If God is omnipotent, why can't He smite the devil?

[Davebuck]

Rev 20:

"7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. "

I suppose the next thread on our list will be "If God is merciful, why DOES he smite the devil?"

He put me back together,

You quoted some scripture which prophesizes your god's plan. This thread is about questioning the silliness of that plan. Why let this guy run around and hurt innocent children, adults, or immature young adults, or people that were born gulible or succeptible to suggestion of this devil guy, etc... It simply is unethical to use people as means to an end with this devil guy. Seems like your god likes this devil person more than tons of people who end up suffering as a result of him.

It's a fair question to wonder why this god of yours doesn't smite the devil. Many use the copout answer 'You can't know god's reasons' or 'God is perfect therefore his plan is perfect'. Well, to me, anyway you break this story down, it results in folks suffering when they didn't have to.

A better explanation is that this is a silly myth like all other religions. It's be no more illogical to worship thor, Isis, or a crow than to believe this illogical, immoral story. But, if it keeps you happy....

 

[Davebuck]

"7:When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth

How can you believe this stuff? It was written by someone who believed the earth was FLAT! Our sphere has no corners.

Say, don't you have some scriptures that say jesus was supposed to return right away??? Again, more false prophesies.

 

[Outspoken]

So because a beartrap works that way, life works that way? Well, I know a grand designer could create a better bear trap or create no bear trap at all.

Why create a devil and a hell? Wouldn't a decision to follow someone be that much more meaningful if the alternative wasn't hell? Wouldn't it be better if there wasn't this devil person out there messing with folks?

These ideas are just as silly as greek mythology and other crazy religious stories.

*sigh* its an analogy. God loved us knowing we would hurt him and turn away from him, but created us anyway. That is love beyond measure. As for your question why he created him, I don't know, but based on his characteristics and all-knowledge, his desicion to do so was a more informed one that you or I have, thus it was correct.

"These ideas are just as silly as greek mythology and other crazy religious stories"

Ahh, and athiests say Christians have closed minds? lol.

 

[Davebuck]

*sigh* its an analogy.

I know it's an analogy but it didn't help. It makes it seem like your god isn't the best designer.[/QUOTE]

God loved us knowing we would hurt him and turn away from him, but created us anyway. That is love beyond measure.

There are other interpretations which you'd consider if you 'open your mind'. 1) people create children knowing that they might not love us later in life. This love is measurable. 2) Some children are not created out of 'love'. Therefore, this god may not have created folks out of love. 3) perhaps your god isn't all knowing and this is a big experiment and he wanted to see how it would work out. 4) like your beartrap analogy, this god may set it up so folks have to turn away (e.g., he gave them the ability to think logically and set up the world to make it illogical to believe the stories about him). This doesn't seem like immeasuarable love, it seems like a test.

As for your question why he created him, I don't know, but based on his characteristics and all-knowledge, his desicion to do so was a more informed one that you or I have, thus it was correct..

or consider the alternative possibilities: Yahweh doesn't exist. some god or gods exist but are totally different then the old testament Yahweh. Yahweh exists but the stuff about the devil is false. and so on and so on. Lots of other reasonable alternatives.

"These ideas are just as silly as greek mythology and other crazy religious stories"

Ahh, and athiests say Christians have closed minds? lol.

It's not closeminded to question some of the christian assertions (especially the wild ones like this devil stuff). Are you closeminded because you don't believe in the boogey man? No. It's not 'closeminded' to not believe extrodinary detailed claims without extraodinary detailed evidence.

I've considered the claim and it just doesn't add up so I'm 'doubtful'. You've considered it and seem to have 'closed' your mind to logical alternatives and are resolved that your belief is right regardless of alternatives, lack of evidence, and lack of logic. That's the same thing folks do who are deep into other religions and cults.

So, careful how you use the term 'close-minded' , else you fall into the category yourself. And, try to come up for more proof of this devil and yahweh as well as reasons why not to believe the stories of other evil and good deities.

