If God couldn't trust Adam and Eve to do one simple thing...

[Hooksta]

then how in the world does he trust us to spread his Word now? This is my very first post. I was raised Catholic but I would be best described as a lost fool with a lot of questions.

I have always had trouble with the literal interpretation of the Bible. I don't believe Jonah lived inside a whale nor have I ever met a Christian who gouged out his own adulterous eye. I currently view the Bible as a guide for my spriritual journey. Believing in God has always come easy for me. There are too many impossible variables for sustaining life on this Earth and the system we interact with. I also accept Jesus as my saviour but I must stress I do this on Faith and hope. And lastly I do support the teachings of the Bible...even if I tend to disagree with some of the details.

Because I would like to understand the Christian faith I wanted to ask my toughest question (for me).

This is how I understand things (I'm sure I'm not correct...but this is what I think I know)
1. God is perfect
2. God knows what will happen before it happens.
3. So that means God knows Adam and Eve will fail his test (tree of knowledge) before he even creates them....right? Free will or not if he knows what the result of his two person experiment will be. Why does He become so upset that he bans them and their generations forever? And if he knows they will fail, in some regard that would seem that he set them up to fail....because he knew they would.

Ok ok....fast forward...God isn't happy with how the rules of the Old Testament works, so he decides to send his son down to teach us and die for our sins. My issue isn't around the grace of Jesus' sacrifice, but rather God's change of heart and belief that man (who couldn't be trusted to do one simple thing like don't eat from that tree...which he heard one on one from God) can now be entrusted to spread the Word of God for years to come. Isn't there something like 770,000 + words in the bible and much of it is written in parables. I liked my chances with not eating from the tree better. Am I the only one finding that a bit hard to chew....that mankind would be given the responsiblity or spreading the word? This includes translating it, copying it, printing them, and teaching it.

Has this question ever come up here? How do I get past this? I mean I just read a thread on here where Protestants accuse Catholics of adding books to their Bible in the 1500's and Catholics in turn claim that Martin Luther removed the books from the Bible. That can't be good can it?

Thanks!!!

 

[Assyrian]

One question Hooksta, are you asking about God relying on people to spread the gospel because you are feeling under pressure that you should? Or because you simply don't think the church has done a very good job?

 

[Hooksta]

Not sure to be honest. I try to imagine if I were from an undiscovered desert island how I would find God's way. Would I make up God's like the Greeks to explain Earth's natural events. I think I have always believed in a higher power...just looking at the evidence of what is around me. No big-bang theory here for me.

But allow me to carry my example further. So on my island appears a Rabbi, a Muslim teacher, a Priest, a Protestant Minister, a Mormon, and so on...we could even throw in an ancient pagan preacher too. Each appear wearing their ceremonial gown...all carrying a black book with hard to understand stories dating back centuries. Each is claiming to have the way to eternal life. What are my chances that I pick the correct one? I have heard is that once you have heard the Word of God and if you reject it you go to Hell. A lot of pressure considering they all look similar to virgin eyes.

I'm not so sure I think the Church has done a bad job, and oh I hope I don't get bashed too bad for this, but if I am truthful it seems to me that God has done the bad job. I mean, there are so many varieties and denominations of sincere people seeking the truth about God around the world. This leads me back to my original question. It appears God's will is for man to spread the Word of God. This includes the education or his word, the printing of the Bibles, the preaching of stories. It seems man has quite a responsible role for spreading the Word that Jesus Christ is our saviour. So I go back to if God couldn't trust Adam and Eve not to do the one thing he told them face to face not to, then how in the world would he trust that man could tell a 2,000 year old story with hundreds of thousands of Words accurately?

 

[chilehed]

then how in the world does he trust us to spread his Word now? This is my very first post. I was raised Catholic but I would be best described as a lost fool with a lot of questions.

I have always had trouble with the literal interpretation of the Bible. I don't believe Jonah lived inside a whale...Believing in God has always come easy for me....

If believing in God has always come easy, then how come you can't believe that Jonah could live inside of a whale? Miracles are impossible only if God doesn't exist.

Because I would like to understand the Christian faith I wanted to ask my toughest question (for me)....Thanks!!!

You were raised Catholic? Ask yourself: did your study of Catholic theology progress much beyond what you learned in grade school? If not, perhaps the problem isn't Catholic teaching but rather the fact that your understanding of it is that of a school kid. No offense, but that was my own experience (I was raised a Protestant), and it seems to be pretty common.

