If God loves us, why does he send us to hell?

[Ohdaeng77]

okay, so one of my youth kids asked my youth pastor this question. I'm a college student helping out with the youth praise//youth teacher.

I don't want to write out the whole answer... or rather my answer, because i'm not sure if it's biblical or not, and it would be lengthy.

The jyst of it is this though, God gives us a choice... to accept his gift or deny his gift. Gifts are not required by the offerer, and also the receiver can accept or deny the gift. Him giving us a choice is true love, rather than him forcing us to accept. It is ultimately our choice on whether or not we go to hell or spend eternity with Him. Also God is pure holiness, he cannot accept sin, which is why Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the cross which was the ONLY way we could be forgiven of our sins. All in all, God does not SEND you to hell, you choose your path?

Sounds great in my opinion, but i don't know if it's biblical!! Need some help here.

Also I would give an example... like in a relationship. True love isn't shown through forcing each other to do things, it comes from choice. Given a choice shows feedback from both recipients, the offerer and the one that has to make a choice. Forcing doesn't show anything, it just shows shelfishness.

but yes, much help needed here! Let me know if I stand correct, if not please correct me!. I wanna to feed my youth truth.

 

[Samuel Coleridge]

okay, so one of my youth kids asked my youth pastor this question. I'm a college student helping out with the youth praise//youth teacher.

I don't want to write out the whole answer... or rather my answer, because i'm not sure if it's biblical or not, and it would be lengthy.

The jyst of it is this though, God gives us a choice... to accept his gift or deny his gift. Gifts are not required by the offerer, and also the receiver can accept or deny the gift. Him giving us a choice is true love, rather than him forcing us to accept. It is ultimately our choice on whether or not we go to hell or spend eternity with Him. Also God is pure holiness, he cannot accept sin, which is why Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the cross which was the ONLY way we could be forgiven of our sins. All in all, God does not SEND you to hell, you choose your path?

Sounds great in my opinion, but i don't know if it's biblical!! Need some help here.

Also I would give an example... like in a relationship. True love isn't shown through forcing each other to do things, it comes from choice. Given a choice shows feedback from both recipients, the offerer and the one that has to make a choice. Forcing doesn't show anything, it just shows shelfishness.

but yes, much help needed here! Let me know if I stand correct, if not please correct me!. I wanna to feed my youth truth.

Now that you are a college student

you can look back when you were 12 or 14 and

see that there are just some things

then you could not understand at that time in your life

that you can now.

Pretty good answer.

 

[elopez]

okay, so one of my youth kids asked my youth pastor this question. I'm a college student helping out with the youth praise//youth teacher.

I don't want to write out the whole answer... or rather my answer, because i'm not sure if it's biblical or not, and it would be lengthy.

The jyst of it is this though, God gives us a choice... to accept his gift or deny his gift. Gifts are not required by the offerer, and also the receiver can accept or deny the gift. Him giving us a choice is true love, rather than him forcing us to accept. It is ultimately our choice on whether or not we go to hell or spend eternity with Him. Also God is pure holiness, he cannot accept sin, which is why Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the cross which was the ONLY way we could be forgiven of our sins. All in all, God does not SEND you to hell, you choose your path?

Sounds great in my opinion, but i don't know if it's biblical!! Need some help here.

Also I would give an example... like in a relationship. True love isn't shown through forcing each other to do things, it comes from choice. Given a choice shows feedback from both recipients, the offerer and the one that has to make a choice. Forcing doesn't show anything, it just shows shelfishness.

but yes, much help needed here! Let me know if I stand correct, if not please correct me!. I wanna to feed my youth truth.

I do not view salvation as a gift we choose for ourselves since that implies man is able to save himself, rather salvation is originated from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We do not have the ability to choose to accept salvation as it is offered of our own will, since through Adam's original sin our human nature has been corrupted as well (Isiah 64:6; Romans 5:12). It is not just our mind that is corrupt but our soul, in that we are enable of coming to faith on our own terms.

With salvation being something that man is unable to merit of his own will, once the Spirit of God comes to change an individual's heart/mind he cannot resist such grace, so if God elects an individual unto salvation he cannot fall from that salvation (John 6:37; 44-45; 65). He cannot resist because the love of God overwhelms the individual so intensely change is inevitable. We can say the drawing of God is based on power but not as to coerce an individual, since the will of man is going to ultimately adore God. Put another way, the effect of such grace is effective enough that it will always produce salvation, meaning that God will not fail at saving whom He pleases.