 

[dnich163]

I think that there is an issue here about freedom.

We all have free will, and this is where the devil or evil comes in.

David

 

[Davebuck]

I think that there is an issue here about freedom.

We all have free will, and this is where the devil or evil comes in.

David

Please explain:

How do you get from A to B in this argument. That is, it doesn't necessarily follow that free will means a devil will exist. Right?

Explain, logically, how free will leads to the generation of beelzebob.

 

[Outspoken]

I know it's an analogy but it didn't help. It makes it seem like your god isn't the best designer.There are other interpretations which you'd consider if you 'open your mind'. 1) people create children knowing that they might not love us later in life. This love is measurable. 2) Some children are not created out of 'love'. Therefore, this god may not have created folks out of love. 3) perhaps your god isn't all knowing and this is a big experiment and he wanted to see how it would work out. 4) like your beartrap analogy, this god may set it up so folks have to turn away (e.g., he gave them the ability to think logically and set up the world to make it illogical to believe the stories about him). This doesn't seem like immeasuarable love, it seems like a test.

or consider the alternative possibilities: Yahweh doesn't exist. some god or gods exist but are totally different then the old testament Yahweh. Yahweh exists but the stuff about the devil is false. and so on and so on. Lots of other reasonable alternatives.


It's not closeminded to question some of the christian assertions (especially the wild ones like this devil stuff). Are you closeminded because you don't believe in the boogey man? No. It's not 'closeminded' to not believe extrodinary detailed claims without extraodinary detailed evidence.

I've considered the claim and it just doesn't add up so I'm 'doubtful'. You've considered it and seem to have 'closed' your mind to logical alternatives and are resolved that your belief is right regardless of alternatives, lack of evidence, and lack of logic. That's the same thing folks do who are deep into other religions and cults.

So, careful how you use the term 'close-minded' , else you fall into the category yourself. And, try to come up for more proof of this devil and yahweh as well as reasons why not to believe the stories of other evil and good deities.

"It makes it seem like your god isn't the best designer"[/QUOTE]
Hmm..sounds like the guys that insulted edison when he invented the light blub. I'd say wait and see and you can ask him yourself. i can clearly see that apathy is curbed by adversity, which is something all humans are prone to, but if you don't want to see that, that's okay, just ask God when you see him.

"There are other interpretations which you'd consider if you 'open your mind'"

Again, you take the analogy too far. Its not a direct corraltion, or did you not know what an analogy is?

"this god may set it up so folks have to turn away "

No, We turned away, it was not set up that we did not have a choice at all.

"You've considered it and seem to have 'closed' your mind to logical alternatives "

No, I've seen that the alternatives are not logical at all. To use loaded language like you did is to reveal that you are closed minded. The first person that calls another person's beliefs, "crazy religious stories" shows his hand and it is closeminded. Just like the first person to throw a punch is the person that can't control his emotions or ran out of clever things to say.

 

[MediocrityInAction]

I would posit that omnipotence on the part of God does not neccessarily mean that God will not automatically smite Satan. From my outsider's view of the Christian existence, this poses the question of 'Why would God not smite Satan?' The only answer I can come across is that Satan serves a purpose in God's scheme. In this, my interpretation tends to flow along a broadly Islamic model: that being that God allows Satan to exist as a means of providing a test for Humanity in order to determine which elements of the population are worthy of God's grace.

 

[Davebuck]

"It makes it seem like your god isn't the best designer"
1) Hmm..sounds like the guys that insulted edison when he invented the light blub. I'd say wait and see and you can ask him yourself. i can clearly see that apathy is curbed by adversity, which is something all humans are prone to, but if you don't want to see that, that's okay, just ask God when you see him.

"There are other interpretations which you'd consider if you 'open your mind'"

2) Again, you take the analogy too far. Its not a direct corraltion, or did you not know what an analogy is?

