I just rechecked the thread. You didn't list 3 verses where they will be alive in the fire.
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If God loves us, why does he send us to hell?
- Thread starter Ohdaeng77
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dollarsbill
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Here ya go.
Luke 16:22-25 (NASB)
22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
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Thank you.
The first is a reference in a parable, not an explanation of what happens in hell.
The second 2 are images from the Book of Revelation. This is called Apocalyptic Literature. Here is an explanation of Apocalyptic Literature:
How does Apocalyptic Literature Work?
Apocalyptic literature is written in symbolism, poetry, and imageries, as well as in an Old Testament prophecy style (Matt. 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21; Rev. 1:2-4; 19:9; 22:7-19), all woven as a tapestry to describe literal events but with a twist, using language with symbols that are cataclysmic, words that are exaggerated, and metaphors that may be lost to a 21st century person. Such imagery is often used for God’s judgments and the end of days. These forms of language (genre) are often combinations of narrative (story form) and prose (poetic) written in vivid imagery and rhythmical phrases that are intended to express a deeper but not necessarily a hidden meaning that a “regular” word would not convey. Take our English word, “bull.” It normally means a male cow, but in context, it refers to not just a farm animal, but also could mean someone who is aggressive, an upswing in the stock market, someone who is clumsy, or slang for someone who is telling a lie. This simple word can be exaggerated for a purpose just as Daniel and most of Revelation uses language to express a point. Apocalyptic writing is also found in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Matthew 24.
Apocalypticliterature is a combination of narrative and prose written in vivid imagery and poetic phrases that are intended to exaggerate for a purpose, such as in Daniel and most of Revelation. Apocalyptic writing is a more specific form of prophecy. Apocalyptic writing is a type of literature that warns us of future events, but the full meaning is hidden to us for the time being. Apocalyptic writing is almost a “secret,” giving us glimpses of what is to come through the use of symbols and imagery. We may not know the meanings now, but time will flush them out.
Metaphors are very evident in apocalyptic writing, which is also more than a specific form of prophecy. Apocalyptic writing is a type of literature that uses vivid symbolism at the same time, it encourages and reassures the reader that God is in control and they do not need to fear as long as they fear Him. Apocalyptic writing is almost a “secret,” giving us glimpses of what is to come through the use of symbols and imagery. It is secret only because when we read it in English (or any language that is not 1st century Greek) nearly 2,000 years later, we do not understand it. Will someone 2,000 years from now realize that a “bull market” does not mean that a farmer’s truck broke down and a cow got loose in a store? Or, when Jesus says He is the bread of life (John 6:35) does that mean we only find Him in a bakery? Does it mean Jesus is a door, a light, a rock, hears sheep, or that He went to every city, or the Lord’s Supper is cannibalism (Matt. 5:14; 9:35, Luke 22:19; John 10:9, 11)? We may not always know the meanings now, but time will flush them out; we can know a lot more if we just take some time to research it. The key to unlocking the code of Revelation is simple; just ask, what did it mean to a first-century Jew?
Some Apocalyptic Examples
Revelation uses a lot of metaphors that tend to be “filling” to sensationalists who refuse to look them up; they would rather read in their skewed ideas. What we need to know is that symbols in Revelation had specific meanings for a first-century Jew or Greek, like when we might say “it is raining cat and dogs.” This does not mean to be careful not to step on a poodle. These are metaphors; they are not to be taken literally but at the same time, they are not to be taken lightly. They should be taken as they meant then, not compared to a modern day newspaper. John was in a totalitarian, evil regime under Emperor Nero who was very much an antichrist, as in one who opposes Christ—not just one person but anyone who oppresses someone away from Him (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7). Thus, when he uses 666 or beast in Revelation, it can also refer to Nero and/or someone like a Hitler, a Mussolini, a Saddam Hussein, or someone who is yet to come; more probably, all of the above. The symbol, 666, was typical of first century Jewish apocalyptic riddles that were usually known to the audience to whom they were written; John’s readers knew who he was talking about. It was not a secret code to the hearers, only to those outside of the Church such as Roman officials who would take away their property, jobs, and even their lives for uttering blasphemy to Caesar or Rome. This was also a common way to express or warn about godlessness or those opposing Christ so they would not have to fear reprisal.
Another example in Revelation is that John also uses the language of the current Greco-Roman figures of speech which contain the succession of visions of spiritual warfare, warnings, and judgments, climaxing with the Second Coming of Christ, and finally a farewell. Yet, the figurative speech and images, although borrowed from the Old Testament, would have been clear to an educated first-century Jew. It may not be a style we are familiar with in our contemporary culture, but it was very popular from 200 BC to 200 AD. Consider that describing our modern life with cars, freeways, electronics, and computers to a first-century person would be unrecognizable and incomprehensible imageries. What we take for granted, considering what we know and what they knew, does not measure up in the understanding of one another. Revelation and its imagery were real and had application for them as they are real and have application for us, too. Much of the imagery was used to get a response from his readers, to evoke them from complacency to spiritual activity.