In my opinion the idea that salvation is our choice is not Biblical, and instead believe in salvation as being God's merciful choice to grant to whom He pleases, as Titus 3:5 states, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit."

The question is then asked "why would a loving God send people to hell?" First I would question what it even means that God "sends" someone to hell, as the assumption is just pretty vague in the first place. If one is facing eternal punishment then it must be a fair assessment, and so God only plays part in the desicion that one is eternally damned. What God does not play a part of is the actuality of man's sinfulness, for man will sin out of his naturally acquired nature to do so. Man sins because he wants to, and sin separates us from God (Isiah 59:2), so we constitute our own eternal damnation.

So I agree that love is not forced but this is not what God does in order to save man. It is just that the call of God is so effective man cannot help but follow. If God did grant us the choice of salvation, then it would be conditional love above anything else. So in essence you're saying true love is conditional love. Could you support that idea? The idea that God chooses some for salvation irregardless of their sinful actions, on the other hand, means God's love is unconditional, that man is saved by God without any conditions, which I see as the more Biblical view. But again that is just my opinion.

 

[Verticordious]

okay, so one of my youth kids asked my youth pastor this question. I'm a college student helping out with the youth praise//youth teacher.

I don't want to write out the whole answer... or rather my answer, because i'm not sure if it's biblical or not, and it would be lengthy.

The jyst of it is this though, God gives us a choice... to accept his gift or deny his gift. Gifts are not required by the offerer, and also the receiver can accept or deny the gift. Him giving us a choice is true love, rather than him forcing us to accept. It is ultimately our choice on whether or not we go to hell or spend eternity with Him. Also God is pure holiness, he cannot accept sin, which is why Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the cross which was the ONLY way we could be forgiven of our sins. All in all, God does not SEND you to hell, you choose your path?

Sounds great in my opinion, but i don't know if it's biblical!! Need some help here.

Also I would give an example... like in a relationship. True love isn't shown through forcing each other to do things, it comes from choice. Given a choice shows feedback from both recipients, the offerer and the one that has to make a choice. Forcing doesn't show anything, it just shows shelfishness.

but yes, much help needed here! Let me know if I stand correct, if not please correct me!. I wanna to feed my youth truth.

The whole issue of freewill has been debated endless on the forum, so I'm not going to bother addressing it again here. Go read through some of the other threads if you want to see what people have to say about it. I will say this, however, if choosing is required for salvation, and you don't choose, then what happens? You spend eternity in Hell. If you can't choose, but "try" to chose anyway, what happens? Nothing. I think the choice is pretty obvious.

 

[dwrancho144]

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those
who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the
resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all
will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits,
after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end,
when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has
abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until
He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be
abolished is death. (I Cor. 15:20-26)

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or
authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He
is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head
of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from
the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in
Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made
peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether
things on earth or things in heaven. (Col. 1:15-20)

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope
on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of
believers. (1 Tim. 4:10)

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only,
but also for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under
the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To
Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and
glory and dominion forever and ever." (Rev. 5:13)

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of
the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the
grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like
that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 5:15-21)

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and
there is no other. " I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth
from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every
knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. "They will say of
Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to
Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. "In the LORD all
the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory. (Isaiah 45:22-25)

...being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:8-11.)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will,
according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to
an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the
summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things
upon the earth (Ephesians 1:8b-10)

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to
all. (Romans 11:32)

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing
of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of
its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the
creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption
into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that
the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together
until now. (Romans 8:19-22)

He spoke another parable to them, "The kingdom of heaven is like
leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all
leavened." (Matt. 13:33)

Even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You
have given Him, He may give eternal life. (John 17:2)

 

[cubinity]

Because when we pray in faith, God gives us what we ask for, and some people are, well, just asking for it!

 

[Samuel Coleridge]

I like my answer best of all.

 

[cubinity]

I like my answer best of all.

Well, here's a big ol' pat on the back for you, pal!

 

[Ohdaeng77]

hm. well i'm just wondering what does the bible say about this?? is my answer biblical or is it not??

 

[cubinity]

hm. well i'm just wondering what does the bible say about this?? is my answer biblical or is it not??

The problem is that there are assumptions in the question that are interpreted radically different by different people.

Is there a hell?
Is this hell eternal?
Is this hell without any redeeming value?
Is it God that does the sending to this hell?
Are there only some of us that go to this hell, or do all of us?
Is being sent here an unloving expression?
Do we really have any choice about it?

