If God is sovereign, then predestination is logical

[jayem]

I'll state right off that I don't believe in any supernatural god. I'm posting this to point out what I see as a logical inconsistency in Christianity. The Judeo-Christian tradition claims the absolute sovereignty of God. There are numerous OT and NT verses to support this idea.. A small sampling:

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth;
Daniel 4:35

The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
Psalm 103:19

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:33

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?
Lamentations 3:37

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:36

The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,
Isaiah 14:24

So, if God is the ultimate sovereign, and has a grand plan for the universe, then wouldn't that include who becomes a Christian and who doesn't? There are NT passages that appear to support predestination. Several more samples:

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Ephesians 1:4

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:11

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:65

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:29

If these passages are true, can anyone really choose to accept Jesus? And even if you believe you made the choice of your own free will, how can you know it wasn't God directing your will subconsciously? (Not to mention that another logical implication of predestination is that evangelization is useless.)

BTW, I'm not arguing for Calvinism. Strict 5 Point "TULIP" Calvinism grounds predestination in man's Total Depravity (the T in TULIP.) Which says that humans are so depraved by sin that they're unable to make a righteous decision to accept Jesus of their own free will. It's only by God's election that anyone becomes a Christian. This is a bleak and pessimistic view of human nature and has never been well accepted by most Christians. My argument also comes to the conclusion of divine election. But it's grounded in the idea of a totally sovereign God. Which is a traditional Christian belief.

 

[Oldmantook]

I'll state right off that I don't believe in any supernatural god. I'm posting this to point out what I see as a logical inconsistency in Christianity. The Judeo-Christian tradition claims the absolute sovereignty of God. There are numerous OT and NT verses to support this idea.. A small sampling:

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth;
Daniel 4:35

The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
Psalm 103:19

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:33

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?
Lamentations 3:37

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:36

The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,
Isaiah 14:24

So, if God is the ultimate sovereign, and has a grand plan for the universe, then wouldn't that include who becomes a Christian and who doesn't? There are NT passages that appear to support predestination. Several more samples:

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Ephesians 1:4

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:11

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:65

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:29

If these passages are true, can anyone really choose to accept Jesus? And even if you believe you made the choice of your own free will, how can you know it wasn't God directing your will subconsciously? (Not to mention that another logical implication of predestination is that evangelization is useless.)

BTW, I'm not arguing for Calvinism. Strict 5 Point "TULIP" Calvinism grounds predestination in man's Total Depravity (the T in TULIP.) Which says that humans are so depraved by sin that they're unable to make a righteous decision to accept Jesus of their own free will. It's only by God's election that anyone becomes a Christian. This is a bleak and pessimistic view of human nature and has never been well accepted by most Christians. My argument also comes to the conclusion of divine election. But it's grounded in the idea of a totally sovereign God. Which is a traditional Christian belief.

You are correct. God is absolutely sovereign but the Calvinist version of how all this plays out, I disagree with noting just some of the logical inconsistencies you have pointed out.

 

[agapelove]

Total Depravity is a toxic teaching. Disagree.

Agreed, though, that more Christians should learn to accept pre-destination. It's really quite arrogant how so many Christians credit themselves too much for their own salvation.

I do think there is a way we can attempt to hold God's sovereignty with our free will (as I know that is key selling point for Christians). We have the ability to make choices but we are conditioned from birth to make those choices. Call it an illusion but we are not really robots.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'll state right off that I don't believe in any supernatural god. I'm posting this to point out what I see as a logical inconsistency in Christianity. The Judeo-Christian tradition claims the absolute sovereignty of God. There are numerous OT and NT verses to support this idea.. A small sampling:

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth;
Daniel 4:35

The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
Psalm 103:19

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:33

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?
Lamentations 3:37

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:36

The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,
Isaiah 14:24

So, if God is the ultimate sovereign, and has a grand plan for the universe, then wouldn't that include who becomes a Christian and who doesn't? There are NT passages that appear to support predestination. Several more samples:

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Ephesians 1:4

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:11

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:65

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:29

If these passages are true, can anyone really choose to accept Jesus? And even if you believe you made the choice of your own free will, how can you know it wasn't God directing your will subconsciously? (Not to mention that another logical implication of predestination is that evangelization is useless.)

