If Catholics believe birth control is a mortal sin, than what do you do?

[QuantaCura]

We have no money- but the more we put first seeking God's will, the more it doesn't matter- as our needs are taken care of.

Contraception is all just a straw man for not trusting God, and for justifying selfishness. Sorry to be a little harsh- but that is truly my belief.

This is very true. My dirt poor immigrant great grandparents had 16 children--how could they handle it and your average middle class family nowdays allegedly can't handle more than 4?

 

[Miss Shelby]

nm

 

[OnTheWay]

I know plenty of Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic, who believe that birth control use for good reasons is not a sin and irresposibility is not something you can just blame as "trusting in God" as Cosmic hinted.

If you aren't ready for children then don't have sex. The use of artificial BC reduces a creative act to base pleasure.

A couple of my friends married almost 2 years ago and use barrier methods because they are not even 22 yet, have a house to pay, have school debts to pay, and money to start putting away for retirement, emergency funds, future children, etc. Should they feel bad for using birth control?

Matthew 6:25-34
That is why I am telling you not to worry about your life and what you are to eat, nor about your body and what you are to wear. Sure life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Look at the birds in the sky. They do not sow or reap or gather into barns; yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they are? Can any of you, however much you worry add one single cubit to your span of life? ANd why worry about clothing? Think of the flowers crowing in the fields; they never have to work or spin; yet I assure you that not even Solomon in all his royal robes was clothed like one of these. Now if that is how God clothes the wild flowers growing in the field which are there today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, will he not much more look after you, you who have so little faith? So do not worry; do not say, "what are we to wea? What are we to drink? What are we to wear?" It is the gentiles who set their hearts on these things. Your Father knows you need them all. Set your hearts on his kingdom first, and on God's saving justice, and all these other things will be given you as well. So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

The wisdom of the world may tell them to do these things, but the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. I notice in the savings list there is nothing set aside for giving to the poor, the Church, no time for making the suffering of others easier.
As a Christian trusting in the Divine Providence of God is not just paying lipservice to it and going about as the world would have you do. All I see in your list are excuses to seek pleasure and avoid responsiblity. You can call it wordly reponsiblity if you like, but it is not Godly and it is not of God.

I don't think so. My friend said that she knew if she had gotten pregnant, the baby would have put strain on their marriage and they would be so poor because they are just getting financially set.

So we learn from this if they have money the marriage will be okay, and if they don't then the marriage will be strained. Given the facts of life and the hardships most endure I wouldn't say this bodes well. It is certainly not the basis of Christian marriage.

Isn't it better for them to use the birth control while they can so that when they are ready a couple years from now, when they are more mature and responsible, to then wait to have a child?

I'm sorry, but this argument is applied to lots of things and it is never vaild. Shouldn't they live together in sin so that in a couple of years when they are more mature they'll be in a better position to decide if marriage is really for them.
It would seem that if somone is not ready for the things that go along with married life then they weren't ready for married life to begin with. Your points would be vaild taken in the context of aruging these two people were too young for marriage, however in light of using BC in a selfish effort to recieve sexual pleasure but avoid children they are not vaild.

Many people really want to focus on their marriage and know when they are ready to have a child. When a couple is that young getting married, they are putting as many hours into work as possible.

How exactly does practicing one's ability to be selfish help with marriage? If someone is clearly unprepared for marriage the answer is to delay marriage, not use birth control. Thus of any of this to be vaild you would have to shift the focus of the discussion from BC to individuals clearly not ready for marriage getting married.

Having one person not working puts an incredible amount of strain of them emotionally and financially.

The kids cost a fortune thing is an absolute myth and always comes across sounding like justification. Normal people love their children, they don't sit around bemoaning the cost of diapers.

Is it selfish to want to focus on developing your marriage for a couple years before having a child?

Alright, then develop the social aspect and abstain from sexual activity. Start having martial relations when you are ready for that aspect of marriage.

Noone wants to know that things went downhill because it was an unexpected pregnancy.

