Cygnus,
Soj , lets have this straight I don't deny nor ever have that there are bonafide Christians in the Orthodox church .......... so your attack above is misinformed . rather it is YOU that deny anyone is part of Christ's body , His Church who is not Orthodox , so don't be putting your aspersions on me!!!!
What and how does this response even suggest you are answering the post I made.
You are putting authority in scripture and state it a little lower in this same post.
Here is your exact words.
it has final and full authority over all Christians!
That to me does not sound like what I am saying at all. The ONLY authority I am under is Christ. Period. As I have also pointed out the Bible has no authority as is amply shown historically within protestantism. It is the reader, the interpreter that has final and only authority. You cannot explain it otherwise.
you are much more confused than ever .......... i have already shown you that Christ is NOT the Church ..... no wonder you are all over the place!!
Actually, you have not. But even at that it is just your own interpretion/opinion.
Which aligns with your statement above that scripture is your authority. Christ is not the Head of His Church. He is not the Body either. How can you get this to align with Scripture?
No Christian denys it .......... have I ever denied Christ is the Only head of The Church ... NO!!! so why bring it up ............ more smokescreens!
I didn't know you were Orthodox. Yes, none deny it because they do not understand what scripture is actually saying. You have created a new and different church and simply ascribed biblical terminology to it. It is part of the relativism and humanism that is so much of protestantism. One is his own authority, one can believe as they so select as long as either God and Christ is included, then nothing else matters respective of salvation. Christ sees all because they simply use His name and thus are accounted members of this mystical body.
Just a point here. Sometime back you mentioned what you call cults, Mormans, Jehovah Witnesses as apparently not christians. You claim that Orthodoxy is exclusive, as if Christ was not, but you are exclusive to the Mormons. Why? What they believe as a group as well as the Jehovah Witnesses, as well as Moslems I might add, is believed by others who call themselves Christians. Mormons, from my vantage point, in understanding the theology of protestantism can just as well claim they are Christian and be able to make it stick. That they might be different on a host of particular issues means absolutely nothing. They just need to believe in God.
I know you will come back and say, it must align with scripture. What kind of barometer is that. It has been proven over and over that it is not scripture that is the authority by the person making the interpretation.
I have already stated that all false teachings are based on scripture. If not, it is not and cannot be a false teaching, just an alternative religion. By your view, Arians, Nestorian, Gnostics, Monophysites, Docetists, Montanists, Sabellians, `and some views that were renounced without the person being excommunicated because of recantation are all christians in the same sense as anyone else. Paul was absolutely wrong is singling out the Gnostics and even the Judiazers.
All of these views are found in many differenct protestant groups, individuals. whole denominations and many variations of the pure teachings of each. So Paul wasalso wrong is warning Timothy of false teachers, false teachings. If they simply believed in God/Christ, they should be accepted as true christians.
Might also note that every single one of these false teachings was originated by a single individual. Throughout the history of the church, it has been proven without exception, that when an individuals puts himself above the Church and the authority of Christ, false teachings invaribly arise. That is why Peter states in II Pet 1:20-21 and Paul in II Tim 4:2-5. Or even II Tim 2:15.
The question then becomes whose teachings are in the picture here, Paul via the Holy Spirit or your personal truth. Your personal truth is denied by Peter. Paul also places this Church, as the pillar and foundation of Truth. Who is this Church again? Of course, Christ.
I don't see any of these commands as being done within Protestantism. Where is your pillar of Truth. .. but scripture. Who has authority over scripture... the individual.
it is quite simple , the Church can and does err , teachers can and do err , Bishops can and do err ........... so on and so forth ........
what cannot err is scripture !
Two falsehoods. Does that make a right?
The Church cannot err. This is a contradiction in terms from what you just stated above. You stated the Christ is the Head of the Church. Yet, I would need to presume, that you believe that Christ can err. I agree that teachers and bishops do and have erred as history simply magifies that statement. But Paul also warned of this happening. He was more concerned with wolves from within then without and that has also been aptly proven in history.
