If decay rates changed?

[philadiddle]

If anyone here is familiar with the formulas behind this, can you please explain it to me in layman's terms? I recall hearing that decay rates of isotopes are tied to equations, and that if decay rates used to be higher in the past it messes things up in particle physics.

Obviously I can't quite explain what I'm after, or else I wouldn't need it explained to me. If you know what I'm getting at could you please help?

 

[Blayz]

Decay rates are not tied to equations, equations are formulated to describe decay rates. All of them are based on the natural logarithm.

Discussing decay rates being different in the past is a similar as a discussion about the concept of flying pigs. I mean, pigs can't fly now, but what if they could fly in the past? Just because there is absolutely no evidence for any kind of flying pig, and indeed a wealth of evidence that pigs have never flown, doesn't mean they didn't exist.

 

[RickG]

Decay rates are not tied to equations, equations are formulated to describe decay rates. All of them are based on the natural logarithm.

Discussing decay rates being different in the past is a similar as a discussion about the concept of flying pigs. I mean, pigs can't fly now, but what if they could fly in the past? Just because there is absolutely no evidence for any kind of flying pig, and indeed a wealth of evidence that pigs have never flown, doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Except in the case of decay rates, they are tied to the fundamental laws of physics where those characteristics are constant, contrary to biological process of pigs.

For decay rates to have changed in the past or even in the future the entire construct of matter would have to change. If it has changed, it hasn't happened for at least 13.7 billion years. The physical evidence is there.

/thread.

 

[Jamin4422]

if decay rates used to be higher in the past it messes things up in particle physics.

Decay rates are calibrated. So you have to trust the experts that they know what they are doing when they make adjustments and set the calibration.

14C has not been strictly constant during the span of time that can be radiocarbon dated. The level is affected by variations in the cosmic ray intensity which is in turn affected by variations in the Earth's magnetosphere.[18] wiki

 

[Elendur]

m = m0 * .5^(t/t0)

Where:
m is the current mass
m0 is the starting mass
t is the current time
t0 is the time it takes for half of the mass to decay, also known as half-life.

I think it is like that, it's a few years since I had physics

Edit: Thanks Lion Hearted Man for the term

This link could be of interest for some:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

m = m0 * .5^(t/t0)

Where:
m is the current mass
m0 is the starting mass
t is the current time
t0 is the time it takes for half of the mass to decay, don't know the term.

I think it is like that, it's a few years since I had physics

 

[Elendur]

Both me and my girlfriend laughed hard, thanks

 

[Blayz]

Except in the case of decay rates, they are tied to the fundamental laws of physics

It was a simile mate.

Decay rates are calibrated. So you have to trust the experts that they know what they are doing when they make adjustments and set the calibration.

No. Equipment is calibrated. Decay rates are not. As for "trusting the experts", could I ask you start by not trusting the experts that invented your computer, and never use the internet again?

14C

has not been strictly constant during the span of time that can be radiocarbon dated. The level is affected by variations in the cosmic ray intensity which is in turn affected by variations in the Earth's magnetosphere.[18] wiki

You understand this is about the amount of 14C in the atmosphere, and has absolutely nothing to do with its decay rate, right?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Decay rates are calibrated. So you have to trust the experts that they know what they are doing when they make adjustments and set the calibration.

14C has not been strictly constant during the span of time that can be radiocarbon dated. The level is affected by variations in the cosmic ray intensity which is in turn affected by variations in the Earth's magnetosphere.[18] wiki

Err, no. Decay rates are constant - it's the radiometric dates that are calibrated. And, of course, there's solid theory and evidence for how and why that is done. Carbon-14 decays at a fixed rate, and there's no evidence to the contrary. What matters is when you need the original quantity of C-14, and that does need to be calibrated.

And since we're only talking about decay rates, you're somewhat obfuscating things.

 

[RickG]

Decay rates are calibrated. So you have to trust the experts that they know what they are doing when they make adjustments and set the calibration.