There's more, but that's what I got off the top of my head...

 

[Walter Kovacs]

“Christ is the judge; and yet, from another point of view, it is we who pronounce judgment upon ourselves. If anyone is in hell, it is not because God has imprisoned him there, but because that is where he himself has chosen to be. The lost in hell are self-condemned, self-enslaved; it has rightly been said that the doors of hell are locked from the inside. How can a God of love accept that even a single one of the creatures whom he has made should remain for ever in hell? There is a mystery here which, from our standpoint in this present life, we cannot hope to fathom. The best we can do is to hold in balance two truths, contrasting but not contradictory. First, God has given free will to man, and so to all eternity it lies in man’s power to reject God. Secondly, love signifies compassion, involvement, and so, if there are any who remain eternally in hell, in some sense God is also there with them. It is written in the Psalms, ‘If I go down to hell, thou art there also’ (139:7); and St. Isaac the Syrian says, ‘It is wrong to imagine that sinners in hell are cut off from the love of God.’ Divine love is everywhere, and rejects no one. But we on our side are free to reject divine love; we cannot however, do so without inflicting pain on ourselves, and the more final our rejection the more final our suffering” (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, pp. 135-136).

"Holy wrath” sounds like an oxymoron/contradiction to the contemporary mind, but it is an inseparable part of the biblical portrayal of God’s holiness. How should a holy God respond to evil? Complete indifference to evil by anyone amounts to moral bankruptcy, but this would be especially so for God. This is widely recognized even by atheists, agnostics, and philosophers who frequently ask “Why does God allow it?!” of evil. God's implacable opposition to every form of moral evil is disturbing and even offensive to so many, largely because this kind of opposition inevitably reaches the human heart that beats within. It reaches into you; it reaches into me. It seems that God cannot win the popularity game with us. If he does not resist evil, he is evil. If he resists evil, he resists us and we resent him for that. God's anger is not the uncontrollable and disreputable outburst of passion that human anger often is, but instead is a holy and blameless opposition to all that is destructive of selves, societies, and environments (i.e. sin). Yet God does not merely desire to oppose and chasten; he desires to heal us. Still, mercy must not be separate from opposition to evil, or God is indifferent to evil once again. God’s holiness is a holy wrath as equally as it is a holy love or it is bankrupt because it is impotent to eradicate evil. Traditional Christian eschatology sees this tension as having eternal consequences. It is hard to see how God could provide a heaven for anyone if it included those who eternally would refuse to turn to evil. It is hard to imagine a heaven with malevolent hatred, eternal strife, jealousy, child molestation, theft, etc. Even heaven cannot be without all such things unless all those who populate it are willing to at least approximate doing the will of God rather than their own while residing there. If God’s policy is merely to forgive and let everyone continue to live as sinfully as they wish throughout eternity, then everyone is going to hell! (or at the very least, heaven would be no better than the present world). God’s call, often ignored, doubted, partitioned, or otherwise explained away is “repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, or ye will all likewise perish.” C. S. Lewis claimed that in the final judgment there will be only two classes of people: those who say to God "Thy will be done" and those to whom God will say "thy will be done." I tend to imagine a river of tears flowing from God’s eyes in the latter case. Here yet again the holiness of God is often challenged. Especially here! Yet those who know God are more than reasonable to suspect that the judge of all the earth will judge rightly."

“Hell will not be seen as an evil, but as the place where those who reject Christ are still cared for by Christ –and not simply as Lord and Judge but as Savior and Healer… we should not forget that God placed upon Cain a sign for his protection, even though he was condemned to wander in a far country… God will punish our transgressions, but he will not remove from us his steadfast love or be false to his faithfulness (Ps 89:31-34)” (“Heaven and Hell” in Bloesch, Donald, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 2, pp. 211-234)

“Man is in hell not because God is absent but because he is present, and therefore man is constantly reminded of his guilt and infamy. Hell is exclusion from communion with God, but not exclusion from the presence of God (we interpret 2 Thess 1:9 as referring to an exclusion from man’s side but not from God’s side. Man shuts himself off from the salvation of the Lord and from the glory of his might, but he cannot escape from this glory (Phil 2:9-11). Cf. Revelation 14:10 which speaks of sinners in hell being tormented ‘in the presence of the Lamb…’”

 

[Uncle Floyd]

okay, so one of my youth kids asked my youth pastor this question. I'm a college student helping out with the youth praise//youth teacher.

