Another way to remove the contradiction is to assume that nothing is omnipotent. There is no logical reason to assume a priori that such a thing should exist. In fact, such a thing seems illogical and unlikely.Whitehorse said:
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Another way to remove the contradiction is to assume that nothing is omnipotent. There is no logical reason to assume a priori that such a thing should exist. In fact, such a thing seems illogical and unlikely.Whitehorse said:There's actually a fallacy there. To say God cannot best Himself sounds like He can't do something, but in reality, it's saying He cannot be bested. So it sounds like a contradiction where really there is none.Good try, though; very clever.
That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.Outspoken said:But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Davebuck said:Another way to remove the contradiction is to assume that nothing is omnipotent. There is no logical reason to assume a priori that such a thing should exist. In fact, such a thing seems illogical and unlikely.
That is not what condemns them. they are already condemned by their sin. It condemns them because beleiving in Christ is their last chance for being saved. Thus if they refuse it, they are condemned. Context is a powerful thing. Oh...its not mean, its just the truth.Davebuck said:That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.
So, is the latest model the truth? or is it an approximation of the truth?Whitehorse said:Well, we're not trying to "fix" it; we're trying to get at the truth. There were a couple of very intricate and complex hypothetical models about how the earth was at the center of the universe during Galileo's time. The scientists "made" it work, so to speak. But even thought they "made" it solve the contradictions, it wasn't the truth. What always wins is truth.
My basic assumption is that my life is the most important thing. Therefore, I also assume that other people's lives are the most important things to them. We have a right to live. So, I wouldn't kill someone (unless they were trying to take my life or the life of others).oworm said:So what would you say morality is then?
That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.
OK, so your logic is this--> Yaweh punished all humans by making them born with 'sin' and condemns them to die unless they believe Jesus is his son?Outspoken said:That is not what condemns them. they are already condemned by their sin. It condemns them because beleiving in Christ is their last chance for being saved. Thus if they refuse it, they are condemned. Context is a powerful thing. Oh...its not mean, its just the truth.
Davebuck said:So, is the latest model the truth? or is it an approximation of the truth?
I'd say it'll always be an approximation and what counts is whether the model works best or not (pragmatism). Do you agree? Do you think you'll ever know where the center of our universe is or whether the earth indeed revolves around the sun?
And, you do admit that christians were among Galileo's biggest critiques because his model was contrary to the biblical model, correct?
Davebuck said:That is just plain mean. Why condemn someone for not believing that someone is the son of a deity? It's immoral.
How so?Whitehorse said:You're kidding! This is the boldest and most entertaining argument I've heard in a while.
That's a cop-out to say they weren't christians. A christian is someone who believes jesus is the son of Yaweh. I'm sure they did. And, I'm sure they believed they were. Don't you think it a bit arrogant that you have some vision or ability to know the real path and they couldn't see it? And, if so, do you believe that your Yahweh created them that way or created a world where it was so difficult for them to understand it correctly. What gives?Whitehorse said:People who professed to be Christians were. But I would not say that these people were Christians. The sixth commandment. These people were a law unto themselves.
Who hates Yahweh? Do you have any proof that people actively hate a god they believe in? If not, perhaps you were bearing false witness for some reason with that statement. (remember, it is absurd to think atheists hate this Yahweh because they don't believe he exists. it'd be like me saying you hate Zeus.Whitehorse said:That's not mean. People hate God, and yet they expect Him to be a giant vending machine in the sky. God has a right to be believed because He is God and completely holy.
?? Again, who hates him? I'm questioning your belief in this deity that supposedly kills people (many innocent people and first born kids to boot) and your belief that it isn't a mean thing to do. no matter how you look at it, your myth is about one mean god.Whitehorse said:But what is missing here is, what do we do at God? Is that mean? He gives dies in their place and people reject this gift. That's not a gift to be taken lightly.
Davebuck said:So, is the latest model the truth? or is it an approximation of the truth?
I'd say it'll always be an approximation and what counts is whether the model works best or not (pragmatism). Do you agree? Do you think you'll ever know where the center of our universe is or whether the earth indeed revolves around the sun?
How so?
That's a cop-out to say they weren't christians. A christian is someone who believes jesus is the son of Yaweh. I'm sure they did.
And, I'm sure they believed they were.
Don't you think it a bit arrogant that you have some vision or ability to know the real path and they couldn't see it? And, if so, do you believe that your Yahweh created them that way or created a world where it was so difficult for them to understand it correctly. What gives?
