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tas8831

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It most certainly is an answer, and the correct one, just like if the milkshake was no longer here (extinct, if you will), and you can only theorize as to what flavor it was, or if it even was a milkshake.
Always weaseling - it is the YEC non-scientist way.
 
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tas8831

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And he is like this in EVERY thread he starts. It is like they think we cannot see what they do or something.
 
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inquiring mind

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When the members of the species Homo erectus were alive, were they human or animal (or both)?
Well, since you don't like my 'extinct' answer, the only other one I have is 'I don't know'... what's yours (and connecting dots doesn't count)? I don't think there's any undisputed evidence that they even coexisted (as in playing house etc.) with modern humans... do you have any? I suppose you can find all kinds of articles online, pro and con. But, when it's all said and done, I'd venture to say that no one knows for sure, and it's like modern man just appeared out of the blue about 200,000 years ago or more (according to time as we think we understand it).
 
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Gene2memE

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I don't think there's any undisputed evidence that they even coexisted (as in playing house etc.) with modern humans... do you have any?

Nothing is undisputed (not even 1 + 1 = 2), so that's a weasel out right there.

There is VERY STRONG evidence, from both the fossil record and genetics, that modern humans (as in Homo sapiens) co-existed with Homo erectus. There's fossil evidence of overlapping occupation of the same geography in Africa and Southeast Asia, as well as genetic evidence of interbreeding between Homo sapiens and Homo erectus. (Not to mention human interbreeding with other archaic Homo species, like habilis, neanderthalis and denisovans - speciation via hybridisation is a complex process in large vertebrates)


I'd say we can answer pretty definitively that yes Homo sapiens and Homo erectus coexisted. The answer has been a tentative 'yes' for at least 30 years, and that yes has continued to get firmer and firmer over the last decade.

In all probability, humans and homo erectus coexisted together for more than 150,000 years. To put this into context, humans have been the only surviving hominid species for about 40,000 years (and possibly as little as 30,000 years). Which means we coexisted with our ancestors for much longer than we've been on our own.

And, modern man didn't just 'appear out of the blue' 200,000 years ago. There's clear overlap and hybridisation events with other hominids across multiple geographies (Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia) over a period of hundreds of thousands of years.
 
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inquiring mind

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I hate to start ping-ponging articles, but like I said this is your opinion, and no one knows for sure. This article is 10 years old and it seems to dispute your thoughts on the subject. Even so, I noticed they couldn't keep from connecting dots either.
Scientists show that modern humans never co-existed with Homo erectus
 
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Shemjaza

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Do you have a definition of human? A method of identifying what it means?

Personally I don't think you can create a hard line between "human" and "animal" so it's not a useful distinction.

It's certainly possible that there was limited to no interaction between Homo sapiens and Homo erectus... but there was definitely interaction between Homo neanderthalis, Denesova hominids and Homo sapiens.

The problem comes from how we classify different species. Sometimes species like Homo antecessor are simply labelled Homo erectus... When people talk about interactions with the other Homind species sometimes they are talking about in ancient times before Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa and sometimes they are talking about interaction in Asia or the Middle East much later.
 
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Tom 1

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Maybe not... just that particular point in time makes me wonder what made us take a step like that (breaking from the natural norm), if we were a lower animal form. Another good point though.

I don't think the question is much different to others like why are we constantly developing new tech, why do we obsess over what food to eat and so on. Things of this sort will alter humanity on evolutionary timescales, but within the span of a human life they are just examples of human behaviour, we don't get to see where it is all going.
 
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tas8831

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Interesting. Can you find any articles from legitimate sources showing evidence for the coexistence of humans and ceratopsian dinosaurs, as indicated at the Creation museum?


If not, I am curious why you expect from evolution research that you do not expect from your own side.
AKA, double standards.
 
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inquiring mind

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Do you have a definition of human? A method of identifying what it means?

Personally I don't think you can create a hard line between "human" and "animal" so it's not a useful distinction.
Actually, you're right, provided I’m hamstrung to a scientific explanation. But, there is definitely a gray area where science even fails to link the two, without connecting dots of course. Like I said in my previous statement, also with the link I posted, there’s no absence of controversy about it even in scientific circles. In addition, if genomics (often science’s trump card on the subject) was the end-all argument, I feel that science would not have failed in a definite physical connection between the two.