What about an unexpected job loss, or a bad investment, or any of the other fifty thousand things that can cause money problems? Sorry, but if some money issues are going to tear about a marriage then the marriage was a mistake from day one.

Sure God said to be fruitful and multiply but look at the world's population rate. In not too long we will be overpopulated, using the resources we have and ultimately, running out of those resources. Because of China's overpopulation, in the past the government FORCED abortions on women and use of birth control. Isn't it better fo these people to make the choice of birth control before anything like abortion happens?

Overpopulation is a myth. The refusal of some to part with a few of their resources is the problem. Enough food can be produced in the mid-west of the US to feed the entire world alone. There is no lack of resources, there is a lack of a willingness to share resources.
Futhermore, the actions of the militant atheist government of China have nothing to do with Christian beliefs. It's like saying Jews should stop having children because if they chose to wipe themselves out Adolf Hitler wouldn't have had any need to try and do it himself.

Many people in the pro-life movement believe that the lack of teaching about sex ed and birth control, and birth control access are some of the root causes to why women seek abortion.

If one looks at the type of individual that is prone to have abortions this position becomes completely absurd.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

You again miss the point. God said to be fruitful and multiply, to fill the earth.

When you take vows you vow to receive and be open to children, that requires actually being open to receive them.

If there is no serious reason to prevent them, then the double negative is saying you are open but you are taking measures to prevent it from happening.

NFP is not to be used as contraception; it is the only moral means we have to prevent a pregnancy when we should not become pregnant.

I guess the disagreement will be if you think we are to be open to life in a marriage or not. Open to life is not defined as “I’ll do everything on my part not to get pregnant but if I do, I’ll keep it.” It is defined as being open to receiving life as God allows it to happen and if you come together he for sure will allow it. That is exactly how he designed the whole thing to work.

The problem is that isn't what church teaches. Humane Vitae itself says that it is possible to have sex knowing you can't get pregant (using NFP which is after all 99 44/100% failsafe) if the couple as reason not to. What constitutes a good reason is left up to the couple.
My good reason and your good reason my not be the same. And I just don't think you can enforce a "you need to play russian roulette with your period" rule on everyone just because YOU think thats the way it should work for you.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

If you aren't ready for children then don't have sex. The use of artificial BC reduces a creative act to base pleasure.

Look, sonny, before you start shoot your mouth off maybe you should understand Catholic Theology on the subject.

1) Sex consists of both unity and productivity, not just productivity. ABC seperates to two. This is the problem. Its plessurable either way.

2) You can have sex and not expect echildren (you have to be open, not expectent) The RCC lays out an entire arguement for a birth control method. that can be used.

3) The RCC is rather high on the unitve aspects of sex and doesn't actaully recommend not having sex for long periods of time just to avoid having children.

 

[Annabel Lee]

If you aren't ready for children then don't have sex. The use of artificial BC reduces a creative act to base pleasure.



Matthew 6:25-34
That is why I am telling you not to worry about your life and what you are to eat, nor about your body and what you are to wear. Sure life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Look at the birds in the sky. They do not sow or reap or gather into barns; yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they are? Can any of you, however much you worry add one single cubit to your span of life? ANd why worry about clothing? Think of the flowers crowing in the fields; they never have to work or spin; yet I assure you that not even Solomon in all his royal robes was clothed like one of these. Now if that is how God clothes the wild flowers growing in the field which are there today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, will he not much more look after you, you who have so little faith? So do not worry; do not say, "what are we to wea? What are we to drink? What are we to wear?" It is the gentiles who set their hearts on these things. Your Father knows you need them all. Set your hearts on his kingdom first, and on God's saving justice, and all these other things will be given you as well. So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

The wisdom of the world may tell them to do these things, but the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. I notice in the savings list there is nothing set aside for giving to the poor, the Church, no time for making the suffering of others easier.
As a Christian trusting in the Divine Providence of God is not just paying lipservice to it and going about as the world would have you do. All I see in your list are excuses to seek pleasure and avoid responsiblity. You can call it wordly reponsiblity if you like, but it is not Godly and it is not of God.