These images can be literal events as well as symbols. They can apply to the Church of Asia Minor, and be reapplied to us. Sometimes, John explains them; sometimes, they are vague and we may not know what they mean until that day is upon us (Rev. 1:20). Thus, there are no real mysteries other than when these events will happen, which ones have happened, and the sequence of events. The real mystery is why some of us Christians prefer sensationalism and false teaching instead of actually learning His real precepts and then growing in faith and Fruit as we are called to! However, time and sequence in apocalyptic literature were not important to a Jewish mind or to our God who wants us focused upon Him as Lord. What we learn in our preparation is far more valuable than what will come about.
Much of what is spoken of in the Old Testament for Israel and the Tribulation is found in Revelation 6-19. Its principle purpose is to reveal Christ as Lord and the end of the age. It also gives us firm instructions on how to live our lives being faithful to Christ and receiving His promises as well as His warnings. In Matthew 24, Jesus’ concern about the Tribulation is for us to be prepared and flee from it when it comes, as the EarlyChurch did. But, what do many modern Christians prefer to do? They come up with all kinds of theories that Jesus is coming back before, in the midst of, or after. Clearly, this is not important, or Jesus would have told us. What is important, which Jesus clearly told us, it is to be ready by growing in our faith, and that He is indeed coming back in His good and perfect time, regardless of our theories and ideas! Thus, it is not about being ready by coming up with more sensationalism and misleading others.
Revelation brings a lot of controversy because it is interpreted so varyingly. We need to come to apocalyptic language without a specific view or we will become construed and constrained to it and miss what God has for us. Each prophecy and image can have multiple meanings and multiple fulfillments. Each view has some ideas that are correct and some that are wrong; none of them are all wrong or all correct. Most of the Bible is very precise, but apocalyptic literature is difficult because God has not given us the final key. In addition, apocalyptic language is about relationships and events in an Oriental logic form that does not have Western philosophical chronology in mind. Hebrew logic is based on “and” and “or,” whereas western logic is “if than” or “either or;” very different. Therefore, we must beware not to read into it our current idealistic methodologies and theological frameworks. Rather, we are to focus on real, authentic, Christian faith and allow God to provide us a framework from His principles. Revelation also borrows heavily from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Psalms as well as apocryphalliterature such as 1 Enoch. Revelation is more about who opposes Christ and His principles and who is faithful and fruitful.
Interpreting Apocalyptic Literature
We have to be careful how we interpret the Bible. Most of the time, we are to take His Word literally; it means what it means and says what it says. However, in “apocalyptic” literature or genre, the language is clear, such as the word, “lamb,” which is used often. We know what a lamb is and we may know that Christ is described as a lamb, but do we also know that Jesus is the Lamb… been slain which means that Christ is the sacrifice? A lamb is the common animal that was “slain” and sacrificed for the atonement of sin and used for commerce. Jesus replaces this lamb as the ultimate sacrifice—the sacrifice for our redemption. When you see the word, Lamb, it is most likely referring to sacrifice and our Lord who offers us salvation (John 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:18-20). In contrast to the image of a lion which means Sovereign and Judge, the lamb was considered the weakest of all animals, needing constant attention and care just to survive. A lamb would die in the wild, whereas the lion would thrive. The image of the lamb was common in apocalyptic literature, also meaning victory and power through, and sometimes over death (Ex. 12:12-13; Isaiah 53:7; John 1:29; 21:15; Rev. 17:14). You can see that these images and themes have or will have history and significance.
Apocalyptic literature is written in symbolism, poetry, and imageries, as well as in an Old Testament prophecy style (Matt. 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21; Rev. 1:2-4; 19:9; 22:7-19), all woven as a tapestry to describe literal events but with a twist, using language with symbols that are cataclysmic, words that are exaggerated, and metaphors that may be lost to a 21st century person. Such imagery is often used for God’s judgments and the end of days. These forms of language (genre) are often combinations of narrative (story form) and prose (poetic) written in vivid imagery and rhythmical phrases that are intended to express a deeper but not necessarily a hidden meaning that a “regular” word would not convey. Take our English word, “bull.” It normally means a male cow, but in context, it refers to not just a farm animal, but also could mean someone who is aggressive, an upswing in the stock market, someone who is clumsy, or slang for someone who is telling a lie. This simple word can be exaggerated for a purpose just as Daniel and most of Revelation uses language to express a point. Apocalyptic writing is also found in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Matthew 24.