The problems you're having are broad and deep, difficult to discuss in a forum like this and a brief reply certainly can't be adequate. I suggest getting a copy of the Catechism and digging in.

I got a lot of help from www.catholic.com, as well. If you can pick up a radio station broadcasting EWTN (www.ewtn.com), then listen to it at every opportunity.

 

[chilehed]

...So on my island appears a Rabbi, a Muslim teacher, a Priest, a Protestant Minister, a Mormon, and so on...we could even throw in an ancient pagan preacher too. Each appear wearing their ceremonial gown...all carrying a black book with hard to understand stories dating back centuries. Each is claiming to have the way to eternal life. What are my chances that I pick the correct one? I have heard is that once you have heard the Word of God and if you reject it you go to Hell. A lot of pressure considering they all look similar to virgin eyes.

The Church has a very well developed teaching about culpability. The idea that "you absolutely must accept Christ to be saved" is a Protestant idea, not a Catholic one. It has to do with culpability: why did you not accept Christ? Was it because you were rejecting God? Or was it merely because you couldn't accept him because

-you'd never heard of him.
-there was emotional baggage that you couldn't overcome and for which you weren't responsible?
- etc., etc.​

If you send yourself to hell by rejecting God,...well, it's impossible to reject that which you do not know, right?

These ideas of culpability, invincible ignorance, and salvation outside of the Church are discussed in the Catechism.

...So I go back to if God couldn't trust Adam and Eve not to do the one thing he told them face to face not to, then how in the world would he trust that man could tell a 2,000 year old story with hundreds of thousands of Words accurately?

What if God promised that it would be so? Would that be good enough?

 

[Hooksta]

If believing in God has always come easy, then how come you can't believe that Jonah could live inside of a whale? Miracles are impossible only if God doesn't exist.


You were raised Catholic? Ask yourself: did your study of Catholic theology progress much beyond what you learned in grade school? If not, perhaps the problem isn't Catholic teaching but rather the fact that your understanding of it is that of a school kid. No offense, but that was my own experience (I was raised a Protestant), and it seems to be pretty common.

My wife (Baptist) and I have tried many churches and if I am honest, I would say I feel most comfortable with being Catholic. I'm also willing to accept that this may be due to being indoctrinated as a child into that religion and the fact that those in my family who I tend to respect and appreciate most are Catholics.

Believing in God is easy because I don't feel the Earth would randomly be formed, tilted on an axis, turn at a certain speed, with gravitational pulls so exact that it rough maintains its distance from the Sun some 93 million miles away. Energy and warmth are provided from a hydrogen buring sun and us having an atmosphere that will contain it. Then we get into how the eco-system depends on each other, weather patterns, crops growing, and the circle of life. It is easier and more reasonable to me to believe in an ultimate creator than believe there was some bang of matter.

But just because I believe that the Earth was created with whcih I can see and experience doesn't mean I don't think that the creator is capable allowing someone to live inside of a whales belly that would normally contains digestive enzymes. No one I know envisions Jonah exiting a real whale covered in whale bodily fluids. Not to mention the lack of oxygen or the smell one would have after spending days inside a mammals belly. At least there is some manner of logic in observing the earth...and whales still exist and logic does not apply there. This is all I want to comment on this as I don't want to cause this thread to go away from my sincere question of why God can't trust Adam and Eve to do one single command, but yet we are expected to get 700,000+ words of word of mouth communication for over 2,000 years and not make a mistake.

Jesus may save us, but man is required to carry the message. If not the case, I would know anything about Jesus living on my island.

 

[chilehed]

...I don't want to cause this thread to go away from my sincere question of why God can't trust Adam and Eve to do one single command, but yet we are expected to get 700,000+ words of word of mouth communication for over 2,000 years and not make a mistake...

What if God promised that it would be so? Would that be good enough?

 

[Lpe04]

then how in the world does he trust us to spread his Word now?

That's why it shocked the Paul that God entrusted the gospel to him.

I think this fits in here
Ps. 8:4 "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?"

God bless.

 

[Assyrian]

Not sure to be honest. I try to imagine if I were from an undiscovered desert island how I would find God's way. Would I make up God's like the Greeks to explain Earth's natural events. I think I have always believed in a higher power...just looking at the evidence of what is around me. No big-bang theory here for me.