So we learn from this if they have money the marriage will be okay, and if they don't then the marriage will be strained. Given the facts of life and the hardships most endure I wouldn't say this bodes well. It is certainly not the basis of Christian marriage.



I'm sorry, but this argument is applied to lots of things and it is never vaild. Shouldn't they live together in sin so that in a couple of years when they are more mature they'll be in a better position to decide if marriage is really for them.
It would seem that if somone is not ready for the things that go along with married life then they weren't ready for married life to begin with. Your points would be vaild taken in the context of aruging these two people were too young for marriage, however in light of using BC in a selfish effort to recieve sexual pleasure but avoid children they are not vaild.




How exactly does practicing one's ability to be selfish help with marriage? If someone is clearly unprepared for marriage the answer is to delay marriage, not use birth control. Thus of any of this to be vaild you would have to shift the focus of the discussion from BC to individuals clearly not ready for marriage getting married.



The kids cost a fortune thing is an absolute myth and always comes across sounding like justification. Normal people love their children, they don't sit around bemoaning the cost of diapers.



Alright, then develop the social aspect and abstain from sexual activity. Start having martial relations when you are ready for that aspect of marriage.



What about an unexpected job loss, or a bad investment, or any of the other fifty thousand things that can cause money problems? Sorry, but if some money issues are going to tear about a marriage then the marriage was a mistake from day one.



Overpopulation is a myth. The refusal of some to part with a few of their resources is the problem. Enough food can be produced in the mid-west of the US to feed the entire world alone. There is no lack of resources, there is a lack of a willingness to share resources.
Futhermore, the actions of the militant atheist government of China have nothing to do with Christian beliefs. It's like saying Jews should stop having children because if they chose to wipe themselves out Adolf Hitler wouldn't have had any need to try and do it himself.



If one looks at the type of individual that is prone to have abortions this position becomes completely absurd.

How long have you been married and how many children have you been blessed with?

 

[BAChristian]

A couple of my friends married almost 2 years ago and use barrier methods because they are not even 22 yet, have a house to pay, have school debts to pay, and money to start putting away for retirement, emergency funds, future children, etc. Should they feel bad for using birth control? I don't think so. My friend said that she knew if she had gotten pregnant, the baby would have put strain on their marriage and they would be so poor because they are just getting financially set.

My wife and I got married at 19. We had Ashlee at 21. And while it was a financial strain, it was not a financial strain because of Ashlee. It was a strain because we were 21. I don't know a 20-something who isn't having a hard time financially. That's called life. And you don't realize it until you hit your thirties -- which is when you start to actually get settled in your career (hopefully).

We, as a society, use birth control to prevent pregnancies because we don't have enough faith to follow what the Church teaches.

I do believe that transitioning to NFP, much like Shelb5 pointed out, is a transitional thing. It doesn't happen overnight. It's a conviction that comes from the Holy Spirit -- Christ's guiding love. From a pastoral viewpoint, I believe it should be treated as such.

 

[Benedicta00]

The problem is that isn't what church teaches. Humane Vitae itself says that it is possible to have sex knowing you can't get pregant (using NFP which is after all 99 44/100% failsafe) if the couple as reason not to. What constitutes a good reason is left up to the couple.
My good reason and your good reason my not be the same. And I just don't think you can enforce a "you need to play russian roulette with your period" rule on everyone just because YOU think thats the way it should work for you.

Charlie,

I was addressing your disapproval with Jason saying he and his wife are being irresponsible. People who chose not to use any kind of prevention should not be classified as playing Russian roulette. That is very a discriminatory thing to say. If Jason and his wife do not practice NFP but rather say they will surrender the whole thing then what business is that of any of us?

 

[Benedicta00]

I know plenty of Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic, who believe that birth control use for good reasons is not a sin and irresposibility is not something you can just blame as "trusting in God" as Cosmic hinted.

They should because the use of ABC is a grave sin because they are evil. If they feel they must postpone kids then the only moral choice one has is NFP.