"this god may set it up so folks have to turn away "

3) No, We turned away, it was not set up that we did not have a choice at all.

"You've considered it and seem to have 'closed' your mind to logical alternatives "

4) No, I've seen that the alternatives are not logical at all. To use loaded language like you did is to reveal that you are closed minded. The first person that calls another person's beliefs, "crazy religious stories" shows his hand and it is closeminded. Just like the first person to throw a punch is the person that can't control his emotions or ran out of clever things to say.

1) comparing your god to edison IS a good analogy. The earth and life doesn't appear to be built by an omnipotent all-knowing creator.

2) the purpose of your bear trap analogy was to make a point. But, your analogy did a poor job, so it's a poor analogy. Better analogies would have made your point more clear right off the bat.

3) Hey, I just provided an alternative explanation. You're the one shooting it down. You seem SURE that your belief is correct and all the 1000s of other beliefs in other deities are wrong.

4) Reread my post and you'll see that 'crazy religious stories' referred to other religions besides christianity. I was comparing christianity to them. Say, I bet you DO think those other religious stories about gods that are crows or bears or the sun or some guy that was killed and then rose again three days later in December (I'm speaking of Mithra) are crazy too. I think it's fair to compare some of the claims of the bible (like this battling devil guy or talking donkeys) to those other far out religious stories (like thor or joseph smith's prophecy of Jesus). These are reasonable comparisons from a literature and structural point of view. You must admit that is true, no?

Finally, I'll provide a statement to see if you are open minded enough to consider it:

Maybe, just maybe there aren't any supernatural deities.

Rationale: Each of the stories of deities throughout history is equally valid and have their place in the written and spoken records of time. Logically, they can't all be true. So, there is no reason to assume one of them is true over any others.

There. The statement isn't saying there definitely aren't any deities. It's just saying it's possible. And, it's logical to not pick any one over the others.

Are you considering?

In return, you give me a statement and I'll consider it. If it is pretty basic, then you only need to provide basic rationale or none at all. If it is highly extraordinary and goes against all that we know today, then you need some extrodinary proof and logic to back it up. E.g., if you say big foot is real, I need to see at least a corpse or skeleton.

-dave

 

[Outspoken]

1) comparing your god to edison IS a good analogy. The earth and life doesn't appear to be built by an omnipotent all-knowing creator.

2) the purpose of your bear trap analogy was to make a point. But, your analogy did a poor job, so it's a poor analogy. Better analogies would have made your point more clear right off the bat.

3) Hey, I just provided an alternative explanation. You're the one shooting it down. You seem SURE that your belief is correct and all the 1000s of other beliefs in other deities are wrong.

4) Reread my post and you'll see that 'crazy religious stories' referred to other religions besides christianity. I was comparing christianity to them. Say, I bet you DO think those other religious stories about gods that are crows or bears or the sun or some guy that was killed and then rose again three days later in December (I'm speaking of Mithra) are crazy too. I think it's fair to compare some of the claims of the bible (like this battling devil guy or talking donkeys) to those other far out religious stories (like thor or joseph smith's prophecy of Jesus). These are reasonable comparisons from a literature and structural point of view. You must admit that is true, no?

Finally, I'll provide a statement to see if you are open minded enough to consider it:

Maybe, just maybe there aren't any supernatural deities.

Rationale: Each of the stories of deities throughout history is equally valid and have their place in the written and spoken records of time. Logically, they can't all be true. So, there is no reason to assume one of them is true over any others.

There. The statement isn't saying there definitely aren't any deities. It's just saying it's possible. And, it's logical to not pick any one over the others.

Are you considering?

In return, you give me a statement and I'll consider it. If it is pretty basic, then you only need to provide basic rationale or none at all. If it is highly extraordinary and goes against all that we know today, then you need some extrodinary proof and logic to back it up. E.g., if you say big foot is real, I need to see at least a corpse or skeleton.