BTW, I'm not arguing for Calvinism. Strict 5 Point "TULIP" Calvinism grounds predestination in man's Total Depravity (the T in TULIP.) Which says that humans are so depraved by sin that they're unable to make a righteous decision to accept Jesus of their own free will. It's only by God's election that anyone becomes a Christian. This is a bleak and pessimistic view of human nature and has never been well accepted by most Christians. My argument also comes to the conclusion of divine election. But it's grounded in the idea of a totally sovereign God. Which is a traditional Christian belief.

God foreknew who would choose to believe in His Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Predestination claims He chose who would believe in His Son Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This is not what God's character tells us.

 

[keith99]

Total Depravity is a toxic teaching. Disagree.
….

One of the things I rather like about what Scripture teaches is that man is fallen. Fallen, not evil. Something that was good and still retains at least a kernel of that goodness and one would hope at least at times a desire to be good again. That is a reasonable explanation of human behavior. Total depravity is a total failure in so many ways.

 

[zippy2006]

I'll state right off that I don't believe in any supernatural god. I'm posting this to point out what I see as a logical inconsistency in Christianity. The Judeo-Christian tradition claims the absolute sovereignty of God. There are numerous OT and NT verses to support this idea.. A small sampling:

All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth;
Daniel 4:35

The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.
Psalm 103:19

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:33

Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?
Lamentations 3:37

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:36

The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,
Isaiah 14:24

So, if God is the ultimate sovereign, and has a grand plan for the universe, then wouldn't that include who becomes a Christian and who doesn't? There are NT passages that appear to support predestination. Several more samples:

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Ephesians 1:4

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:11

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:65

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:29

If these passages are true, can anyone really choose to accept Jesus? And even if you believe you made the choice of your own free will, how can you know it wasn't God directing your will subconsciously? (Not to mention that another logical implication of predestination is that evangelization is useless.)

What you're saying is that sovereignty and free will are incompatible. Traditionally Christians would say that you can have both, that God can be sovereign over truly free acts.

I realize this presents an apparent contradiction, but I won't try to anticipate objections.

BTW, I'm not arguing for Calvinism. Strict 5 Point "TULIP" Calvinism grounds predestination in man's Total Depravity (the T in TULIP.) Which says that humans are so depraved by sin that they're unable to make a righteous decision to accept Jesus of their own free will. It's only by God's election that anyone becomes a Christian. This is a bleak and pessimistic view of human nature and has never been well accepted by most Christians. My argument also comes to the conclusion of divine election. But it's grounded in the idea of a totally sovereign God. Which is a traditional Christian belief.

Some Calvinists do ground man's lack of free will in God's sovereignty.

 

[Not David]

Predestination does not necessarily mean God chose what will happen to you.

Though human behavior is based 75% in genetics and 25% in environment, it does not mean you don't have your own decisions even if it is influenced by something else.

 

[Radagast]

I'll state right off that I don't believe in any supernatural god. I'm posting this to point out what I see as a logical inconsistency in Christianity. The Judeo-Christian tradition claims the absolute sovereignty of God.

Indeed, and those who deny predestination invariably deny some aspect of the sovereignty of God.

Predestination is a traditional Christian doctrine. See here for one Catholic view (the Thomist Catholic view is even stronger).

If these passages are true, can anyone really choose to accept Jesus? And even if you believe you made the choice of your own free will, how can you know it wasn't God directing your will subconsciously?

But Christians, including Calvinists, also accept free will. It's just a question of what kind of free will (philosophy recognises different "free will" concepts).

And do you accept modern physics? Relativity says that events may be in the past for one observer and in the future for another. That implies a fairly strict determinism anyway. So what does "free will" mean to you?

 

[agapelove]

One of the things I rather like about what Scripture teaches is that man is fallen. Fallen, not evil. Something that was good and still retains at least a kernel of that goodness and one would hope at least at times a desire to be good again. That is a reasonable explanation of human behavior. Total depravity is a total failure in so many ways.

Agreed. I think though that the term "fallen", albeit somewhat true, comes from a place of scrutiny and shame. Are we fallen or have we just not reached our full potential? If sin is all about a failure to live up to some sort of divine standard and suddenly that makes us awful beings unworthy of love, then naturally we'd possess a sense of self-hatred, which is the true tragedy of sin.

Total depravity and condemning people into believing they are inherently abominable is a teaching that needs to leave the church asap.

 

[agapelove]

Predestination does not necessarily mean God chose what will happen to you.

Though human behavior is based 75% in genetics and 25% in environment, it does not mean you don't have your own decisions even if it is influenced by something else.

Jonah's decision was to not go to Ninevah. Then God threw Him into the belly of a fish until he decided he should go to Ninevah. Did Jonah truly have full discretion in his decisions?