14C has not been strictly constant during the span of time that can be radiocarbon dated. The level is affected by variations in the cosmic ray intensity which is in turn affected by variations in the Earth's magnetosphere.[18] wiki

Only the cosmogenic radionuclides are require a calibration scale, which you correctly cited are affected by variations in cosmic rays. However, those calibrations are well known and it is not the rates that are calibrated, the rates do not change. What is calibrated is the concentration of the isotope over time.

 

[Jamin4422]

No. Equipment is calibrated. Decay rates are not. As for "trusting the experts", could I ask you start by not trusting the experts that invented your computer, and never use the internet again?

Do you realize that your breathing the air that God made for you to breath? Enjoying the sunshine that he provided for your warmth and comfort. It is you that cannot live with all that God provides for you. Where did those so called experts get the elements to build a computer if not from God. Where did they get the knowledge and understanding if they did not get it all from God. Perhaps it is you that needs to honor God and give Him the Glory for all He has done and all He has given you.

 

[philadiddle]

Do you realize that your breathing the air that God made for you to breath? Enjoying the sunshine that he provided for your warmth and comfort. It is you that cannot live with all that God provides for you. Where did those so called experts get the elements to build a computer if not from God. Where did they get the knowledge and understanding if they did not get it all from God. Perhaps it is you that needs to honor God and give Him the Glory for all He has done and all He has given you.

Jamin, from one Christian to another I can assure you that if want to get their respect you are much better off admitting that you were mistaken with your assesment of radioactive decay, and that you will attempt to read up on it to learn how it really works. Ignoring their honest criticisms and preaching at them simply won't get you anywhere. (Atheists, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

 

[The Engineer]

Jamin, from one Christian to another I can assure you that if want to get their respect you are much better off admitting that you were mistaken with your assesment of radioactive decay, and that you will attempt to read up on it to learn how it really works. Ignoring their honest criticisms and preaching at them simply won't get you anywhere. (Atheists, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

Thanks for telling him this! I really appreciate that.

 

[Michael]

Err, no. Decay rates are constant - it's the radiometric dates that are calibrated.

Well, close, but not quite:

The Sun is changing the rate of radioactive decay, and breaking the rules of chemistry

 

[philadiddle]

m = m0 * .5^(t/t0)

Where:
m is the current mass
m0 is the starting mass
t is the current time
t0 is the time it takes for half of the mass to decay, also known as half-life.

I think it is like that, it's a few years since I had physics

Edit: Thanks Lion Hearted Man for the term

This link could be of interest for some:
Half-life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is close to what I'm looking for. However, it only seems to measure the amount that should be there given the half life. I thought that more advanced physics could calculate the half life based on the energy of the atom, and that if the half life was different then the energy of the atom would be different and would somehow mess up physics. But maybe I'm wrong about this.

 

[Elendur]

Well, close, but not quite:

The Sun is changing the rate of radioactive decay, and breaking the rules of chemistry

Thanks for the link interesting read.

I've just got to ask though, is it an assumption if it has been tested?
"It's such a fundamental assumption that scientists don't even bother testing it anymore."

 

[philadiddle]

Well, close, but not quite:

The Sun is changing the rate of radioactive decay, and breaking the rules of chemistry

I've found a more reliable source for you
The strange case of solar flares and radioactive elements

This was two years ago, what has come of it?

 

[Elendur]

This is close to what I'm looking for. However, it only seems to measure the amount that should be there given the half life. I thought that more advanced physics could calculate the half life based on the energy of the atom, and that if the half life was different then the energy of the atom would be different and would somehow mess up physics. But maybe I'm wrong about this.

You can calculate the half-life if you measure your initial mass and the mass you have after a certain time, of course that would also require a number of repetitions to lessen the confidence interval

As for the advanced physics, I don't know. I hope someone will be able to answer it for you

 

[Jamin4422]

your assesment of radioactive decay,

There is nothing in what you quoted about radioactive decay. So just what is it you have a problem with?

 

[RickG]

Well, close, but not quite:

The Sun is changing the rate of radioactive decay, and breaking the rules of chemistry

Like you said, close but not correct. Decay rates DO NOT CHANGE. It so happens that cosmogenic radionuclides can exhibit a very small oscillation due to fluxes of cosmic rays from the sun. An oscillation is not a decay rate change.

BTW, none of those that oscillate are used in radiometric dating.