-dave

"The earth and life doesn't appear to be built by an omnipotent all-knowing creator"

Ahh you can't see an answer or a pattern and thus it is wrong, intellectual arrogance at its finest.

"the purpose of your bear trap analogy was to make a point. But, your analogy did a poor job, so it's a poor analogy."

LOL, no, it made the point exactly. 1. you don't know everything 2. thus something painful might be very beneficial 3. this is a clear reason why God lets evil exist. I guess you disagree with socrates too huh? The more knowledge you have about a situation the more apt you are to make the right desicion. God has all knowledge, thus a great desicion. You don't, thus your POV is uninformed and prone to error.

"Hey, I just provided an alternative explanation."

No, you used loaded language to sneak in an insult because you are closed minded about the topic.

"These are reasonable comparisons from a literature and structural point of view"

If you're changing to literature and textual crit. then the bible wins out far and above any other religious work you can muster, so go for it.

"So, there is no reason to assume one of them is true over any others."

I would say your conclusion here is flawed. You say by the evidience there is reason to assume a lack of exsistance (requires proof or the I don't know position should be taken). I would say that there is enough evidience in everyday life to assume there is some type of "creator" consitering even something as small as atoms and their structure.

"then you need some extrodinary proof and logic to back it up."

Ahh, the double standard pops up yet again. This is a flawed statement at its core, but I'm not surprised you're falling back on it. Logically, there is not "extraordinary" claim, for all claims are the same. You're using your experience to dictate your logic and the reasons you believe something, yet you don't let others do the same. Shame shame, and here I thought I had a good scientist to talk to......

 

[dnich163]

Please explain:

How do you get from A to B in this argument. That is, it doesn't necessarily follow that free will means a devil will exist. Right?

Explain, logically, how free will leads to the generation of beelzebob.

Hi there DB,

I think we only need to observe what goes on around us to see how mankind is without a value system based on "the other", based on himself as the centre of all things.

The statement I made was about evil being born of wrongdoing as a possibility.

Obviously if a person is full of love and compassion for his or her fellow man and acts this out then it is more likely that good will come.But even with someone like Mother Teresa for example there were people who spoke against her yet she was obviously a good and compassionate person who gave her life in service of others.

I guess we would say it is in the balance of probability that mankind will fail..or is that fall....at some time or another.
David

 

[Ben is Dead]

There is no point to sin because if god was all seeing he would already know the choices we were going to make under the predictaments. Why not eliminate the middle man and carry us either into heaven or hell?

 

[Ben is Dead]

ignore my post i thought i was at the last post and i was too lazy to read 18 pages so forget everything i said as my post is probably off topic anyways

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

He put me back together,

You quoted some scripture which prophesizes your god's plan. This thread is about questioning the silliness of that plan. Why let this guy run around and hurt innocent children, adults, or immature young adults, or people that were born gulible or succeptible to suggestion of this devil guy, etc... It simply is unethical to use people as means to an end with this devil guy. Seems like your god likes this devil person more than tons of people who end up suffering as a result of him.

It's a fair question to wonder why this god of yours doesn't smite the devil. Many use the copout answer 'You can't know god's reasons' or 'God is perfect therefore his plan is perfect'. Well, to me, anyway you break this story down, it results in folks suffering when they didn't have to.

A better explanation is that this is a silly myth like all other religions. It's be no more illogical to worship thor, Isis, or a crow than to believe this illogical, immoral story. But, if it keeps you happy....

On what basis are you calling it a myth? I hate to break it to you, but our liking or disliking of reality has absolutely no power to alter or recreate reality. I hate Limberger cheese. It is completely distasteful to me. Not that I've actually ever put it in my mouth, but I can't deal with the smell and therefore have no desire to put it in my mouth. It still exists.

Moreover, why aren't you railing at satan? He's the one responsible for delving us all into this mess. Of course Adam & Eve played their part. But at satan's enticing. Therefore all rebellion agains God is in the same spirit as what satan enticed Adam & Eve to do. It is satanic. So why don't we also blame ourselves for rebelling against God and causing all of this, rather than blaming God for our choices. After all, we are responsible for those choices. So why are you railing at God who gave explicit intructions not to engage in these things?