So, I have only two choices: science which attests to man’s limited knowledge in this regard, or the Bible, with another answer altogether. It’s a faith-based ‘God did it’ explanation that men and science have been unable to discredit other than with often frustrated, archaic Mideastern story labeling. Yet, Genesis still offers an answer to the difference you speak of… God created man in His own image, man will rule over every other living creature, even giving man the ‘knowledge and ability’ to name them, and man is given an unprecedented ability pertaining to choices... I think you know my choice in the gray area.
 
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Well put... I guess I'm just cautious when it comes to connecting dots based on changes in behavior, adaptations, etc.
 
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Fair enough, I don't necessarily align with all thoughts on either side.
 
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Tom 1

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Well put... I guess I'm just cautious when it comes to connecting dots based on changes in behavior, adaptations, etc.

Some or a lot of it is arbitrary. Necessity is the mother of invention, and all that. Changes in living conditions force people to adapt, those who don't adapt don't pass on their genes. There are lots of other interesting ideas too, for example it may be that domesticating dogs led to greater success in hunting, which meant more protein and calories, supporting the development of bigger brains. Lots of different influences over very long periods of time.
 
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Yes, I’ve never really denied the logical line of thinking that evolution encompasses, and that’s why I’m supportive of microevolution. The problem with evolutionists is they won’t except anything less than the whole nine yards (goo to you as they say). As a disclosure, I’ll just say that I don’t think there is evidence (without speculation) that this is remotely the case, and I believe we were created… so anything suggesting another possibility seems illogical to me, if for no other reason evidenced by the need for speculation in the scientific theories.
 
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tas8831

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As a disclosure, I’ll just say that I don’t think there is evidence (without speculation) that this is remotely the case,
What is your impetus for this position? I gather from your posting history that it is almost entirely due to your religionism, not from a depth of understanding of the science. If this is not correct, please indicate your rationale.
and I believe we were created
Why do you believe this? Your religious indoctrination? Again, from your posting history I cannot see where there is any real science involved. If it is your mere religious beliefs, who cares? If it is something rational, tangible, scientific, you do a very good job of hiding it.
… so anything suggesting another possibility seems illogical to me, if for no other reason evidenced by the need for speculation in the scientific theories.
You mean speculation so-called by religionists?
What do you make of the fact that there are both old earth and young earth creationists? People using the same source material coming to dramatically different conclusions. Should a skeptic not use that as evidence for the unreliability of the source material? Or will we see accusation of heresy and the like?
 
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What is your impetus for this position? I gather from your posting history that it is almost entirely due to your religionism, not from a depth of understanding of the science. If this is not correct, please indicate your rationale.
Of course its from faith... do you think I'm going to deny it? And, if I start having any doubts, all I have to do is listen to self-proclaimed scientists for a little while and the thought passes.

Why do you believe this? Your religious indoctrination? Again, from your posting history I cannot see where there is any real science involved. If it is your mere religious beliefs, who cares?
If you're so sure of what I know and don't know, why did you even ask?

You mean speculation so-called by religionists?
What do you make of the fact that there are both old earth and young earth creationists? People using the same source material coming to dramatically different conclusions.
Don't scientists, such as yourself, do this as well?
 
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Gottservant

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I think that the OP is interesting, in that it presents a case without "mutation" as a choice of styles of adaptation.

What is interesting is that it comes up against the argument that you have to gamble adaptations (with mutation), in order to develop them (and that adaptational styles are irrelevant, while you survive this way) - which I try to address here.

It seems there is a double bind, that Evolutionists both want the change, but not the instinct that encourages it?

Any way, very interesting stuff (I will be checking back, definitely)
 
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Shemjaza

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Mutation is a chemical change that occurs as a life form is conceived or initially develops... it has nothing to do with instinct or choice.

It isn't a presupposition, it's merely an evidenced fact.
 
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Gottservant

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Mutation is a chemical change that occurs as a life form is conceived or initially develops... it has nothing to do with instinct or choice.

It isn't a presupposition, it's merely an evidenced fact.

A "fact" with what style?

There is something that entices you to adapt, that is different from mutating - any one else would call that a "choice"?

You won't "adapt" until you see a mutation "first"?
 
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