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Can i get some scripture about this?
Can i get some scripture about this?
Coming back to the original question - it is God's will that none perish, but He doesn't get His will all the time.
Like a parent of a rebellious teenager, there is little God can do. He gave us the gift of free will. If he made us to do right, it really wouldn't have been "free" will.
Hmm I think Calvin would have a thing or two to say about that.
Look there's a very simple answer for this question. "Will," is the word that the translators used in this passage. They could have easily substituted the word "will" with intent or desire. Your applying your English language brain to the word. The original text doesn't not convey this meaning. Simple...
And they key to that is love. A puppet or robot cannot love. Love is only possible if there are anti-love alternatives.
My belief is that God created us with free will within certain constraints. God's all-powerful sovereignty prevents some things, but allows us some degrees of freedom. This is illustrated in God's granting the Devil some ability to attack Job, but there were limits (ie. he couldn't kill Job). God didn't use evil against Job, but His sovereign will allowed for some evil events to take place.
God wants us to love Him, but I don't think it's within our capacity to love Him without the cooperation of the Holy Spirit. So in that sense, there is some truth to predestination as well. God has to open the door, or we could never do it on our own.
There may be some cases where God does not allow the option to love Him (Judas and Pharaoh are possible examples). However, I believe that most of us are given a window of opportunity where God beckons and the Holy Spirit is our helper, but we make the final choice between loving God and loving the world.
MikeBigg said:I'm going to nit-pick, please excuse me -- maybe windows of opportunity
Quite right. It may be multiple windows, one long one, one short one... who knows? But I do think there are seasons where the window is closed for some, and trying to force it will not be effective.
You know I read somewhere that people still believe what Calvin wrote to be right. How quaint.
Whilst I agree with most of what has been said, there is more to it and it relates to the character of God and the character of love.
The first point is in the nature of love. Love and control do not co-exist. It is impossible to seek to control someone's behaviour and have a loving motive. You can ask any marriage counsellor about this.
The second point is to do with the nature of God. The characteristics of God all reference, support and define each other's scope. God is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-seeing, but there are things He is unable to do because to do so would contradict another part of His nature. A simple example of this is that God cannot lie because He is truth.
From those two points we can understand that free will wasn't given to us because God thought it was a good idea. Free will is ours because God cannot control us because He is love.
Does God always get His will? In light of the above, the answer must be no.
Are there any Bible indications that God doesn't always get His will? The following make sense to me:
o Why would Jesus have encouraged us to pray "your will be done here on earth as it is in heaven" (matt 6) if God's always got His will. It would be a pointless prayer.
o Jesus didn't perform many miracles in His home town because of their lack of faith (matt 13). Previously, Jesus had healed many as He had travelled about preaching. It seems to me that He would have expected to do the same in His home town and that it would have been God's will for this to happen. That it didn't suggests to me that God didn't get His will in that situation.
Coming back to the original question - it is God's will that none perish, but He doesn't get His will all the time.
I hope this helps a little.
Blessings,
Mike
I think I see the problem here, we need to be reading the bible and not devoting so much of our time to "other things."
Now if we manage to make it to the judgement of the saints the "books" will be opened and you will see why God was righteous in condemning Sin. Then only then will we probably fully understand Gods judgement. But have no doubt God is HOLY! I suggest you make a study into the word Holy. Now when Christ made the analogy of Gehenna he used the example of the Worst possible "PLACE" the Jews could think of.
Anyways isn't the Catholic church close to overturning the doctrine of purgatory. Is this the replacement; what you're talking about above? Yes I seem to remember reading something about it recently. Some big council had a pop at the idea.
One day you'll understand ... I hope for your sake it is sooner rather than later.
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