But if you do not feel that you have any real reason to prevent pregnancy through the use of NFP then I fail to see how it is deemed irresponsible.

A couple of my friends married almost 2 years ago and use barrier methods because they are not even 22 yet, have a house to pay, have school debts to pay, and money to start putting away for retirement, emergency funds, future children, etc. Should they feel bad for using birth control?

They should feel bad for they type of prevention they use because barrier methods are just that barriers and they should feel bad if their mentality is anti baby but no, they should not feel bad for their disallows them, they’re is just a right moral way to handle it and a immoral way.

Problems are life and we all have money situations but speaking from some experience here, if you want to excuse having children until the finical time is right, then you will never have them, because there never is a right finical time.

I don't think so. My friend said that she knew if she had gotten pregnant, the baby would have put strain on their marriage and they would be so poor because they are just getting financially set.

No, no no. No baby ever puts a strain on marriage, I have 6 and have been married for 17 years, I know what I am talking about. It’s not the baby causing the strain. If you are not ready to receive children or handle stress even, then you are not ready for marriage over all.

Isn't it better for them to use the birth control while they can so that when they are ready a couple years from now, when they are more mature and responsible, to then wait to have a child?

If they feel prevention is a must which the reasons you give I personally do not believe are, but if one has to postpone then there is a moral way of going about it that is just as effective if not more effective but it requires sacrifice and self control, something not too many have these days and if you friends are not mature and responsible already then why are they married?

I personally feel odd considering hormones for birth control, but many people use barrier methods, Catholic and otherwise. For many of these people, using NFP doesn't feel as certain as using a form of birth control. In all honesty, isn't very rare to really predict and track a woman's cycle, seeing that it can vary and become irregular?

No it's easy to track and you keep throwing Catholics in there who use ABC, so what? They are wrong to do it.

Many people really want to focus on their marriage and know when they are ready to have a child. When a couple is that young getting married, they are putting as many hours into work as possible. Having one person not working puts an incredible amount of strain of them emotionally and financially. Is it selfish to want to focus on developing your marriage for a couple years before having a child? Noone wants to know that things went downhill because it was an unexpected pregnancy.

None of what you say really is actually true. Marriage isn’t a rat race, and if you feel you have to work on your marriage in order to bring kids into it then you have bigger problems to deal with.

This is what happens when there is no real marriage preparation. You can not get married and then prepare for it, all that is supposed to be done ahead of time.

Sure God said to be fruitful and multiply but look at the world's population rate. In not too long we will be overpopulated, using the resources we have and ultimately, running out of those resources. Because of China's overpopulation, in the past the government FORCED abortions on women and use of birth control. Isn't it better fo these people to make the choice of birth control before anything like abortion happens?

Oh bull. With mentalities like this, before we know it, the world will be over populated with Muslims because Christians have contracepted themselves out of existence.

Many people in the pro-life movement believe that the lack of teaching about sex ed and birth control, and birth control access are some of the root causes to why women seek abortion.

That is so much bull....they’re wrong.

ABC and a very anti baby mentality, them being a alien intrusion to a couple’s marriage and to our world in general is what is promotes abortion, not the teaching of Jesus Christ.

 

[Benedicta00]

If you aren't ready for children then don't have sex. The use of artificial BC reduces a creative act to base pleasure.



Matthew 6:25-34
That is why I am telling you not to worry about your life and what you are to eat, nor about your body and what you are to wear. Sure life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Look at the birds in the sky. They do not sow or reap or gather into barns; yet your Heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they are? Can any of you, however much you worry add one single cubit to your span of life? ANd why worry about clothing? Think of the flowers crowing in the fields; they never have to work or spin; yet I assure you that not even Solomon in all his royal robes was clothed like one of these. Now if that is how God clothes the wild flowers growing in the field which are there today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, will he not much more look after you, you who have so little faith? So do not worry; do not say, "what are we to wea? What are we to drink? What are we to wear?" It is the gentiles who set their hearts on these things. Your Father knows you need them all. Set your hearts on his kingdom first, and on God's saving justice, and all these other things will be given you as well. So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

The wisdom of the world may tell them to do these things, but the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. I notice in the savings list there is nothing set aside for giving to the poor, the Church, no time for making the suffering of others easier.
As a Christian trusting in the Divine Providence of God is not just paying lipservice to it and going about as the world would have you do. All I see in your list are excuses to seek pleasure and avoid responsiblity. You can call it wordly reponsiblity if you like, but it is not Godly and it is not of God.



