If God is omnipotent, why can't He smite the devil?

[Lindsey374]

God will one day smite the devil (read revelations), but that is the end of this world. The thing is satan wasnt always bad he was an angel... he made a choice. There wasnt always sin on this earth...man made a choice. God is all about choices. He wont take choice away even if our choices hurt us...because to do that would make Him a dictator and that He is not. In fact if you read the word Jesus gave so much choice that its one of the reasons why they crucified Him (aside from the choice He made to be crucified). Jesus left all the decisions up to us...and never really argued if we chose the wrong thing. He still does this today. God will never force Himself on us. If He had taken away satans choice He would have been braking His own promises. If He took away our choices again breaking his promises to us. God wont make us into robots without free thinking. Can you imagine a world with no choices. It would seriously bite. Even our bad choices work for good...we have so much to learn from them. If I never made a mistake there wouldnt be much to me... I wouldnt be much or a person. God knows this. He knows that for instance if I choose to be a Christian because I have no choice otherwise...would it really be a choice...of course not. God wont become a Nazi... He gives us choice. Its not always pleasent but its always in the end the right thing.

 

[Marz Blak]

The thing is satan wasnt always bad he was an angel... he made a choice.

'Free will in Heaven,' anyone?

There wasnt always sin on this earth...man made a choice. God is all about choices. He wont take choice away even if our choices hurt us...because to do that would make Him a dictator and that He is not.

So God's not giving me freewill (assuming for the sake of argument that such a thing exists) would make him a dictator.

On the other hand, God's giving me freewill, then punishing me for all eternity: why doesn't that make Him a hypocrite?

I don't see how one is preferable to the other. Either way, I don't see why this is a God-concept one would find worth of worship (assuming one had the choice).

And the question as to why God couldn't have given us this 'free will' in a manner which was more limited so that we were capable of less evil, but still had 'free will' in the same qualitative sense?

E.g., I don't lack 'free will' because I am incapable of shooting thunderbolts out of my fingers and frying people who make me mad on the spot, am I?

In fact if you read the word Jesus gave so much choice that its one of the reasons why they crucified Him (aside from the choice He made to be crucified).

Yes, according to your belief Jesus chose to suffer and die, and be reborn. Jesus, being God, could've opted out of the whole deal, couldn't He? But then, Jesus was God, wasn't He? He knew how the whole thing was going to go down, right?

Does dying when one is an avatar of the omniscient, omnipotent God, who knows that He won't stay dead, well, who knows everything, mean as much, relatively speaking, as it does to those of us who are mortal?

I've never understood what Jesus' death was supposed to prove, given that He was God and all, but that's just me.

...Even our bad choices work for good...

So if even in doing evil we're doing what God wants us to do, why should we be punished for it? We're doing what He wants, right?

Oh, and one other thing: you said something to the effect that having no free will would be bad. How do you know? How do you know you have free will now?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

So where does human responsibility fit into all of this?

God put food on our tables, He put breath in our lungs, He gave us friends and family and sunshine and an endless universe. He gave us mountains and melting glaciers and wildflowers. Powerful animals to impress, inspire and capture our imagination. He gave us creativity and imagination and sight and hearing and memory. And what return did He get on the investment in each of us?

 

[Marz Blak]

So where does human responsibility fit into all of this?

Contrary to what I believe you are implying, I would assert that human responsiblity is the only responsibility of which we can claim any real knowledge.

God put food on our tables, He put breath in our lungs, He gave us friends and family and sunshine and an endless universe. He gave us mountains and melting glaciers and wildflowers. Powerful animals to impress, inspire and capture our imagination. He gave us creativity and imagination and sight and hearing and memory.

All naked assertions. Please provide evidence for these claims.

And what return did He get on the investment in each of us?

According to Christians, God is omnipotent. What do the concepts of 'investment' and 'return on investment' mean to a being who literally has all there is?

With infinite resources to 'invest,' is a return on investment even possible, in mathematical terms (i.e., (anything less than infinity)/infinity-->0)?