Apocalypticliterature is a combination of narrative and prose written in vivid imagery and poetic phrases that are intended to exaggerate for a purpose, such as in Daniel and most of Revelation. Apocalyptic writing is a more specific form of prophecy. Apocalyptic writing is a type of literature that warns us of future events, but the full meaning is hidden to us for the time being. Apocalyptic writing is almost a “secret,” giving us glimpses of what is to come through the use of symbols and imagery. We may not know the meanings now, but time will flush them out.
Metaphors are very evident in apocalyptic writing, which is also more than a specific form of prophecy. Apocalyptic writing is a type of literature that uses vivid symbolism at the same time, it encourages and reassures the reader that God is in control and they do not need to fear as long as they fear Him. Apocalyptic writing is almost a “secret,” giving us glimpses of what is to come through the use of symbols and imagery. It is secret only because when we read it in English (or any language that is not 1st century Greek) nearly 2,000 years later, we do not understand it. Will someone 2,000 years from now realize that a “bull market” does not mean that a farmer’s truck broke down and a cow got loose in a store? Or, when Jesus says He is the bread of life (John 6:35) does that mean we only find Him in a bakery? Does it mean Jesus is a door, a light, a rock, hears sheep, or that He went to every city, or the Lord’s Supper is cannibalism (Matt. 5:14; 9:35, Luke 22:19; John 10:9, 11)? We may not always know the meanings now, but time will flush them out; we can know a lot more if we just take some time to research it. The key to unlocking the code of Revelation is simple; just ask, what did it mean to a first-century Jew?
Some Apocalyptic Examples
Revelation uses a lot of metaphors that tend to be “filling” to sensationalists who refuse to look them up; they would rather read in their skewed ideas. What we need to know is that symbols in Revelation had specific meanings for a first-century Jew or Greek, like when we might say “it is raining cat and dogs.” This does not mean to be careful not to step on a poodle. These are metaphors; they are not to be taken literally but at the same time, they are not to be taken lightly. They should be taken as they meant then, not compared to a modern day newspaper. John was in a totalitarian, evil regime under Emperor Nero who was very much an antichrist, as in one who opposes Christ—not just one person but anyone who oppresses someone away from Him (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7). Thus, when he uses 666 or beast in Revelation, it can also refer to Nero and/or someone like a Hitler, a Mussolini, a Saddam Hussein, or someone who is yet to come; more probably, all of the above. The symbol, 666, was typical of first century Jewish apocalyptic riddles that were usually known to the audience to whom they were written; John’s readers knew who he was talking about. It was not a secret code to the hearers, only to those outside of the Church such as Roman officials who would take away their property, jobs, and even their lives for uttering blasphemy to Caesar or Rome. This was also a common way to express or warn about godlessness or those opposing Christ so they would not have to fear reprisal.
Another example in Revelation is that John also uses the language of the current Greco-Roman figures of speech which contain the succession of visions of spiritual warfare, warnings, and judgments, climaxing with the Second Coming of Christ, and finally a farewell. Yet, the figurative speech and images, although borrowed from the Old Testament, would have been clear to an educated first-century Jew. It may not be a style we are familiar with in our contemporary culture, but it was very popular from 200 BC to 200 AD. Consider that describing our modern life with cars, freeways, electronics, and computers to a first-century person would be unrecognizable and incomprehensible imageries. What we take for granted, considering what we know and what they knew, does not measure up in the understanding of one another. Revelation and its imagery were real and had application for them as they are real and have application for us, too. Much of the imagery was used to get a response from his readers, to evoke them from complacency to spiritual activity.
These images can be literal events as well as symbols. They can apply to the Church of Asia Minor, and be reapplied to us. Sometimes, John explains them; sometimes, they are vague and we may not know what they mean until that day is upon us (Rev. 1:20). Thus, there are no real mysteries other than when these events will happen, which ones have happened, and the sequence of events. The real mystery is why some of us Christians prefer sensationalism and false teaching instead of actually learning His real precepts and then growing in faith and Fruit as we are called to! However, time and sequence in apocalyptic literature were not important to a Jewish mind or to our God who wants us focused upon Him as Lord. What we learn in our preparation is far more valuable than what will come about.
Much of what is spoken of in the Old Testament for Israel and the Tribulation is found in Revelation 6-19. Its principle purpose is to reveal Christ as Lord and the end of the age. It also gives us firm instructions on how to live our lives being faithful to Christ and receiving His promises as well as His warnings. In Matthew 24, Jesus’ concern about the Tribulation is for us to be prepared and flee from it when it comes, as the EarlyChurch did. But, what do many modern Christians prefer to do? They come up with all kinds of theories that Jesus is coming back before, in the midst of, or after. Clearly, this is not important, or Jesus would have told us. What is important, which Jesus clearly told us, it is to be ready by growing in our faith, and that He is indeed coming back in His good and perfect time, regardless of our theories and ideas! Thus, it is not about being ready by coming up with more sensationalism and misleading others.
