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Do you have any extra-biblical evidence that Paul of Tarsus existed or at the very least did the things you say he did? Because we are debating the truth of the biblical account.Like Saul of Tarsus was, when he changed practically overnight from persecutor to persecuted?
2 Corinthians 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2 Corinthians 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
How do I know?How do you know?
AV1611VET said:And thus my point -- the Gospel writers thought it was true.
Why? because they were there.
Here we go -- invoking extra-Biblicality.Do you have any extra-biblical evidence that Paul of Tarsus existed or at the very least did the things you say he did? Because we are debating the truth of the biblical account.
They weren't NASA engineers who okayed the Challenger, Skaloop; they were simple fishermen, publicans and sinners, just li... nevermind.Yep. Thought it was true. But didn't know it was true.
Are you so naive as to believe that just because someone dies for their beliefs, they are by default... true?How do I know?
Well -- let's see.
Remember Salman Rushdie? the man that wrote The Satanic Verses?
Didn't the Arab scientists put a $2,000,000.00 bounty on his head for that?
I also vaguely remember something about an episode of the Smithsonians, where there was a knock at the door, and Bart or Homer or whoever answered it, and it was [TVs version of] Jesus Christ; but the writers meant it to be Mohammad, until this Rushdie thing broke out, causing even the mighty Smithsonians to bow to Iran and mock our Saviour, instead of their prophet.
The bible account is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know they existed because of the bible account of them. -> The bible account is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know they existed because of the bible account of them. -> The bible account is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know they existed because of the bible account of them.Here we go -- invoking extra-Biblicality.
If I was one of those who believe we should win debates in favor of Christianity in these latter days, I would claim a victory.
Do you have any extra-biblical evidence that Paul of Tarsus existed or at the very least did the things you say he did? Because we are debating the truth of the biblical account.
Of course not -- I'm talking about people [not] dying for something they knew was false.Are you so naive as to believe that just because someone dies for their beliefs, they are by default... true?
If you don't see the problem you... are a typical creationist.
Do you see the problem?-- thank you.
The bible account is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know they existed because of the bible account of them. -> The bible account is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know they existed because of the bible account of them. -> The bible account is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know they existed because of the bible account of them.
If you don't see the problem you... are a typical creationist.
Do you have any extra-scientific evidence that the earth is millions of years old like geologists say it is? Because we are debating the truth of the scientific data.
You know you weren't they to see them actually calculating the data. So you have no idea if these guys actually did calculate it or whether or not they are just trying to get you guys to believe a lie or their "doctrine" of evolution.
The evolution story is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know it is true because of the pictures and charts they give us. -> They tell us it is true so we believe them even though we have never see the data. ->
If you don't see the truth you are really deluded.
1. No one ever claimed it was true because the people who came up with the data they were willing to die for it.The evolution story is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know it is true because of the pictures and charts they give us. -> They tell us it is true so we believe them even though we have never see the data. ->
The evolution story is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know it is true because of the pictures and charts they give us. -> They tell us it is true so we believe them even though we have never see the data. ->
The evolution story is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know it is true because of the pictures and charts they give us. -> They tell us it is true so we believe them even though we have never see the data. ->
The evolution story is true. -> The people who wrote it were willing to die for it. -> We know it is true because of the pictures and charts they give us. -> They tell us it is true so we believe them even though we have never see the data. ->
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?If you don't see their truth you will be discredited and banned and lose your career and your friends.
In the case of evolution, if you've seen the evidence and still don't believe it, you may very well be deluded.If you don't see the truth you are really deluded.
Here we go -- invoking extra-Biblicality.
If I was one of those who believe we should win debates in favor of Christianity in these latter days, I would claim a victory.
Isn't it just pathetic that the Creationism crowd can't even pull off an "I know you are but what am I?" schtick without bungling it?
If you guys can't even be insulting without screwing it up, how are you going to properly represent the character of your deity?