[Edited to add: (1)]
Then, too, according to Christians, God is not only omnipotent but omniscient and transendent of all spacetime. Surely then, however things are, they could not possibly be other than God wishes them to be?

[Edited to add: (2)]
(Strike this--it only leads into another 'freewill' discussion, and I don't want to get into that now. Going to watch some ball.)

 

[Bob Moore]

Then, too, according to Christians, God is not only omnipotent but omniscient and transendent of all spacetime. Surely then, however things are, they could not possibly be other than God wishes them to be?

Correct.

As regards your stricken second point, it is quite possible that you are indeed one of those who are reprobated since they are the majority.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

Acts xv. 18; 1 Sam. xxiii. 11, 12; Matt. xi. 21, 23; Rom. ix. 11, 13, 16, 18.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.

1 Tim. v. 21; Matt. xxv. 41; Rom. ix. 22, 23; Eph. i. 5, 6; Prov. xvi. 4.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

2 Tim. ii. 19; John xiii. 18.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath. chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

Eph. i. 4, 9, 11; Rom. viii. 30; 2 Tim. i. 9; 1 Thess. v. 9; Rom. ix. 11, 13, 16; Eph. i. 4, 9; Eph. i. 6, 12.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

1 Pet. i. 2; Eph. i. 4, 5; Eph. ii. 10, 2 Thess. i.. 13; 1 Thess. v. 9, 10; Titus ii. 14; Rom. viii. :30; Eph. i. 5; 2 Thess. ii. 13; 1 Pet. i. 5; John xvii. 9; Rom. viii. 28 to the end; John vi. 64, 65; John x. 26; John viii. 47; 1 John ii. 19.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. {emphasis added}

Matt. xi. 25, 26; Rom. ix. 17, 18, 21, 22; 2 Tim. ii. 19, 20; Jude ver. 4; 1 Pet. ii. 8.

 

[Marz Blak]

II -VII

First of all, I am not sure I understand II, which seems to be crucial to your whole Calvinist thing. Is it saying that God knows everything that might possibly be, but it isn't because He's already decided? That's the way I read it at first, but that seems squarely contradictory to the rest of your points. Could you rephrase it? I want to make sure I understand you.

III. How does this give God glory? Why does an omnipotent being want or need 'glory'? This makes no sense to me.

IV. How do you know this is true? Why would someone believe such a thing?

V.-VII. Pretty much all 'divine command theory' stuff, which I guess makes sense to some people, but which just seems too arbitrary for me; even if true, it isn't the sort of God I'd worship.

In fact, there is no reason to believe any of this stuff is true, is there? Although I must admit that there is a certain straightforward logic to the Calvinist approach which I find missing in some ways in other strains of Christianity--e.g., it certainly does away with the free will problem.

Still, I have one big problem with the whole Calvinist belief system: if everything's preordained, it doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't even matter whether I believe it or not. So I see no reason whatsoever to take it seriously.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Every claim of God's supposed "injustice" is based in a lack of human responsibility. No accountability for sin, or the known consequences of sin, or receipt of God's gracious and undeserved offer of forgiveness.

And where do you think these things come from?

So God is responsible only when you want Him to be, but you don't give credit where credit is due?

 

[Marz Blak]

Every claim of God's supposed "injustice" is based in a lack of human responsibility. No accountability for sin, or the known consequences of sin, or receipt of God's gracious and undeserved offer of forgiveness.

And where do you think these things come from?

So God is responsible only when you want Him to be, but you don't give credit where credit is due?

I just don't see it the way you do. Whatever you might say about human responsibility, assuming an omnipotent God, sin wouldn't exist if He didn't want it to. So no, God doesn't get 'off the hook', as it were.

If God is omniscient and just knows everything that will be in some way consistent with 'free will,' still, as I have argued, to the extent that this 'free will' exists, it is evidently limited by God, and that limitation is arbitrary so far as I can see.

If everything is pre-ordained, as I believe you, being a Calvinist, would hold, then there is no free will, and blaming anyone for anything he or she does is like blaming a clock for ticking.