So we learn from this if they have money the marriage will be okay, and if they don't then the marriage will be strained. Given the facts of life and the hardships most endure I wouldn't say this bodes well. It is certainly not the basis of Christian marriage.



I'm sorry, but this argument is applied to lots of things and it is never vaild. Shouldn't they live together in sin so that in a couple of years when they are more mature they'll be in a better position to decide if marriage is really for them.
It would seem that if somone is not ready for the things that go along with married life then they weren't ready for married life to begin with. Your points would be vaild taken in the context of aruging these two people were too young for marriage, however in light of using BC in a selfish effort to recieve sexual pleasure but avoid children they are not vaild.




How exactly does practicing one's ability to be selfish help with marriage? If someone is clearly unprepared for marriage the answer is to delay marriage, not use birth control. Thus of any of this to be vaild you would have to shift the focus of the discussion from BC to individuals clearly not ready for marriage getting married.



The kids cost a fortune thing is an absolute myth and always comes across sounding like justification. Normal people love their children, they don't sit around bemoaning the cost of diapers.



Alright, then develop the social aspect and abstain from sexual activity. Start having martial relations when you are ready for that aspect of marriage.



What about an unexpected job loss, or a bad investment, or any of the other fifty thousand things that can cause money problems? Sorry, but if some money issues are going to tear about a marriage then the marriage was a mistake from day one.



Overpopulation is a myth. The refusal of some to part with a few of their resources is the problem. Enough food can be produced in the mid-west of the US to feed the entire world alone. There is no lack of resources, there is a lack of a willingness to share resources.
Futhermore, the actions of the militant atheist government of China have nothing to do with Christian beliefs. It's like saying Jews should stop having children because if they chose to wipe themselves out Adolf Hitler wouldn't have had any need to try and do it himself.



If one looks at the type of individual that is prone to have abortions this position becomes completely absurd.

This teaching is hard, who can take it?

Good answers.

 

[Miss Shelby]

It's interesting to see the amount of posts and the kind of opinions expressed here.

I know plenty of Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic, who believe that birth control use for good reasons is not a sin and irresposibility is not something you can just blame as "trusting in God" as Cosmic hinted.

A couple of my friends married almost 2 years ago and use barrier methods because they are not even 22 yet, have a house to pay, have school debts to pay, and money to start putting away for retirement, emergency funds, future children, etc. Should they feel bad for using birth control? I don't think so. My friend said that she knew if she had gotten pregnant, the baby would have put strain on their marriage and they would be so poor because they are just getting financially set.

Isn't it better for them to use the birth control while they can so that when they are ready a couple years from now, when they are more mature and responsible, to then wait to have a child?

I personally feel odd considering hormones for birth control, but many people use barrier methods, Catholic and otherwise. For many of these people, using NFP doesn't feel as certain as using a form of birth control. In all honesty, isn't very rare to really predict and track a woman's cycle, seeing that it can vary and become irregular?

Many people really want to focus on their marriage and know when they are ready to have a child. When a couple is that young getting married, they are putting as many hours into work as possible. Having one person not working puts an incredible amount of strain of them emotionally and financially. Is it selfish to want to focus on developing your marriage for a couple years before having a child? Noone wants to know that things went downhill because it was an unexpected pregnancy.

Sure God said to be fruitful and multiply but look at the world's population rate. In not too long we will be overpopulated, using the resources we have and ultimately, running out of those resources. Because of China's overpopulation, in the past the government FORCED abortions on women and use of birth control. Isn't it better fo these people to make the choice of birth control before anything like abortion happens?