Revelation brings a lot of controversy because it is interpreted so varyingly. We need to come to apocalyptic language without a specific view or we will become construed and constrained to it and miss what God has for us. Each prophecy and image can have multiple meanings and multiple fulfillments. Each view has some ideas that are correct and some that are wrong; none of them are all wrong or all correct. Most of the Bible is very precise, but apocalyptic literature is difficult because God has not given us the final key. In addition, apocalyptic language is about relationships and events in an Oriental logic form that does not have Western philosophical chronology in mind. Hebrew logic is based on “and” and “or,” whereas western logic is “if than” or “either or;” very different. Therefore, we must beware not to read into it our current idealistic methodologies and theological frameworks. Rather, we are to focus on real, authentic, Christian faith and allow God to provide us a framework from His principles. Revelation also borrows heavily from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Psalms as well as apocryphalliterature such as 1 Enoch. Revelation is more about who opposes Christ and His principles and who is faithful and fruitful.
Interpreting Apocalyptic Literature
We have to be careful how we interpret the Bible. Most of the time, we are to take His Word literally; it means what it means and says what it says. However, in “apocalyptic” literature or genre, the language is clear, such as the word, “lamb,” which is used often. We know what a lamb is and we may know that Christ is described as a lamb, but do we also know that Jesus is the Lamb… been slain which means that Christ is the sacrifice? A lamb is the common animal that was “slain” and sacrificed for the atonement of sin and used for commerce. Jesus replaces this lamb as the ultimate sacrifice—the sacrifice for our redemption. When you see the word, Lamb, it is most likely referring to sacrifice and our Lord who offers us salvation (John 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:18-20). In contrast to the image of a lion which means Sovereign and Judge, the lamb was considered the weakest of all animals, needing constant attention and care just to survive. A lamb would die in the wild, whereas the lion would thrive. The image of the lamb was common in apocalyptic literature, also meaning victory and power through, and sometimes over death (Ex. 12:12-13; Isaiah 53:7; John 1:29; 21:15; Rev. 17:14). You can see that these images and themes have or will have history and significance.
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The wages of sin is death, the penalty is eternal destruction, the road is wide that leads to destruction, unless you repent you will likewise perish, The destruction of Sodom serves as an example, the soul that sins shall die. You shall surely die. Sin entered the world through Adam, and death through sin.
Couldn't be any clearer.
Couldn't be any clearer.
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dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but after humans die they are still alive.
Why eternal. Why not simply 'destruction'? Your argument doesn't make any sense at all.
Those of Sodom still live.
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After humans die they are still alive, is that you said?
I buried my father last month. Help me dig him up, and hurry!
I buried my father last month. Help me dig him up, and hurry!
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The proper way to read the bible is in a way that does not torture the english (or greek) language.
"After humans die they are still alive". No, after humans die, they are dead. Not alive.
But, I'm listening. Quote the bible verse that says "after humans die they are still alive." Please.
"After humans die they are still alive". No, after humans die, they are dead. Not alive.
But, I'm listening. Quote the bible verse that says "after humans die they are still alive." Please.
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dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Revelation 20:12 (NASB)
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
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Try again. This is a judgment scene. This obviously will happen on judgment day, the day the dead are resurrected to life. They aren't dead while they are standing. They have been resurrected to life, they are alive. They are no longer dead.
Do you have any other verses that you think show that humans are alive after they are dead?
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Meh, read my reply. So you don't have any other verses that say "The dead are not really dead, they are alive"?
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dollarsbill
Well-Known Member
Luke 16 The rich man died and was in torment in the flame. He was very much alive.
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That was a parable, a story.
Do you have any verses that say "the dead are not dead, they are alive"?
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Here's an article to help understand parables:
The Parables of Jesus
When reading the parables it is important to not get bogged down in the details of the story. The main point is what counts. A storyteller doesn't have to make every detail fit perfectly. Each parable will typically present a single point. Look for the main point and don't get bogged down in the details.
The Parables of Jesus
When reading the parables it is important to not get bogged down in the details of the story. The main point is what counts. A storyteller doesn't have to make every detail fit perfectly. Each parable will typically present a single point. Look for the main point and don't get bogged down in the details.
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dollarsbill
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Avoid the details? Oh my.
And the main point is that the rich man died and is still alive in the flame and in EXTREME torment. He's begging for mercy but is told that it's too late. It mentions that he is in the flame, and 3 times mentions he is in torment. And he is VERY much alive. I suggest that you pay more attention to the details.
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