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essentialsaltes

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If not knowing how old the earth was meant anything, how could he have thought in any other terms than microevolution?

His investigations of living and extinct species led him to the idea of common ancestry of all life on earth. That's as 'macro' as it gets.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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inquiring mind

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His investigations of living and extinct species led him to the idea of common ancestry of all life on earth. That's as 'macro' as it gets.
So, even though he didn't know the age of the earth (as you mentioned before), he must have believed it was very, very old???
 
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Well, lets just say these comments never cease to keep that question in my mind:

"Molecular evidence indicates that the lineage of gibbons (family Hylobatidae), the "lesser apes", diverged from that of the great apes some 18–12 million years ago, and that of orangutans (subfamily Ponginae) diverged from the other great apes at about 12 million years. There are no fossils that clearly document the ancestry of gibbons, which may have originated in a still-unknown South East Asian hominoid population; but fossil proto-orangutans, dated to around 10 million years ago, may be represented by Sivapithecus from India and Griphopithecus from Turkey.[10] Species close to the last common ancestor of gorillas, chimpanzees and humans may be represented by Nakalipithecus fossils found in Kenya and Ouranopithecus found in Greece. Molecular evidence suggests that between 8 and 4 million years ago, first the gorillas (genus Gorilla), and then the chimpanzees (genus Pan) split off from the line leading to the humans. Human DNA is approximately 98.4% identical to that of chimpanzees when comparing single nucleotide polymorphisms (see human evolutionary genetics).[11] The fossil record, however, of gorillas and chimpanzees is limited; both poor preservation—rain forest soils tend to be acidic and dissolve bone—and sampling bias probably contribute most to this problem.

Other hominins probably adapted to the drier environments outside the African equatorial belt; and there they encountered antelope, hyenas, elephants and other forms becoming adapted to surviving in the East African savannas, particularly the regions of the Sahel and the Serengeti. The wet equatorial belt contracted after about 8 million years ago, and there is very little fossil evidence for the divergence of the hominin lineage from that of gorillas and chimpanzees—which split was thought to have occurred around that time. The earliest fossils argued by some to belong to the human lineage are Sahelanthropus tchadensis (7 Ma) and Orrorin tugenensis (6 Ma), followed by Ardipithecus (5.5–4.4 Ma), with species Ar. kadabba and Ar. ramidus."
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You could have just answered a very simple yes or no instead of just copy and pasting a whole wall of text that I don't think you've really read.
 
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essentialsaltes

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So, even though he didn't know the age of the earth (as you mentioned before), he must have believed it was very, very old???

Yes, it was recognized by then by geologists that it was at least millions of years old. A later edition of On the Origin of Species takes notice of a calculation by W Thompson (aka Lord Kelvin) and considers the estimate to be too short to comfortably fit his theory.

Consequently, if the theory be true, it is indisputable that before the lowest Cambrian stratum was deposited, long periods elapsed, as long as, or probably far longer than, the whole interval from the Cambrian age to the present day; and that during these vast periods the world swarmed with living creatures. Here we encounter a formidable objection; for it seems doubtful whether the earth, in a fit state for the habitation of living creatures, has lasted long enough. Sir W. Thompson concludes that the consolidation of the crust can hardly have occurred less than 20 or more than 400 million years ago, but probably not less than 98 or more than 200 million years.
 
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You could have just answered a very simple yes or no instead of just copy and pasting a whole wall of text that I don't think you've really read.
I even went to the trouble of making bold the phrases that lead me to question... no bs please.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I even went to the trouble of making bold the phrases that lead me to question... no bs please.

You mean like the phrase of "Human DNA is approximately 98.4% identical to that of chimpanzees when comparing single nucleotide polymorphisms". You know that the evidence of evolution isn't just fossils, right?
 
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You mean like the phrase of "Human DNA is approximately 98.4% identical to that of chimpanzees when comparing single nucleotide polymorphisms". You know that the evidence of evolution isn't just fossils, right?
Approximately is my point.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Approximately is my point.

Do you have a problem with honest language too? Science never deals in perfect absolutes. They could be flat out wrong, they could be off by a margin of a single %.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... My question is really "Why would ape-like creatures even attempt life outside their norm?"
I can think of several reasons, not mutually exclusive, and not necessarily a product of deliberative thinking; maybe curiosity/sense of adventure, or following migrating game, or environmental pressures (competition, hunger, predation, changing climate, etc.), or discovering novel foodstuffs, e.g. in coastal habitats, or inter-group warfare, and so on.
 
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Yes, but that happens often with animals with no other transitioning to the level of humanity. Go back earlier than that and ask what sparked that desire in an animal that otherwise would not venture to take such steps and, in fact, the overwhelming majority didn’t (even if you are correct). And, on top of that those that did, as you suggest, developed the human quality??? I know there are many smart animals with feelings and emotions, but we are different. The human quality is not very explainable… and to me certainly not through randomness, twists of fate, macroevolution, etc. That’s my answer I suppose… there has to be more to it.
 
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Gene2memE

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Yes, but that happens often with animals with no other transitioning to the level of humanity.

Is Homo erectus a human? Or an animal?

There's evidence that the species controlled fire, made complex tools (axes, spears, grinders, bowls, picks, scrapers), made (semi) permanent settlements with fixed abodes, made art, decorated objects and maybe even had religious ceremonies (open to interpretation though).
 
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It always baffles me that they can find supposed evidence of settlements, fire, tools and other utensils, but they can’t find enough fossil remains to tie it all together. At least they are straight-forward about it though.
 
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sjastro

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It always baffles me that they can find supposed evidence of settlements, fire, tools and other utensils, but they can’t find enough fossil remains to tie it all together. At least they are straight-forward about it though.
Homo erectus were clever enough to navigate through the islands of Indonesia using watercraft to end up in Java.
They supposedly didn't have the technological capability of traversing larger water barriers to reach Timor, the Sahul shelf and eventually the Australian continent.

In Australia human remains and tools were found at Kow Swamp and dated around 13,000 years ago.
The skulls were anatomically similar to Homo erectus suggesting they reached Australia and survived well after the extinction of Homo erectus given to be more than 100,000 years ago.
Furthermore considerably older and more gracile form of skulls found indicated Homo erectus and Homo sapiens coexisted together.

The idea of Homo erectus coexisting with Homo sapiens in Australia has been been challenged by the theory the skulls found at Kow Swamp are the result of cranial deformation.
Head Modification Explains the Origin of the First Australians | Australasian Science Magazine
 
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Gene2memE

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It always baffles me that they can find supposed evidence of settlements, fire, tools and other utensils, but they can’t find enough fossil remains to tie it all together. At least they are straight-forward about it though.

1. That doesn't answer my question. Homo erectus, do you consider it an animal, or a human?
2. The evidence of settlements, fire, tools and other utensils isn't "supposed". It exists, and is both well documented and quite widely on display. And, it continues to be built on.
3. The conditions that preserve skeletons for fossilisation are rather different and considerably rarer than the conditions that preserve stone tools and hearths, inscribing on bones and shells, excavations for fixed abodes, and burial sites for the dead. That said, we currently have skeletal remains from in excess of 300 Homo erectus individuals from better than 30 sites globally, and there are usually three to four new finds per year - like these from Kenya earlier this year.
 
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