I don't want to write out the whole answer... or rather my answer, because i'm not sure if it's biblical or not, and it would be lengthy.

The jyst of it is this though, God gives us a choice... to accept his gift or deny his gift. Gifts are not required by the offerer, and also the receiver can accept or deny the gift. Him giving us a choice is true love, rather than him forcing us to accept. It is ultimately our choice on whether or not we go to hell or spend eternity with Him. Also God is pure holiness, he cannot accept sin, which is why Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the cross which was the ONLY way we could be forgiven of our sins. All in all, God does not SEND you to hell, you choose your path?

Sounds great in my opinion, but i don't know if it's biblical!! Need some help here.

Also I would give an example... like in a relationship. True love isn't shown through forcing each other to do things, it comes from choice. Given a choice shows feedback from both recipients, the offerer and the one that has to make a choice. Forcing doesn't show anything, it just shows shelfishness.

but yes, much help needed here! Let me know if I stand correct, if not please correct me!. I wanna to feed my youth truth.

Stop giving them this Gospel According to Oprah nonsense and present the Gospel to them: Kids, you're sinners. As sinners, you've made yourselves enemies of God and are in grave danger of facing His wrath on Judgement Day.

Because there is nothing you can do to work off your sins or make up for them, God showed mercy to you in that He became a man, lived a perfect life without sin, and died to make atonement for your sins so that His righteousness could be imputed to your account.

Now, He makes you the offer that if you will repent of your sins and accept by faith His atonement on the cross on your behalf, He will forgive your sins and adopt you as His children.

None of this "God doesn't send you to Hell, you make the choice to go to Hell", "accept Jesus", or "God is love and let's just ignore all of His other character attributes" nonsense. Give them the Biblical Gospel.

This is one reason I hate youth groups as much as I do. It's all geared toward entertaining the kids and then, if the Gospel ever is presented, it's tap danced around to the point that it's virtually unrecognizable as the Gospel. "Well, yeah, God is Holy but nevermind that because He's loving. He's Righteous, but you don't have to worry about that because He's forgiving. Yeah, there's a Hell, but God loves you far too much to ever punish you for your sin".

Why are people who work with children in the church so afraid to tell them the truth? And then why are they so surprised that these kids end up being false converts and forget all about Jesus the moment they're out of earshot of the church?

 

[Samuel Coleridge]

hm. well i'm just wondering what does the bible say about this?? is my answer biblical or is it not??

It will not matter

If you cannot understand it

they will not understand it.

 

[Samuel Coleridge]

All these people who have posted on here do not understand it.

 

[cubinity]

Stop giving them this Gospel According to Oprah nonsense and present the Gospel to them: Kids, you're sinners. As sinners, you've made yourselves enemies of God and are in grave danger of facing His wrath on Judgement Day.

Because there is nothing you can do to work off your sins or make up for them, God showed mercy to you in that He became a man, lived a perfect life without sin, and died to make atonement for your sins so that His righteousness could be imputed to your account.

Now, He makes you the offer that if you will repent of your sins and accept by faith His atonement on the cross on your behalf, He will forgive your sins and adopt you as His children.

None of this "God doesn't send you to Hell, you make the choice to go to Hell", "accept Jesus", or "God is love and let's just ignore all of His other character attributes" nonsense. Give them the Biblical Gospel.

This is one reason I hate youth groups as much as I do. It's all geared toward entertaining the kids and then, if the Gospel ever is presented, it's tap danced around to the point that it's virtually unrecognizable as the Gospel. "Well, yeah, God is Holy but nevermind that because He's loving. He's Righteous, but you don't have to worry about that because He's forgiving. Yeah, there's a Hell, but God loves you far too much to ever punish you for your sin".

Why are people who work with children in the church so afraid to tell them the truth? And then why are they so surprised that these kids end up being false converts and forget all about Jesus the moment they're out of earshot of the church?

Wow. Feel free to exchange the Gospel according to Oprah with the Gospel according to WBC at any time, huh?

Before we start the hell-based scare tactics, it might benefit us to determine whether or not there is even such a destination, for whom such a destination is reserved, for how long, and for what purpose.

Also, I am absolutely convinced that youth falling away from the church community has far more to do with relentless criticism from self-appointed accountability "brothers" than anything to do with their theological perspectives about the afterlife.