 

[John Helpher]

So, if God is the ultimate sovereign, and has a grand plan for the universe, then wouldn't that include who becomes a Christian and who doesn't?

No. Those verses you posted are meant to communicate that God is the boss. Trying to argue against him, fight against him, trying to outsmart, or in some way work against him will ultimately fail.

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Ephesians 1:4

This is saying that God made us for a reason. Life has a purpose.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44

This is saying the source of all goodness is God. We can't have goodness separate from him. He calls everyone, all humanity, but only some of us choose to answer that call. It's like saying, "No one can come to dinner unless I ring the bell for dinner time". When I ring the bell some people will come, but some people may decide they're not hungry. That does not mean I chose who should come to dinner and who should not.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:29

This is easier to understand when you recognize that God is able to exist outside of time, space, and matter. He is able to view time in a way which we are not; past, present, and future can all be one while separate. He can move in and out of every instant of existence at will.

The phraseology in the Bible can sometimes be a little confusing, which is why it's important to interpret the concepts sincerely. Think of it this way, remember back to the future 2 when Biff gets the sports almanac and uses it to enrich himself in the future? He didn't cause those teams to win, but rather he chose them because he knew ahead of time that they would perform according to what he wanted.

And even if you believe you made the choice of your own free will, how can you know it wasn't God directing your will subconsciously?

People often think of free will in extremes; either you have no free will at all, or you have total free will, but the truth is a rather large grey area between the two. We do not have free will in the sense of choosing to change reality itself. We cannot choose to reverse the effects of gravity, or choose to change the flow of time, but we can choose how we behave. If I'm angry, I can choose to resolve the conflict in a constructive, patient way, or I can choose to become violent or bitter about it.

It is in this area of behavior, and particularly the motives for why we behave the way we do, that God is most interested. Think about it like the relationship between parents and their children; kids are often inexperienced and as a result ignorant whereas parents, who have lived longer and experienced more, are generally wiser. As a result, it makes sense that the parent will help the child with choices. Does that mean the parent is making all the kid's choices? No, or course not, but the circumstance does require some give and take. The parent is wiser, but the child is still an individual who needs to learn how to take responsibility for himself.

The trick to this relationship is often demonstrated most notably in adolesence, where kids become more aware of complex psychological and emotional experiences and start to desire greater independence for themselves. Sometimes the parent needs to allow that independence, and sometimes the child needs to continue taking the parent's advice.

This is what it is like for God and us; he's the parent who has greater wisdom than us, but he does not want people who can only do what they're told. He want's people who understand the value of accepting wisdom, but who can then take that wisdom and apply it for themselves, not because they're ordered to, but because they genuinely desire the practice of wisdom in their life.

 

[Not David]

Jonah's decision was to not go to Ninevah. Then God threw Him into the belly of a fish until he decided he should go to Ninevah. Did Jonah truly have full discretion in his decisions?

I talk predestination regarding salvation and if you see even when God forced him, he still decided on his own.

 

[agapelove]

I talk predestination regarding salvation and if you see even when God forced him, he still decided on his own.

I was responding to what you were saying about human decision.

Yes Jonah decided on his own but he would not have if God did not interject. That's the problem with the discussion of free will and sovereignty. When things go our way we say "We are in control." but when the opposite happens we say "God is in control."

God is always in control, in regards to salvation and everything else.

 

[Not David]

I was responding to what you were saying about human decision.

Yes Jonah decided on his own but he would not have if God did not interject. That's the problem with the discussion of free will and sovereignty. When things go our way we say "We are in control." but when the opposite happens we say "God is in control."

God is always in control, in regards to salvation and everything else.

Of course, God is in control.

 

[Paul4JC]

So, if God is the ultimate sovereign, and has a grand plan for the universe, then wouldn't that include who becomes a Christian and who doesn't?

No, we have freewill, but he knows everything, he's omniscient. Beyond that, we're complicating things we don't understand. Who knows the mind of God?

He is sovereign, in all, and all, as power and knowledge majesty and splendor belong to him. All we have is borrowed, as people choose to use all this, with or without him. Yet he still loves us one and all.

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord

so as to instruct him?” d

But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Silmarien]

If these passages are true, can anyone really choose to accept Jesus? And even if you believe you made the choice of your own free will, how can you know it wasn't God directing your will subconsciously? (Not to mention that another logical implication of predestination is that evangelization is useless.)