Moreover, for those who whine about the injustice of God making and establishing His good laws and demanding we keep those laws, satan's wickedness is the fruit of deciding to stand against God. I think there's an excellent lesson in there for us. All those crimes and injustices out there aren't being committed by people who submit to God's law. They aren't being committed by Christians.

 

[Davebuck]

On what basis are you calling it a myth? I hate to break it to you, but our liking or disliking of reality has absolutely no power to alter or recreate reality.

I call it as I see it...or don't see it, as the case may be.Thor = myth, mithra = myth, Yahweh = myth, satan = myth. Until this Yahweh starts appearing and talking to all of us like he supposedly did, I say myth myth myth. Just like you probably believe that visnu, isis, mithra, eastee, and others deities that preceded writings of your are myths.

I hate Limberger cheese. It is completely distasteful to me. Not that I've actually ever put it in my mouth, but I can't deal with the smell and therefore have no desire to put it in my mouth. It still exists.

The difference is, you can SEE the dang cheese. It is rational to believe it exists and even rational to presume that it tastes like it smells (although there is a chance you might like the taste, right? I mean it's possible). This is a big difference than someone telling me that there is this satan fellow that some god created even though the god knew he'd cause death and suffering to innocent folks. Sound pretty Faaaaaaaar out to me. I'll need more proof for such a wild claim.

Moreover, why aren't you railing at satan? He's the one responsible for delving us all into this mess. Of course Adam & Eve played their part. But at satan's enticing. Therefore all rebellion agains God is in the same spirit as what satan enticed Adam & Eve to do. It is satanic. So why don't we also blame ourselves for rebelling against God and causing all of this, rather than blaming God for our choices. After all, we are responsible for those choices. So why are you railing at God who gave explicit intructions not to engage in these things?.

I'm questioning the idea that this satan even exists. It just doesn't make sense that some god would knowingly create such a thing. Same goes for this idea of hell. I'm not rebelling against your god anymore than you are rebelling against santa clause. I'm just saying it's a very unlikely story. You can't be 'satanic' unless you believe this satan fellow even exists. I'm just asking you why do you believe your god hasn't smote this devil fellow all this time, given what you guys believe your god did to other things he didn't like.

Moreover, for those who whine about the injustice of God making and establishing His good laws and demanding we keep those laws, satan's wickedness is the fruit of deciding to stand against God. I think there's an excellent lesson in there for us. All those crimes and injustices out there aren't being committed by people who submit to God's law. They aren't being committed by Christians.

Some of those laws are just silly (like no wearing of mixed threads or that women must submit to husbands or no course joking). If christians don't break laws, why are so many in prison? Oh, I suppose they aren't 'real' christians or maybe the devil made them do it. But that's a different discussion. The point of this one is to figure out the illogical paradoxes of this whole idea of satan and why a loving god doesn't keep him away from his little creations. It's so odd that you can believe it without question. But, if that's the case, then you have nothing to add here because you have no rationale other than 'that's the way it is'.

 

[Outspoken]

I know it's an analogy but it didn't help. It makes it seem like your god isn't the best designer.[/

There are other interpretations which you'd consider if you 'open your mind'. 1) people create children knowing that they might not love us later in life. This love is measurable. 2) Some children are not created out of 'love'. Therefore, this god may not have created folks out of love. 3) perhaps your god isn't all knowing and this is a big experiment and he wanted to see how it would work out. 4) like your beartrap analogy, this god may set it up so folks have to turn away (e.g., he gave them the ability to think logically and set up the world to make it illogical to believe the stories about him). This doesn't seem like immeasuarable love, it seems like a test.

or consider the alternative possibilities: Yahweh doesn't exist. some god or gods exist but are totally different then the old testament Yahweh. Yahweh exists but the stuff about the devil is false. and so on and so on. Lots of other reasonable alternatives.