People don't want to live in fear, and they shouldn't have to, even according to the Bible. So, when fear-mongers keep promoting interpreted though impractical threats, these self-defending young people eventually grow tired of the inconstancies and the threats and move their allegiances to the character-developing assets of other, more loving, communities.

At least, that's my thought on what you've posted here.

 

[Uncle Floyd]

Wow. Feel free to exchange the Gospel according to Oprah with the Gospel according to WBC at any time, huh?

Before we start the hell-based scare tactics, it might benefit us to determine whether or not there is even such a destination, for whom such a destination is reserved, for how long, and for what purpose.

Also, I am absolutely convinced that youth falling away from the church community has far more to do with relentless criticism from self-appointed accountability "brothers" than anything to do with their theological perspectives about the afterlife.

People don't want to live in fear, and they shouldn't have to, even according to the Bible. So, when fear-mongers keep promoting interpreted though impractical threats, these self-defending young people eventually grow tired of the inconstancies and the threats and move their allegiances to the character-developing assets of other, more loving, communities.

At least, that's my thought on what you've posted here.

1 Cor 1:18

 

[Walter Kovacs]

*coughreadmypostforadifferentperspectiveontheafterlife*

“Christ is the judge; and yet, from another point of view, it is we who pronounce judgment upon ourselves. If anyone is in hell, it is not because God has imprisoned him there, but because that is where he himself has chosen to be. The lost in hell are self-condemned, self-enslaved; it has rightly been said that the doors of hell are locked from the inside. How can a God of love accept that even a single one of the creatures whom he has made should remain for ever in hell? There is a mystery here which, from our standpoint in this present life, we cannot hope to fathom. The best we can do is to hold in balance two truths, contrasting but not contradictory. First, God has given free will to man, and so to all eternity it lies in man’s power to reject God. Secondly, love signifies compassion, involvement, and so, if there are any who remain eternally in hell, in some sense God is also there with them. It is written in the Psalms, ‘If I go down to hell, thou art there also’ (139:7); and St. Isaac the Syrian says, ‘It is wrong to imagine that sinners in hell are cut off from the love of God.’ Divine love is everywhere, and rejects no one. But we on our side are free to reject divine love; we cannot however, do so without inflicting pain on ourselves, and the more final our rejection the more final our suffering” (Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Way, pp. 135-136).

"Holy wrath” sounds like an oxymoron/contradiction to the contemporary mind, but it is an inseparable part of the biblical portrayal of God’s holiness. How should a holy God respond to evil? Complete indifference to evil by anyone amounts to moral bankruptcy, but this would be especially so for God. This is widely recognized even by atheists, agnostics, and philosophers who frequently ask “Why does God allow it?!” of evil. God's implacable opposition to every form of moral evil is disturbing and even offensive to so many, largely because this kind of opposition inevitably reaches the human heart that beats within. It reaches into you; it reaches into me. It seems that God cannot win the popularity game with us. If he does not resist evil, he is evil. If he resists evil, he resists us and we resent him for that. God's anger is not the uncontrollable and disreputable outburst of passion that human anger often is, but instead is a holy and blameless opposition to all that is destructive of selves, societies, and environments (i.e. sin). Yet God does not merely desire to oppose and chasten; he desires to heal us. Still, mercy must not be separate from opposition to evil, or God is indifferent to evil once again. God’s holiness is a holy wrath as equally as it is a holy love or it is bankrupt because it is impotent to eradicate evil. Traditional Christian eschatology sees this tension as having eternal consequences. It is hard to see how God could provide a heaven for anyone if it included those who eternally would refuse to turn to evil. It is hard to imagine a heaven with malevolent hatred, eternal strife, jealousy, child molestation, theft, etc. Even heaven cannot be without all such things unless all those who populate it are willing to at least approximate doing the will of God rather than their own while residing there. If God’s policy is merely to forgive and let everyone continue to live as sinfully as they wish throughout eternity, then everyone is going to hell! (or at the very least, heaven would be no better than the present world). God’s call, often ignored, doubted, partitioned, or otherwise explained away is “repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, or ye will all likewise perish.” C. S. Lewis claimed that in the final judgment there will be only two classes of people: those who say to God "Thy will be done" and those to whom God will say "thy will be done." I tend to imagine a river of tears flowing from God’s eyes in the latter case. Here yet again the holiness of God is often challenged. Especially here! Yet those who know God are more than reasonable to suspect that the judge of all the earth will judge rightly."