However, when you say scripture cannot err. Again, it is just a book, Ink on paper. Of itself it has no power, no authority. But based on your theology, the individual is the sole interpreter, thus the interpreter is that authority. Then to say, it cannot err, when in actuality it has always erred. An individual alone with scripture, interpreting scripture for himself, history has shown, just within the Church has always erred.
Now, lets look at protestantism as a whole. What other way is there to look at it? No unity, no union even, multiplicity of doctrines from one extreme to the next, all accounted as correct and those who hold any view is a member of Christ's Body.
I can see that every single person in the world, which Christ does desire to be saved, simply saying they beleive and personally places themselves in the Body of Christ and counts himself as saved to eternity.
I believe there is criteria, spelled out by Christ as to what is the Way, the ONLY Way. I don't think He was a relativists. In fact, the way I read Him, He was very exclusive.
The way in short is absolute, total commitment, no reservations.
Let me make it simple for YOU , the Church is the body of all believers in Christ , she is NOT Christ , she dwells in Christ
Now that is a contradiction in terms for an Orthodox and is correctly stated Biblically. We, as believers are IN Christ. We are ontological, organic members of His Body. He is also the Head, right? So then it is very simple to say that Christ is the Church. He is the Head of the Body. They are ONE. This is the same reason most protestants are gnostic in theology. The Church is no different than baptism, Eucharist, confession, and a host of other material things. We are human, not spiritual. We operate in a physical world. One reason Christ, of necessity, needed to redeem the universe because man cannot exist without it. The Church and the other sacraments or simply mental remembrances, rather than events and salvfic at that. It is our participation, physical, in the sufferings, death, and resurrection of Christ. It is all ontological.
the authority is the scriptures that contain the essence of The Apostles teaching and contain the Word Of Christ Himself ....... this is the only authority over Christians
Let me ask you a question. How did the Christians live the first 60-70 years. Surely the first 30 years when no letter or Book was even in print as yet. I would assume that the Church did not exist. And what about all those Christians martyred in the first 300 years. They had the letters but they, as all accounts show did not consider them their sole authority. Again, they were sorta in limbo, I would imagine.
Next question. Why did not Christ or even the Apostles immediately write the inspiration down completely. Word for word that was given to them. Why did they wait until 30 years to even write down the first word, then not everything. The only command by the Angel to write anything down was to John for the Book or Revelation.
Then another question. Why would Paul even state or mention that the Church, whether an organization or an organic entity was the pillar and foundation of Truth. Why not come right out and say that the eventual Bible which will be formulated much later will be and should be considered that authority for all christians?
the authority of the Apostles and Prophets and Christ the chief cornerstone are now continuing through the Sacred scriptures as was predicted ,.
Where is that prediction? I don't think I ever stated that we rely on infallible men. We rely first and foremost on that Cornerstone, Ah, that Church again. And Apostles and prophets. We add just one more thing to that. Christ promised us that the Holy Spirit would preserve His Church. NO, that is not correct. He stated He would preserve only the written portion of the Gospel that was conveyed to the Apostles. That they would be authoritative, just why Philip, needed to be shown and taught what the scriptures said bewilders me, but that each individual upon reading, studying and interpreting could establish for themselves what that Gospel would mean for them. What it means for them is the only thing that is relevant. What they personally believe does not need to be the Gospel for anyone else. It is plain enough for all to read and they would come to the same conclusion every single time.
At that, the Holy Spirit will guide them in this interpretation.
Somewhere, something has gone awry. Ah, I keep forgetting. It does not matter what you actually believe. What I believe matters not to you. Each is absolutely correct for it matters only to that person.
not by so called infallible men (popes or councils) .....
Again, you are only referring to Roman Catholics here. Orthodox first of all have no pope. Secondly the bishops and councils are not infallible. In actuality they don't even speak for the Church. That infallibility lies in the countless faithful of now 2000 years which are believers through which the Holy Spirit works to protect, preserve His Church and Gospel entrusted to that Church, His Body.
However, your infallibility is in your own powers of reasoning, depends on one single human mind, and is absolute. How is that not man?