Either way, the God you believe exists comes across as being essentially arbitrary and amoral to me, as I understand the concepts; so even assuming that God exists as a matter of reality, I cannot fathom why any rational ethical being would worship it.

As to 'where these things come from,' what do you mean? Sin? Justice? Moral concepts in general? I believe they are entirely human constructs, and I see no evidence to the contrary.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I just don't see it the way you do. Whatever you might say about human responsibility, assuming an omnipotent God, sin wouldn't exist if He didn't want it to. So no, God doesn't get 'off the hook', as it were.

Off the hook? How is God accountable to you for your disobedience? How do you have the authority to call your creator into judgment? You're right-we don't see things the same way.

If God is omniscient and just knows everything that will be in some way consistent with 'free will,' still, as I have argued, to the extent that this 'free will' exists, it is evidently limited by God, and that limitation is arbitrary so far as I can see.

Every person is accountable for his own actions. To his Creator.

If everything is pre-ordained, as I believe you, being a Calvinist, would hold, then there is no free will, and blaming anyone for anything he or she does is like blaming a clock for ticking.

Not so. God uses natural means to chieve His will. The Bible also talks about God's preknowledge. One does not preclude the other. But when people don't understand that the two can be in the same verse, half go with predestination and have go with preknowledge, and both answers are wrong, because it's not one or the other but both.

Either way, the God you believe exists comes across as being essentially arbitrary and amoral to me, as I understand the concepts; so even assuming that God exists as a matter of reality, I cannot fathom why any rational ethical being would worship it.

So you know all things that go on in the supernatural realm? How do you explain man calling his Creator into judgment?

As to 'where these things come from,' what do you mean? Sin? Justice? Moral concepts in general? I believe they are entirely human constructs, and I see no evidence to the contrary.

The things you asked me to prove were from God.

 

[Marz Blak]

Off the hook? How is God accountable to you for your disobedience? How do you have the authority to call your creator into judgment? You're right-we don't see things the same way.

My disobedience to a being I don't believe exists? This is becoming surreal.

Every person is accountable for his own actions. To his Creator.

Naked assertion. Please provide evidence. Note: Biblical texts are evidence only to those who believe they are the words of God, a propostion I see no reason to hold to be true.

And besides, this response completely sidesteps my point, unless I missed something.

Not so. God uses natural means to chieve His will. The Bible also talks about God's preknowledge. One does not preclude the other. But when people don't understand that the two can be in the same verse, half go with predestination and have go with preknowledge, and both answers are wrong, because it's not one or the other but both.

You need to explain this further because I'm missing something. How is preordainment distinct from preknowledge to an omipotent, omniscient being transcendent of all time and space? Aren't they the same thing, in essence?

So you know all things that go on in the supernatural realm? How do you explain man calling his Creator into judgment?

I would hold that I have a mind and am entitled to my own opinions, like any thinking entity. I can only go by my own intellect including my own understanding of ethics. If you are asserting that God==right and what I might have concluded, by use of my intellect and instinct, to be right could as a matter of divine command be wrong, then what you are literally saying is that I cannot trust my own intellect.

It may be true that I cannot trust my own intellect--I have no way of answering that question definitively, that I can see--but, as I have nothing else to go on, I really don't have a choice. So if that's the game, then I guess I am just SOL. As soon as I stop trusting my own intellect, then from a subjective viewpoint my ability to exist in this reality becomes untenable.

The things you asked me to prove were from God.

So you say. Again, naked assertion. Please provide evidence, noting my note from above.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Is God's existence subject to your beliefs? Give proof for all your naked assumptions and I will give you evidence for mine. Sound fair?

 

[Marz Blak]

Is God's existence subject to your beliefs? Give proof for all your naked assumptions and I will give you evidence for mine. Sound fair?

The difference between you and me, Whitehorse, is that I *know* that what I am doing is laying out my best understanding and my best arguments as I currently possess them.