But allow me to carry my example further. So on my island appears a Rabbi, a Muslim teacher, a Priest, a Protestant Minister, a Mormon, and so on...we could even throw in an ancient pagan preacher too. Each appear wearing their ceremonial gown...all carrying a black book with hard to understand stories dating back centuries. Each is claiming to have the way to eternal life. What are my chances that I pick the correct one? I have heard is that once you have heard the Word of God and if you reject it you go to Hell. A lot of pressure considering they all look similar to virgin eyes.

Wasn't that pretty much the situation when the church was launched in the Roman Empire? You had pretty much a religious market place, Christians and Jews, pagan temples both local and exotic, cults and mystery religions. Yet the church grew.

I'm not so sure I think the Church has done a bad job, and oh I hope I don't get bashed too bad for this, but if I am truthful it seems to me that God has done the bad job. I mean, there are so many varieties and denominations of sincere people seeking the truth about God around the world. This leads me back to my original question. It appears God's will is for man to spread the Word of God. This includes the education or his word, the printing of the Bibles, the preaching of stories. It seems man has quite a responsible role for spreading the Word that Jesus Christ is our saviour. So I go back to if God couldn't trust Adam and Eve not to do the one thing he told them face to face not to, then how in the world would he trust that man could tell a 2,000 year old story with hundreds of thousands of Words accurately?

There are problems certainly. But don't forget you are looking from a catholic perspective, which assumes there should only be one denomination (with the pope at the head of course). But I am not sure that was the intention. Surely the issue is not whether there are loads of different churches in a town, but how the churches and individual Christians get along together.

 

[shernren]

Not sure to be honest. I try to imagine if I were from an undiscovered desert island how I would find God's way. Would I make up God's like the Greeks to explain Earth's natural events. I think I have always believed in a higher power...just looking at the evidence of what is around me. No big-bang theory here for me.

But allow me to carry my example further. So on my island appears a Rabbi, a Muslim teacher, a Priest, a Protestant Minister, a Mormon, and so on...we could even throw in an ancient pagan preacher too. Each appear wearing their ceremonial gown...all carrying a black book with hard to understand stories dating back centuries. Each is claiming to have the way to eternal life. What are my chances that I pick the correct one? I have heard is that once you have heard the Word of God and if you reject it you go to Hell. A lot of pressure considering they all look similar to virgin eyes.

I'm not so sure I think the Church has done a bad job, and oh I hope I don't get bashed too bad for this, but if I am truthful it seems to me that God has done the bad job. I mean, there are so many varieties and denominations of sincere people seeking the truth about God around the world. This leads me back to my original question. It appears God's will is for man to spread the Word of God. This includes the education or his word, the printing of the Bibles, the preaching of stories. It seems man has quite a responsible role for spreading the Word that Jesus Christ is our saviour. So I go back to if God couldn't trust Adam and Eve not to do the one thing he told them face to face not to, then how in the world would he trust that man could tell a 2,000 year old story with hundreds of thousands of Words accurately?

But we aren't on a desert island insulated from the grand river of history. God can deal with desert islanders however He chooses but we instead stand knees deep in the vast flow of two thousand years shaped by Christianity.

It's no accident that Jesus Christ came at a time in world history when the concept of a world empire became possible with the Pax Romana. He was thrust, as it were, on center stage during prime time. For a while His message was stuck in backwater Palestine. Then He died, was buried and rose again - and within half a century the jealous Jews not caught up in the tide were complaining that something started by a country bumpkin carpenter and his fishermen lackeys were turning the world upside down. And for all of Paul's missionary zeal, the gospel outraced him right to the heart of Rome!

Choosing Christianity is not simply a matter of picking between alternate dogmas. Of all faiths I find that Christianity has, for me, the most rootedness in history. God really did these things, Jesus really did walk those lands, Paul really did write those letters, naming places (whose ruins) we can still see and people whose names and titles we can still find on inscriptions. And as a to-be scientist I find Christianity (not through creationism!) providing me with the most powerful insights on how I can hold together the rational, almost mechanical order I see in the physical world around me with the sense of the transcendent and the ineffable that my soul seems built for.

 

[Hooksta]

Just wanted to respond and say that I appreciate the insight and views you are sharing here with me. It helps.