Yahweh?You on the other hand have no choice you must represent the character of your deity. And you do it well. he was a ---- and a murderer from the beginning. I suggest you move along and get as far from him as you can because he means you only harm.
You are naive if you believe that scientists use a different set of the laws of physics to engineer the hardware and networks that your computer uses to those used by astrophysicists to look billions of years into the past. Finding the petroleum for the plastics and the mining of the ore for the computer chips uses old earth geology methods. Has a bible provided any of that information? Never. The x-ray and MRI machines at the hospital use the same laws of physics, as does the GPS system that you may have in your cell phone. Do own or drive a car? You have already accepted all of those physical laws, and all of the related science.You will note I said science that is contrary to God's Word. I did not say all science.
Yet this is in contradiction to your earlier answer. If the only answers you receive are those that appear to come from within, then that is not much of a god. The human brain is an amazing thing, capable of creating its own illusions, such as the illusion of self, as detailed in my posting here.Davian, Forty years... that's forty years. I've been young and now I'm not so young (in age that is) I've seen lots and lots in my life and been through lots and lots. I am a very open and honest person. I'm that way with God also. I say this because there is no way that I have not already tested God. He allows this because He would know I wasn't being honest if I didn't. Life brings us many things and questions along the way. That's one of the things my Father does. He answers my questions. I have never had a test or a question that I have not gone away from it believing MORE in God than I did before. I'm not afraid of God in ANY way. I LOVE God.
I don't know how to make you see or understand that over the internet.
You appear to be very religious.I'm not religious.
So by this you mean you reject computers, automobiles, television, modern medicine?I'm not just a mamby pamby Christian. I question everything and everyone, including myself, and if it doesn't line up with the scriptures I don't accept it.
They are just writings in a book.I don't SEE the Word of God as you do. I don't believe men COULD have written what has been written in the Bible WITHOUT the influence of the Holy Spirit. All these writings were by individuals who lived hundreds and thousands of years apart and they did not conspire with each other to form a doctrine to bring all us Christians under their control.
God does not work solely under some church building. He works in our individual lives. Yes, there may be some who fit your description but most true or mature Christians do not. When you are a true Christian you do not have to even know the person to know if they are a true Christian. I don't know AV or any of the other Christians here personally. I don't even know what their real names are or where they are from but I am one with them. I know exactly what they mean when they talk about the Bible and Christ. How can that be? I don't know them from Adam and yet, I know them. It's because we are one in the Spirit.... one in the family of God.... onne in Christ.
As to God's presence being measured or detected in some way there is a way but you must be born of the Spirit to experience it. God is a Spirit and to know Him you, too, must be alive in the spirit. You must be alive unto God. When we are born into this world in the physical/natural we are not alive unto God. We have to receive Jesus His Son to become sons and daughters ourselves.... THEN you can know God and His presence. You won't see Him yet, but you can know Him.
Then you do not know atheism, and particularly ignostic atheism.You told me what you think I believe. Now, let me tell you what I believe. I believe you are afraid to test God. I believe you can't move into the realm of the unseen because YOU are afraid that what you have been taught your whole life or what you have built your beliefs on will be shown to be false. Some of it IS false. You are afraid you will be mocked and ridiculed by possibly your family or friends ... and you just might be... but it's worth it to know the Lord. I think most atheists WANT us to PROVE God and SHOW us God and I wish I could but that is not how it works. YOU have to believe God is real or at least seek Him to find out for yourself. God wants you to KNOW Him. Other Christians are here to help and support you but if ones faith was all based on other Christians.... well, you know how that would go. Christians are not perfect just new creatures growing all the time. If we did not have GOD Christianity really wouldn't be much at all. God is the focus of it all. God is the reality of it all. God is the Life and Spirit of it all.
I hope this is the post you were asking me to answer. If not please let me know.
And I'm talking bout people dying for something they think isn't false.Of course not -- I'm talking about people [not] dying for something they knew was false.
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