“Hell will not be seen as an evil, but as the place where those who reject Christ are still cared for by Christ –and not simply as Lord and Judge but as Savior and Healer… we should not forget that God placed upon Cain a sign for his protection, even though he was condemned to wander in a far country… God will punish our transgressions, but he will not remove from us his steadfast love or be false to his faithfulness (Ps 89:31-34)” (“Heaven and Hell” in Bloesch, Donald, Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 2, pp. 211-234)

“Man is in hell not because God is absent but because he is present, and therefore man is constantly reminded of his guilt and infamy. Hell is exclusion from communion with God, but not exclusion from the presence of God (we interpret 2 Thess 1:9 as referring to an exclusion from man’s side but not from God’s side. Man shuts himself off from the salvation of the Lord and from the glory of his might, but he cannot escape from this glory (Phil 2:9-11). Cf. Revelation 14:10 which speaks of sinners in hell being tormented ‘in the presence of the Lamb…’”

 

[cubinity]

1 Cor 1:18

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." - 1 Cor. 1:18

Um, thanks. I am being saved, so I don't consider the cross foolishness, but the power of God...

I am, however, curious how this has anything to do with what we're discussing.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Armistead14]

The message of hell is complex. It's use is commonly mistranslated using our english terms in the bible. There's a reason you'll never find Paul once using eternal hell or torture in any of his books. If this is a real place of eternal torment for the lost, why wouldn't Paul even mention it?

Many, and rightfully so wonder why God would create such a place. What justice comes from torture. God knew everything from eternity past before he created our world. If hell is true, then he knew he would place the majority of man in hell. Only God's power could place a man in hell.

No man honestly chooses hell or would want to go there. When Christ said he was the ONLY way to heaven, when did those words take effect? Most would agree then. That limits the very nature of the gospel, because it would've doomed the majority of man to hell after he died. After Christ, the gospel spread slowly in that region, took another 400 years just for it to reach Europe, another 1000 years before it reached the outskirts of other nations, yet millions lived and died following the beliefs of their culture. Did these millions go to hell because they died without Christ?

The issue arises, Christ is the only way, yet millions never heard the gospel. Many wrongly say they will be judged another way other than Christ...well then, then Christ isn't the only way. Then the made up doctrine that children aren't accountable, another gospel teaching Christ isn't the only way. The fact is most born are raised as children to believe the religion of their country, but somehow despite their culture, they're to shed all they were taught when they reach a certain age or go to eternal torture. They will no more do that than you or I would shed our beliefs.

Then we ignore the human factor. In every culture at birth children are indoctrinated to the beliefs of that culture. A child born in Iran will be trained and taught to believe Islam, China, buddist, ect.. When a person is trained and lives in a culture where their parents teach them the religion of that culture...90% will follow trusting their parents. Somehow when they become adults, they're supposed to undo all those years of belief of their parents, grandparents, ect. If you or I were born in Iran, we would have a 90% chance of being muslim. So salvation becomes the luck of the draw. In some of these nations you would die to even preach the gospel.

It seems belief isn't about sincerity or love of God. Hitler tortured millions of jews that loved God, yet they didn't believe Christ. They prayed in their torture, they were sincere in the beliefs of their parents and culture. How sad after they died to face a God they loved to only have him cast them to hell. God will be worse than Hitler for them if hell were true. There were 1000's of tribes or cultures after Christ that never heard or regetted the gospel and the sword brought to bear on them...thus the old christian saying.."to hell with them."

Ands of course most the gospel spread with a bible in one hand and a sword in the other. Torture, fear and guilt were tools used to convert.

Anyone that would truly study hell from a greek biblical view on historical and cultural levels can easily see man mistranslated it's meaning and created a tool from pagan beliefs to control his fellow man. The evil hell of torture came about when religion and politics mixed. I spent most my life as a Baptist and believed in hell, it's teachings. When questions arose, I started doubting it. Then open study based on biblical facts, history, politics, ect...it became clear hell as a place of torture was created by man. It barely had a grip in christianity until the power of Rome took on aspects of christianity, doctrines changed...and they had what they needed to control...they also started mass torture in the name of God themselves, after all, if God can do it, why not man in God's name. Most today will say these men were wrong, yet still believe a doctrine created by them.

 

[Thomas222]

you are wrong, because your interpretation of hell is not correct. Thats okay, I use to think how you think. God does not torture innocent people, because they do not believe in Christ. Such a doctrine, is fictional not biblical, based of misconceptions of the bible, in my opinion.

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