AND, How would you feel about christians 100 years from now looking back on you and your beliefs and saying that you weren't a christian? I've heard that same statement made by contemporary Christians about crusading christians and slave owning christians. I'm sure we'll hear it about christians who are anti-gay. "Oh, they weren't real christians" they'll say.
Are those christians who believe dinosours and man walked the earth at the same time really christians?
Davebuck said:Who hates Yahweh? Do you have any proof that people actively hate a god they believe in? If not, perhaps you were bearing false witness for some reason with that statement. (remember, it is absurd to think atheists hate this Yahweh because they don't believe he exists. it'd be like me saying you hate Zeus.
Name one person who hates your Yahweh or correct your statement.
?? Again, who hates him?
I'm questioning your belief in this deity that supposedly kills people (many innocent people and first born kids to boot) and your belief that it isn't a mean thing to do. no matter how you look at it, your myth is about one mean god.
By god, you mean the god named Yahweh, I presume. If so, then is there anyone you know who believes that Yahweh exists, hates him? I doubt it.Whitehorse said:Do I have proof? Ask God that question.
You go ahead and believe what you wish. That's what everyone else has and does. Just don't go saying that folks hate this Yahweh thingy. You've never seen evidence of this nor does it make sense, especially if you are referring to me or atheists. How can you hate something you don't believe in?How about I do neither? How about I let God decide, and let my statement stand as the truth that it is? Yep-that's what I'll do.
Love of which god? Yahweh, Zeus, Mithra, Ra, Thor, etc...? Each has equal amount of proof and history of full of people that 'knew' each was real. So, no, I don't think I want to waste time 'spreading the love'.Whitehorse said:Isn't it a better practice to spread the love of God and remedy the situation through truth rather than demand something like this? You tell others not to judge, so why do you want a blacklist? That is between those people and God.
A conservative estimate is that 66% of all pregnancies sponaneosly abort. Whose fault is that? No one's. (although, somefolks say it is Yahweh's will or some supernatural fatalistic explanation.) Either way, it happens. But, if I were trying to have a kid, I'd use every bit of scientific knowledge to prevent spontaneos abortions from happening.Whitehorse said:Is it mean to abort children?
I brought it up because of the talk that science is faulty. But, I see you don't have that belief. As I understand it, you believe the statement about the position of earth due to scientific evidence. Then we have the same use for science. But, others on this forum disagree. Glad to see you're on my side.Whitehorse said:Because of scientific evidence that has proven for hundreds of years that this isn't the case. So it's funny to see someone bring it up; kind of like arguing still that the world is flat.
Ok, how about a christian who believes it's ok to stone someone to death if they work on the sabbath? OR, do you break commandments yet believe? If so, are you christian sometimes and sometimes not? And, are babies christian?Whitehorse said:A Christian who believes that man is at the center of the universe and would kill anyone who said otherwise, in spite of the sixth commandment? If they aren't living, it, then how can they believe it? If they believed that, then they would have been submitted to what they believe.
Whitehorse said:What is the basis of your surety? "By their fruots you shall know them.
I'm not calling any 'god' into judgment because I haven't seen any evidence that these things exist any more than bigfoot or the boogey monster. I'm just saying that your stories of Yahweh smiting away and tons of other scripture are just lewd. But, I maintain, it is arrogant to think YOU know the truth and all the other folks didn't. Come on. It's possible that some of them have it right and you have it wrong. Or, maybe no one has it right and future generation will really get it right.Whitehorse said:Oh, yes, The arrogance argument again. What I think is arrogant is for man to call God into judgment. Or to simply refuse to believe what God says about Himself. I think it's arrogant for man to try to be God, or play God. But you think I am arrogant for submitting to God and believing what He has to say. Hm.
agreed!Whitehorse said:Feelings cannot lead you to truth.
Agreed.Whitehorse said:Truth refers to what is, not how something feels.
What does the bible say about mixing different kinds of fabric for you clothes? It says it's an abomination. What does it say about owning slaves? What does it say about lots of stuff? There are tons of stuff it says which are just ridiculous. How about using critical thinking instead? It doesn't hurt anyone if same sex folks want to marry. You don't have to like it but let it be.Whitehorse said:What makes me a Christian is whether or not I trust in Jesus Christ as both Savior...and LORD. I do. And my words and deeds testify to this. What does the Bible say about being gay?
Nope, I don't think there is a thor, Yahweh etc... so there is no authority to take away. And, it works just fine. our constitution and bill of rights is purposely secular (not based on the 10 commandments or biblical scripture. It works just fine.Whitehorse said:The problem is, you're attempting to take the authority away from God in favor of personal opinion and it just doesn't work, my friend. It doesn't work. The question is, what do we do once we know it doesn't work?