It's not closeminded to question some of the christian assertions (especially the wild ones like this devil stuff). Are you closeminded because you don't believe in the boogey man? No. It's not 'closeminded' to not believe extrodinary detailed claims without extraodinary detailed evidence.

I've considered the claim and it just doesn't add up so I'm 'doubtful'. You've considered it and seem to have 'closed' your mind to logical alternatives and are resolved that your belief is right regardless of alternatives, lack of evidence, and lack of logic. That's the same thing folks do who are deep into other religions and cults.

So, careful how you use the term 'close-minded' , else you fall into the category yourself. And, try to come up for more proof of this devil and yahweh as well as reasons why not to believe the stories of other evil and good deities.[/QUOTE]
"It makes it seem like your god isn't the best designer.[/"

No, I disagree, the problem is you're anaylzing it like a direct link, there inlies your flaw.

As for your possiblities I would agree to them because they do not use any judeo-christian ideas, but I would also say I think they are wrong based on the evidience shown.

As for your question about the boogyman, have any adults given a creditable reference to seeing him? Can you produce them? I'm not closeminded and immedietly say, no he doesn't exist just because I heard something from someone's brother's first cousin.

As for your "I need more proof" that's just another excuse to fall into your lazy "no proof so I can conclude it doesn't exist" mindset, something scientists would laugh at. There is plenty of evidience out there, but like I said you would probably scoff at it because you indeed have closed your mind to that possiblity.

 

[Davebuck]

Outspoken,

here are the competing hypotheses;

1) Devil actually exists
2) Devil is a myth (Null hypothesis)

So, provide some evidence that supports hypthesis 1.

 

[Davebuck]

As for your question about the boogyman, have any adults given a creditable reference to seeing him? Can you produce them? I'm not closeminded and immedietly say, no he doesn't exist just because I heard something from someone's brother's first cousin.

The 'boogeyman' has been written about, just like Yahweh has been written about. But, lets use an even better example. There are plenty of documented accounts of people 'seeing' or 'experiencing' Visnu, mithra, Eastee etc... and tons of other gods or sons of gods. But, being 'written about' doesn't provide enough support for such wild claims. It's one thing to document a drought or a war but to write about something like a devil that defies the laws of physics is something else.

You can't call me lazy for wanting extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims. And, I doubt you've gone looking for proof of Isis, Visnu, Mithra, thor, etc... In fact, what would count as proof for you to believe in any one of them?

 

[Outspoken]

The 'boogeyman' has been written about, just like Yahweh has been written about. But, lets use an even better example. There are plenty of documented accounts of people 'seeing' or 'experiencing' Visnu, mithra, Eastee etc... and tons of other gods or sons of gods. But, being 'written about' doesn't provide enough support for such wild claims. It's one thing to document a drought or a war but to write about something like a devil that defies the laws of physics is something else.

You can't call me lazy for wanting extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims. And, I doubt you've gone looking for proof of Isis, Visnu, Mithra, thor, etc... In fact, what would count as proof for you to believe in any one of them?

Okay, provide a source that claims to be nonfictional about the boogyman and we can examine it and see if you are correct. As for the other accounts, show me them. The first negative about hinduism is that you much change to get to "heaven". Strike one

"You can't call me lazy for wanting extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims. "

Ahh the old false dilema. Yes, I can call you lazy because in logic there is no such thing as extraordinary claims. Here you are using your life experience to say this claim is extraordinary, thus in your mind making it harder to prove, yet you rule out anyone using experience from their life to claim it is true. Its a double standard and the weird thing is, you're blind to it.

 

[Davebuck]

Outspoken,

Fine, there are no extraordinary claims. I'll go dig up proof of mithra and post the links. You can review them and see if they are enough for you to believe Mithra is the son of a god.

Meanwhile, you go find proof of the devil.