I am not asserting any objective truth-claims here--in fact, I don't really believe in objective truth capital T or small, or at least, if there is such a thing, that we can possibly know whether we're onto it or not--just my best reasoning based on my own thinking and observations.

Can you say the same?

Oh, and turn it around: is God's non-existence subject to your beliefs?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Well, that's the whole point. I don't look to myself as the authority. I go to God.

But if a person goes by what they believe, what sounds palatable and agreeable, this makes themselves the authority on God, which no one can claim to have this knowledge except for Jesus Christ who is God.

This is the key to absolute truth: we mustn't look into ourselves to get it, because none of us can claim to be the authority on God.

As it is written:

Matthew 11

11:27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

It is reasonable, is it not, that God is the only authority on Himself?

You raise good questions. It's nice to have someone who keeps me on my toes.

 

[Bob Moore]

First of all, I am not sure I understand II, which seems to be crucial to your whole Calvinist thing. Is it saying that God knows everything that might possibly be, but it isn't because He's already decided? That's the way I read it at first, but that seems squarely contradictory to the rest of your points. Could you rephrase it? I want to make sure I understand you.

An omnicient God, by definition knows all things without reference to when in time they will happen. This is especially true of salvation, and is important to point out because there are those who will claim (contrary to scripture) that God 'looked down through time, saw those who would be willing to believe, and selected them. Election is based on nothing the individual could, would, or ever did do. It is entirely by grace; an unearned and underserved gift.

III. How does this give God glory? Why does an omnipotent being want or need 'glory'? This makes no sense to me.

Because God owes the fallen race nothing. The question is not why did He chose to save some, by why did He choose to save any?
I doubt that I could explain in just a few words what 'federal headship' is, and why there have been only two times in history where you were honestly, fairly, and purely represented. Suffice it to say that Adam brought us down and Jesus lifted us back up. It is the fact of saving some of His disobedient and rebellious creatures, even though they don't deserve it, that brings God Glory.

IV. How do you know this is true? Why would someone believe such a thing?

Did you look up the references?

V.-VII. Pretty much all 'divine command theory' stuff, which I guess makes sense to some people, but which just seems too arbitrary for me; even if true, it isn't the sort of God I'd worship.

Not right now, but who is to say that you are not, so to speak, on the 'call list'? You have no idea at the present time, but I can flatly guarantee you that if He calls you, you will not just come, but will run to Him. It is after all quite true that unsaved people can not understand the things of God, being seen as foolishness. I know this for a fact because I have been there.

In fact, there is no reason to believe any of this stuff is true, is there? Although I must admit that there is a certain straightforward logic to the Calvinist approach which I find missing in some ways in other strains of Christianity--e.g., it certainly does away with the free will problem.

Shall I post the doctrine on free will for you? There is way more to free will than meets the eye, and the 'problem' has not gone away. Consider this: despite the fact that the Bible is absolutely, unmistakably clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and that it is a free gift, unearnable and undeserved, there are still plenty of people who suppose that they can conjure up saving faith out of their own dead souls and so make salvation something they accomplished, thereby stealing the glory for themselves.

Still, I have one big problem with the whole Calvinist belief system: if everything's preordained, it doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't even matter whether I believe it or not. So I see no reason whatsoever to take it seriously.

That is because you do not understand the subject matter. That God already knows what you are going to do in no way lets you off the hook. Your will is free to do as you chose (except in the matter of salvation where He must first change your heart before you can respond), but, because you (general sense of all unsaved men) are spiritually dead, you can not choose the things of God because they seem foolish and undesirable. But in all other matters you are not constrained, and will act in accordance with your free will.

 

[Sanguine]

It is the fact of saving some of His disobedient and rebellious creatures, even though they don't deserve it, that brings God Glory.

Isn't that really just cleaning up his own mess?

 

[Bob Moore]

Isn't that really just cleaning up his own mess?