Many people in the pro-life movement believe that the lack of teaching about sex ed and birth control, and birth control access are some of the root causes to why women seek abortion.

browneyes did you read the article I posted earlier in the thread? I did so because he's a protestant minister and one who teaches almost the same thing the Church does when it comes to this. He addresses many of the questions you've asked in this post.

Michelle

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Charlie,

I was addressing your disapproval with Jason saying he and his wife are being irresponsible. People who chose not to use any kind of prevention should not be classified as playing Russian roulette. That is very a discriminatory thing to say. If Jason and his wife do not practice NFP but rather say they will surrender the whole thing then what business is that of any of us?

Look, you're not turning this around on me. Read my orginal post if he wants to do this I'm happy for him.

But just as it is discriminatory if I were to classify him as playing Russian roulette is is just as discriminatory to claim that those who believe playing Russian roulette with the sex lives is irreponsible are practicing contraception by default even if using NFP.

And your right, in none of your business anyway.

 

[Benedicta00]

Look, you're not turning this around on me. Read my orginal post if he wants to do this I'm happy for him.

But just as it is discriminatory if I were to classify him as playing Russian roulette is is just as discriminatory to claim that those who believe playing Russian roulette with the sex lives is irreponsible are practicing contraception by default even if using NFP.

And your right, in none of your business anyway.

You hinted that trusting God to provide, protect, and keep a person in their decision to not use any kind of preventive measure in order to not become pregnant is irresponsible.

Having kids when you are married is NOT irresponsible in any way shape or from. Getting married when you are not prepared to have kids is what is irresponsible.

 

[geocajun]

When a couple marries- what happens? When is the sacrament conferred?

Shannon, I believe you're confusing 'consumation' with 'conferal'. When the couple exchanges vows, the sacrament is conferred. Sex is neither the form or the matter of the sacrament
It is consumated when they have sex.

Contraception is all just a straw man for not trusting God, and for justifying selfishness. Sorry to be a little harsh- but that is truly my belief.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

But if you do not feel that you have any real reason to prevent pregnancy through the use of NFP then I fail to see how it is deemed irresponsible.

Its hard to disagree with this statement, but how often do married people have absolutely no reason to prevent a pregnancy ? Personally, in my marriage, never. Just a some point to the reaons to have kids outweigh the reasons not to.

They should feel bad for they type of prevention they use because barrier methods are just that barriers and they should feel bad if their mentality is anti baby but no, they should not feel bad for their disallows them, they’re is just a right moral way to handle it and a immoral way.

Now, here we go. You use a barrier method and you're automatically anit-baby and immoral.

I think that way of thinking is discriminatory isn't ? Didn't you point that out to me ? I mean if you don't want to llive up to your responsibilities I can't call it irrsponsibile, but you can call these guys immoral and anit-baby.

On spec.

Problems are life and we all have money situations but speaking from some experience here, if you want to excuse having children until the finical time is right, then you will never have them, because there never is a right finical time.

Also hard to disagree with but how does working through you money issues and not be quite there yet make you immortal

and anti-baby ?

No, no no. No baby ever puts a strain on marriage, I have 6 and have been married for 17 years, I know what I am talking about. It’s not the baby causing the strain. If you are not ready to receive children or handle stress even, then you are not ready for marriage over all.

Why are you overlaying their situation with yours ? Isn't that unfair, maybe even discriminatory (I am not sure). No baby ever stressed YOUR marraige. EVERY one of my kids stressed MINE. Who knows how they will react. Most marriages are stress by the addition of children.

You know, we could just leave it to their judgment. Like you want me to leave people alone who don't even take the fact that may get pregnant into consideration before fallling into bed together.
[/quote]

If they feel prevention is a must which the reasons you give I personally do not believe are,

And you get a vote in their marriage because......

but if one has to postpone then there is a moral way of going about it that is just as effective if not more effective but it requires sacrifice and self control, something not too many have these days and if you friends are not mature and responsible already then why are they married?