From my read, the popes were christians, Martin Luther and his followers were christian, Jim Bakker and Tammy Fay were Christians, Mother Teresa was christian, Martin Luther King Jr. was a christian, Hitler was a christian, Joan of Arc (if she existed) was a christian, George Bush and some of his generals are christians, Bill Clinton was a christian, those folks who did the crusades were christians, slave owners were christians, Oral Roberts and Jessie Jackson are christians, that dude that shot the abortion doctor was christian, 95% of prisoners are christians, and, if they existed, all of the apostles/disciples were christians.Whitehorse said:What does you Bible say about what a Christian is? That's where your answer is.
I don't think there is such a thing as a 'soul'. We are biological things. What makes us important is being thinking, living, breathing humans. the little fluff is not yet human. It is not the same to lose a fetus then it is to lose a child that has seen you and you've seen it. (Not to say that it's easy to lose a fetus, it is INCREDABLY horrible if you were looking forward to raising a child. I truly understand this, trust me).Whitehorse said:That's convenient. If a person wants the child, then it is a child, but if they don't want it, the person's desire has the magical ability to make the preborn child a non-child. And beforehand I guess they're just miniature fluffs of cotton candy until parental desire breathes a human soul into their little bodies.
I don't believe some 'god' is aborting those pregnancies. They just happen. But, if you believe in an all-powerful god like you do, it is logical to assume that this god of yours is ending the pregnancy. I guess if such a god existed, I wouldn't have a beef with that since they aren't children yet. It's not like he'd be killing a 2 month old baby or a teen-ager. That'd be immoral by anyone's standard, no?Whitehorse said:And therefore, apparently the conclusion is that God is wrong for doing as He wishes with those who do not live according to His very holy laws, and then also reject His generous offer of forgiveness. (This forgiveness procured by His taking the beatings on His own back for sins He didn't commit.) But people can kill their preborn children by simply saying they're not children after all.
Davebuck said:I brought it up because of the talk that science is faulty. But, I see you don't have that belief. As I understand it, you believe the statement about the position of earth due to scientific evidence. Then we have the same use for science. But, others on this forum disagree. Glad to see you're on my side.
Ok, how about a christian who believes it's ok to stone someone to death if they work on the sabbath? OR, do you break commandments yet believe? If so, are you christian sometimes and sometimes not? And, are babies christian?
More importantly, how about just doing good. That seems like the best route. Who cares what god people believe in or if they believe in no god. There are TONS of very good secular humanists who live extremely moral lives yet don't believe. But, I don't know you so perhaps you have no beef with others. If so, that's cool.
Man, like I said, there are tons of nice folks who aren't christian (yet their 'fruits' might make you think they were by your standards).
ANd, look at the tons and tons of interpretations of how christians should act. It changes every generation. I think it is strange that each generation thinks they know the christian way better than the previous (yet they so many of them think the world keeps getting worse and worse). Its just odd!
But, I maintain, it is arrogant to think YOU know the truth and all the other folks didn't. Come on. It's possible that some of them have it right and you have it wrong. Or, maybe no one has it right and future generation will really get it right.
What does the bible say about mixing different kinds of fabric for you clothes? It says it's an abomination.
What does it say about owning slaves? What does it say about lots of stuff? There are tons of stuff it says which are just ridiculous. How about using critical thinking instead? It doesn't hurt anyone if same sex folks want to marry. You don't have to like it but let it be.
Nope, I don't think there is a thor, Yahweh etc... so there is no authority to take away. And, it works just fine. our constitution and bill of rights is purposely secular (not based on the 10 commandments or biblical scripture. It works just fine.
Only from your theistic perspecitive does it seem like i'm taking authority away from a deity. If one existed, the authority couldn't be taken away.
From my read, the popes were christians, Martin Luther and his followers were christian, Jim Bakker and Tammy Fay were Christians, Mother Teresa was christian, Martin Luther King Jr. was a christian, Hitler was a christian, Joan of Arc (if she existed) was a christian, George Bush and some of his generals are christians, Bill Clinton was a christian, those folks who did the crusades were christians, slave owners were christians, Oral Roberts and Jessie Jackson are christians, that dude that shot the abortion doctor was christian, 95% of prisoners are christians, and, if they existed, all of the apostles/disciples were christians.
Or, is it more strict? That is, are you only a christian if you abandon everything including your family to follow Jesus's teachings, according to the bible?
-dave
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