the universe then It necessarily existed before it. The idea of atemporal itself is mind-bending.

 

[Edward the Theist]

This is sometimes one of my intellectual hang-ups when it comes to believing in God.
Have you heard of panentheism (no, not pantheism, although that might be somewhat applicable; panentheism is a bit more compatible with Christian theology, I think)?

Yes, I've read up on it some. I am suggesting acosmic monism. That is that the universe is not real; only God is real. The universe is some kind of sub-real creation on the part of God, much like a dream is for a human being.

< Staff Edit >

Because God is not just some floating mist of energy, he is a tri-personal mind, infinite both in duration and attribute. He is self-existent, the eternal source of all things. One of his attributes is a free will. He exercised this attribute, his free will, to create both a spiritual and a physical universe, for the purpose, it seems, of exercising and magnifying his attributes. His wisdom and power in creation, his providence in sustaining and guiding his creation, his justice and wrath in damnation, and his mercy and grace in redemption.

For all I know God could be creating whole new universes all the time. I have no reason to think so, but who knows. As 4-dimensional beings confined to this physical universe, it is very hard for us to understand eternal things. For example, did God go a whole eternity and then, at one moment, just decide to create everything? Boggles the mind. What boggles the mind more is that time itself is a characteristic of this physical universe, so the whole prior question is in fact meaningless, because no moments and no time existed prior to God creating the universe.

Some things we will just not understand right now. I personally can't wait to see God face-to-face on the New Earth and spend eternity asking these kind of questions

I don't think you've really thought eternity through. Or else maybe you are so narcissistic you actually believe you could stand an eternity as yourself--even with all your limitations. I couldn't. I'd rather not exist than to exist eternally with any form of limitation whatsoever. But of course, if I ever came to a place where I had no limitations, I'd be God, wouldn't I?

The greatest heaven you can hope for aside from being God is to not exist at all. And if you grown into God, you (as you understand the concept of "you" will cease to exist). One way or another, you're going to stop existing when you die.

Sorry to be the one who farted in your elevator.

I think this contains the same quesiton. If God is infinite, how could anything not be God?

Exactly. If God has always been, and God was all the existed before anything else existed, how could anything not be God? The Christian God is an impossibility. It has to be. The line between God and His creation, no matter how infintesimal it might be, is still an area that is neither God nor His creation, and that is simply absurd.

Christians will only find proof of God at the expense of losing their religion. Sorry to say.

And one other thing. It's disingenuous for me to call myself anything but an atheist. I believe in God, but I don't believe in anything else, and God can't have a God, therefore, because I truly believe in God, I have to say that God does not exist. Therefore, I am an atheist. Paradoxical, huh? But that's how I know I'm on the right track: God is nothing if not paradoxical.

 

[Edward the Theist]

It's all made from the matter God created.

It's one of the perks of being God as He gets to speak things into existance, which is something you and I never get to experience.

One of the "perks" of being God. How nice it must be to have such simple faith. To see God as the head of a hierarchical system of power.

I suppose that's why Jesus said it takes the faith of a child to know God. Of course, that's Jesus for you: always ignoring the human condition, like we tend to grow up and put childish notions away. If we all followed Jesus, there'd be no human race left to follow Jesus. Fortunately, we don't. His Way sure sounds like truth--it's only fault is that it does work. When are we going to realize that.

Not that I don't love Jesus. Not that he isn't my hero, but he was suicidal, and suicidal people always have the luxury of living their lives in idealism.

And yes, there is nothing except God in existence without creation. It is the creation ex nihilo.

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Creation ex nihilo is absurd. Everyone knows that. You have to accept it on faith, but even worse, you have to start thinking magically in order to accept it, because somewhere between God and His creation which is not Him is a line, and that line is neither the creation nor God. Even if you describe it in calculus as a unbounded limit that approaches infinity, you still have the unbounded, infinitesimal state that is neither God nor His creation ex nihilo.[/font]

We create our own virtual worlds every night when we dream. We create people, we create events, we create material substances which to us, at the time is all very real.

When we create these things we create them out of our own mind and our own imagination, though for us, we have templates to use from the world around us. So, the difference being, it is not truly novel worlds which we create in our dreams.

Well, that's my point: The universe and everything in it is made from the substance of God. It is mental, not physical, but it is God-mental, and to us that seems physical, just as our dreams are the physical reality of our dream characters.

 

[JGG]

And one other thing. It's disingenuous for me to call myself anything but an atheist. I believe in God, but I don't believe in anything else, and God can't have a God, therefore, because I truly believe in God, I have to say that God does not exist. Therefore, I am an atheist. Paradoxical, huh? But that's how I know I'm on the right track: God is nothing if not paradoxical.

I don't disagree. I've always seen the flip side of my particular views to be pantheism, and basically see them as the same thing from a different perspective.

 

[elopez]

Well yes, it's illogical, but that's the concept we're stuck working with. If God created the universe then It necessarily existed before it. The idea of atemporal itself is mind-bending.

Yes the idea of atemporal is mind boggling but again there cannot be a concept of "before" in a atemporal state of existence. So what we're actually stuck with is an atemporal being without creation and a temporal being with creation, which makes more sense according to the Trinity (The Father remains atemporal with creation as He did without creation. The Son became temporal with creation as he created and was incarnated.)

 

[elopez]

Creation ex nihilo is absurd. Everyone knows that. You have to accept it on faith, but even worse, you have to start thinking magically in order to accept it, because somewhere between God and His creation which is not Him is a line, and that line is neither the creation nor God. Even if you describe it in calculus as a unbounded limit that approaches infinity, you still have the unbounded, infinitesimal state that is neither God nor His creation ex nihilo.[/font]

You say creation ex nihilo is absurd but what support is there for such? In other words, if you're going to argue against a creation ex nihilo, then why, and on what grounds? As of now you are simply claiming creation ex nihilo is false without showing how that is so. If everyone knew this, then it would go without saying and you wouldn't have to explain yourself. Yet you do indeed have to explain yourself.

Again, creation ex nihilo means there was no pre - existent matter or energy for God to create with. This idea can be more concisely put forward as something coming from nothing. Even physics supports this idea. Yes we can say that adding God to the equation is a matter of faith, but when it comes to the actual concept of something from nothing modern physics supports this completely.

I noticed you were saying this to another poster. What exactly is this "line"? What is it that is neither God or His creation?

 

[JGG]

Yes the idea of atemporal is mind boggling but again there cannot be a concept of "before" in a atemporal state of existence.

We also don't know that there even is anything like "atemporal state of existence." How would that work?

 

[elopez]

We also don't know that there even is anything like "atemporal state of existence." How would that work?

Well, either time is eternal and the question is answered easily, or time had a beginning. If time had a beginning it did such when the universe began to exist. So without the universe, there would be no time.

Yet without the universe there is God, or at least that's how I see it.

 

[Edward the Theist]

We also don't know that there even is anything like "atemporal state of existence." How would that work?

It is common sense; think about it: If there is no past, and there isn't; it doesn't exist anymore, and there is no future; there isn't; it hasn't happened yet, then all there is is an eternal present--even for us mere humans.

Time is an illusion. There is and always has been, and always will be, an atemporal state of existence. That's all there "really" is. It has always been this way; it will never change. Even God can't make "real" time.