Um, I was an NFP for over 10 years. (Nothing is more dispised, BTW, amoung NFP'er the an ex-NFPer, they are very loyal to NFP)

Dirty little secret, shhhh, NRP isn't that hard, nor does it require much in the way of sacrifice and self control. People just like to say it does.

[/quote]

 

[Benedicta00]

I couldn't agree more.

Count me in that too. However, some people really do not know that is selfishness, they truly believe that is being responsible until being responsible causes them to have a nervous break down that is.

How sad a society we live in now days.

What family of 12 divorces? What father and husband of 8 goes and kills his wife and kids because he lost his job?


If good ppl can't see clearly enough how Satan is just having his way with us, we really are in trouble here.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Count me in that too. However, some people really do not know that is selfishness, they truly believe that is being responsible until being responsible causes them to have a nervous break down that is.

How sad a society we live in now days.

What family of 12 divorces? What father and husband of 8 goes and kills his wife and kids because he lost his job?


If good ppl can't see clearly enough how Satan is just having his way with us, we really are in trouble here.

What good people ? The selfish, immoral, anti-baby people ? The 12 times divorced 9 people killing people ?

I need a scorecard.

 

[Benedicta00]

Its hard to disagree with this statement, but how often do married people have absolutely no reason to prevent a pregnancy ? Personally, in my marriage, never. Just a some point to the reaons to have kids outweigh the reasons not to.

Some ppl do I never said they didn’t but look at what I was responding to Charlie, that trusting God is irresponsible. You think that trusting God in any and all thing including reproduction is irresponsible?

Now, here we go. You use a barrier method and you're automatically anit-baby and immoral.

No, you can be just plain deceived by it, thinking it isn't evil and harmful to your marriage but I was responding to the reasons given for using it, they are anti baby . The reasons insinuates that a baby would be a third wheel. No so. How sad that we think that now days, this is what I believe leads to the phenomena of men killing their pregnant wives and young infants along with their wife.

I think that way of thinking is discriminatory isn't ? Didn't you point that out to me ? I mean if you don't want to llive up to your responsibilities I can't call it irrsponsibile, but you can call these guys immoral and anit-baby.

Where did I say they were immoral? I said the means is always immoral and what the epitome of irresponsible is, is getting married when you can not have children and have to go out the way to make sure you don’t have them. That is also anti baby, to think a baby is an intrusion and a hard ship.

Also hard to disagree with but how does working through you money issues and not be quite there yet make you immortal

and anti-baby ?

Said the means were, not the ppl, I personally believe them to be dupe into the world’s POV and the enemy’s trickery that calls this Christian responsibility.

And anti baby is thinking a baby is a hard ship and the cause of stress in a marriage how ludicrous a thought and financial wellness would be the cause of joy. Hoe disordered can we get when we think these things?

Why are you overlaying their situation with yours ? Isn't that unfair, maybe even discriminatory (I am not sure). No baby ever stressed YOUR marraige. EVERY one of my kids stressed MINE. Who knows how they will react. Most marriages are stress by the addition of children.

My children stress me, not my marriage and what I do with that stress may effect my marriage but the human beings my kids are does not cause any harm to the marital bond between me and my spuse, in fact there is no greater bond between us than our kids.

You know, we could just leave it to their judgment. Like you want me to leave people alone who don't even take the fact that may get pregnant into consideration before fallling into bed together.

No, we must call evil and sin what they are when we see it.

 

[Benedicta00]

What good people ? The selfish, immoral, anti-baby people ? The 12 times divorced 9 people killing people ?

I need a scorecard.

People who think they are doing good by banning kids from their marriage who truly think that is Christian.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

No, you can be just plain deceived by it, thinking it isn't evil and harmful to your marriage but I was responding to the reasons given for using it, they are anti baby . The reasons insinuates that a baby would be a third wheel. No so. How sad that we think that now days, this is what I believe leads to the phenomena of men killing their pregnant wives and young infants along with their wife.

.

I can't write what I thought when I first read this but in involved a crutch.

I can't talk to you anymore.