My relationship with Christianity used to be quite negative, so the idea of grace is really very interesting to me. I do believe in free will, but I think the only choice I actually made was to finally give in. And even that's been a work in progress.

So... yes? No? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue here. I don't think "God will decide whether I believe or not, so I don't have to care about anything" is a particularly responsible way to approach the question, though I feel the same way about determinism at large. I also don't think evangelism is useless, since there's no reason to expect that God cannot use it as a vehicle to enact his will.

 

[thomas_t]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:44

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
John 6:65

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:29

If these passages are true, can anyone really choose to accept Jesus?

yes, in my opinion people can really choose to accept Jesus. I think it's like Revelation 3:20 describes. Jesus knocks the door, and you can choose to let him in or not.
But everyone is still drawn by God. However, this is interaction, so some can choose to act against the drawing. It's like a "strong" invitation that you can still choose to decline.
Romans 8:29 talks about being predestined to be "conformed to the image of his Son" - which is not the same as salvation. Theoretically, there could be either (1) "conformed" people in hell, or (2) "non-conformed" people in heaven. I didn't think through which one it is, (1) or (2).

 

[jayem]

So... yes? No? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue here. I don't think "God will decide whether I believe or not, so I don't have to care about anything" is a particularly responsible way to approach the question, though I feel the same way about determinism at large. I also don't think evangelism is useless, since there's no reason to expect that God cannot use it as a vehicle to enact his will.

My argument is simply about logical coherence. Believing that God is fully in control is logically inconsistent with believing that one can choose to accept Jesus or not. Here's a somewhat different example: I read in our municipal newsletter a while back about a local church sponsoring a career program for young teenagers. Different professionals gave presentations on what their occupations were like, what training was required, and so forth. One girl was quoted as saying that she really enjoyed it because it will "help me find God's plan for my life." I've heard that expression before. I'm sure I've seen in these forums. But isn't it illogical? If God has a plan for your life, then it's inevitable that it will happen. Why would you need someone's help to find it? Isn't it an article of faith for Christians that God does indeed have a plan--both for our lives and for the universe? And if God is truly sovereign in all things, then by logical extension, that plan must include who is a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, a non-believer, or anything else. Because nothing can occur that isn't in accord with what God has ordained. God's will be done. Do you see my point?

And re evangelism: Maybe superfluous is a better term than useless. I can see that there may be some benefit to the evangelist. Learning how to share the gospel could strengthen his/her own faith. And provide some sense of satisfaction that he/she is doing good works. But if it's in God's plan that one accepts Jesus, then God will make it happen with or without evangelization.

 

[Oldmantook]

My argument is simply about logical coherence. Believing that God is fully in control is logically inconsistent with believing that one can choose to accept Jesus or not. Here's a somewhat different example: I read in our municipal newsletter a while back about a local church sponsoring a career program for young teenagers. Different professionals gave presentations on what their occupations were like, what training was required, and so forth. One girl was quoted as saying that she really enjoyed it because it will "help me find God's plan for my life." I've heard that expression before. I'm sure I've seen in these forums. But isn't it illogical? If God has a plan for your life, then it's inevitable that it will happen. Why would you need someone's help to find it? Isn't it an article of faith for Christians that God does indeed have a plan--both for our lives and for the universe? And if God is truly sovereign in all things, then by logical extension, that plan must include who is a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, a non-believer, or anything else. Because nothing can occur that isn't in accord with what God has ordained. God's will be done. Do you see my point?

And re evangelism: Maybe superfluous is a better term than useless. I can see that there may be some benefit to the evangelist. Learning how to share the gospel could strengthen his/her own faith. And provide some sense of satisfaction that he/she is doing good works. But if it's in God's plan that one accepts Jesus, then God will make it happen with or without evangelization.

These are your logical choices:
Predestined and no free will
God is sovereign + God will not choose all = all are not saved.
Not predestined and free will
God is not sovereign + not all will choose God = all are not saved.
Predestined and free will
God is sovereign + all will choose God = all are saved.

 

[thomas_t]

Believing that God is fully in control is logically inconsistent with believing that one can choose to accept Jesus or not.

But how can man evaluate what it means to have full control? Man can't imagine I'm afraid.
I would not rule out that God in full control cannot handle free will, this sounds like belittling the omnipotent God a bit. I would not do that. God is not overcharged with free will decisions. His knowledge is perfect, it says.
If the Lady in the church feels she knows better God's plans, it's ok, I think.
There's nothing wrong with it.