No, because Adam had what we do not: a will that was perfectly free to choose either good or evil. Adam chose to disobey, and in his disobedience he and the entire race fell. In effect what Adam did was say to God "I know what you said, but I don't care. I'm going to do as I please". From that point on neither he nor his posterity could freely choose divine good. To this day nothing has changed. The only way man can recover what was lost is for God to, as the scriptures say, 'change the heart of stone for a heart of flesh'. Then a man not only will be able, but will urgently desire to come to God. That is what you have heard called being born again.

 

[Sanguine]

Adam chose to disobey, and in his disobedience he and the entire race fell

Wasn't this a foreseen consequence?
If so, (and I don't mean to repeat myself, but rather clarify)

The only way man can recover what was lost is for God to, as the scriptures say, 'change the heart of stone for a heart of flesh'. Then a man not only will be able, but will urgently desire to come to God. That is what you have heard called being born again

Isn't this just defusing you're own bomb?

 

[Marz Blak]

Well, that's the whole point. I don't look to myself as the authority. I go to God.

Or, rather, what someone claims to be the word of God, with little in the way of supporting evidence.

But if a person goes by what they believe, what sounds palatable and agreeable, this makes themselves the authority on God, which no one can claim to have this knowledge except for Jesus Christ who is God.

In other words, inquiry into the the possible existence and nature of God, unlike any other subject, cannot rationally be undertaken. Special Pleading.

And the Jesus/God thing: again, unsupported assertion.

This is the key to absolute truth: we mustn't look into ourselves to get it, because none of us can claim to be the authority on God.

See above.

As it is written:

Matthew 11

11:27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

It is reasonable, is it not, that God is the only authority on Himself?

You raise good questions. It's nice to have someone who keeps me on my toes.

Written by whom?

 

[Marz Blak]

Bob Moore:

I am not going to go into your post point-by-point, because this to do so would invite tedium.

Additionally, I will freely admit that I am not studied in the finer points of Calvinist doctrine, and so I am, to be honest, not intellectually equipped to respond with the thoughtfulness your well-written post deserves.

So let me respond briefly and generally to only a couple things. I can see now that if I am to seriously discuss this with you, I have a lot of studying to do.

Election is based on nothing the individual could, would, or ever did do. It is entirely by grace; an unearned and underserved gift.

Again, I fail to see how the view at its root fails to fall prey to the objection that if God is the omniscient Creator, and He created us, then we are exactly how He wants us to be; and so either saving or damning anyone for any reason seems arbitrary.

It is the fact of saving some of His disobedient and rebellious creatures, even though they don't deserve it, that brings God Glory.

Again, we wouldn' t be disobedient unless God wanted us to be. And how can God create us with free will then blame us for using it? This meets no definition of fairness that I can construct; and I see no reason to worship, to give glory, to a such a being.

Speaking of glory, how does any of this bring God glory? And why does an omniscient being need glory? What is glory?

Your will is free to do as you chose (except in the matter of salvation where He must first change your heart before you can respond),

You have no idea at the present time, but I can flatly guarantee you that if He calls you, you will not just come, but will run to Him.

This, again, seems arbitrary to me. If God can and does change people's hearts to save them, thus depriving them of their free will, then why does He give them free will in the first place, since it can only get them in trouble as long as they have it, and they can only get out of trouble by God's taking it back away again? I really don't see the logic of this.

Moreover, why is salvation a special case?

Again, there are a lot of things about this entire construct that seem arbitrary to me.



That's pretty much all I have to say on the matter at this point. As I said, if I am going to respond intelligently at any real depth, I have some studying to do, and I am not sure I have time to devote to that right now. But if you could post or PM a couple of good resources for understanding Calvinism, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

 

[Marz Blak]

No, because Adam had what we do not: a will that was perfectly free to choose either good or evil. Adam chose to disobey, and in his disobedience he and the entire race fell. In effect what Adam did was say to God "I know what you said, but I don't care. I'm going to do as I please". From that point on neither he nor his posterity could freely choose divine good. To this day nothing has changed. The only way man can recover what was lost is for God to, as the scriptures say, 'change the heart of stone for a heart of flesh'. Then a man not only will be able, but will urgently desire to come to God. That is what you have heard called being born again.

Why does Adam's choice affect me?