If Calvinism is true....

Ormly · Jun 21, 2008

nobdysfool said:
JimfromOhio said:

Amazing how he justifies his sin.

Click to expand...

The laugh is on you. Nbfool.

That is isn't my quote you mock, but one of your own clan.

Funny, even though my name is inadvertently on it as the author [my error], you can't tell the difference between what you deem truth and error. If you had known it was Jim you would have praised him. Whatta trip you are.. . .phony

nobdysfool · Jun 21, 2008

Just to clarify, my post was accurate, and the reference is, as well. I refer to post 130, which was a reply to another poster's words, and what my post refers to, indirectly. The software this site uses sometimes adds an extra quote code. I quoted Jim's words to provide a reference to the post he replied to previously. The words were not Jim's, they were another's, and that poster knows full well they were his words. He may try to cover his sin, but the sin remains. Sarcasm has no place in theological discussion.

And my remark stands, "Amazing how he justifies his sin".

JimfromOhio · Jun 21, 2008

nobdysfool said:
My post was accurate, and the reference is, as well. I refer to post 130, which was a reply to another poster's words, and what my post refers to, indirectly. The software this site uses sometimes adds an extra quote code. The words were not Jim's, they were another's, and that poster knows full well they were his words. He may try to cover his sin, but the sin remains. Sarcasm has no place in theological discussion.

And my remark stands, "Amazing how he justifies his sin". Including replying to posts he know full well he is not to reply to. Apparently he believes that certain rules do not apply to him.

This forum's codes are confusing me with the quotes mix-ups.

nobdysfool · Jun 21, 2008

JimfromOhio said:
This forum's codes are confusing me with the quotes mix-ups.

Just watch the leading quotes when you quote a post. If it attributes someone else's words to you, change the name in the brackets to whose words they were, and don't forget to place the closing tag at the end of the quote ( [/quote] ) if it doesn't have one. It's just basic simple HTML. Basic rule: every opening tag must have a closing tag.

JimfromOhio · Jun 21, 2008

nobdysfool said:
Just watch the leading quotes when you quote a post. If it attributes someone else's words to you, change the name in the brackets to whose words they were, and don't forget to place the closing tag at the end of the quote (

) if it doesn't have one. It's just basic simple HTML. Basic rule: every opening tag must have a closing tag.[/quote]
I am now catching that. Thanks

nobdysfool · Jun 21, 2008

You're welcome, bro! Keep fighting the good fight. The naysayers are numerous here, and two in particular are nuisances.

Van · Jun 21, 2008

Calvinism is not true because it is unbiblical. It asserts our election unto salvation is unconditional, but scripture says those rich in faith are chosen. Calvinism says our individual election unto salvation occurred before the foundation of the world, but scripture says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. And 1 Peter 2:9-10 indicates we lived without mercy before we were chosen. Christ died for all men and therefore limited atonement as defined by Calvinism is false doctrine. And folks with sufficient faith to be entering heaven are turned aside by false doctrine, therefore irresistible grace is fiction.

MamaZ · Jun 22, 2008

Van said:
Calvinism is not true because it is unbiblical. It asserts our election unto salvation is unconditional, but scripture says those rich in faith are chosen. Calvinism says our individual election unto salvation occurred before the foundation of the world, but scripture says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. And 1 Peter 2:9-10 indicates we lived without mercy before we were chosen. Christ died for all men and therefore limited atonement as defined by Calvinism is false doctrine. And folks with sufficient faith to be entering heaven are turned aside by false doctrine, therefore irresistible grace is fiction.

If you would quit putting what you believe scripture is saying and just read it and believe it the truth would set you free. You quote your own view of scripture instead of scripture itself.

Van · Jun 22, 2008

I have quoted verbatim every verse I reference dozens of times. The mantra of Calvinism is to make false charges one after the other, and here is just another example. Note the effort to shift discuss from the false doctrines of Calvinism to my behavior. You can set your watch by it.

James 2:5, "Listen my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love Him?" (NASB). And what did I say concerning this verse? "Scripture says those rich in faith are chosen." The election is therefore conditional, and all anyone needs to do is just read the text.

heymikey80 · Jun 27, 2008

Calvinism is true because it is biblical.

1. Salvation is not unconditional, but it is the result of unconditional election unto salvation, and fortunately the evil human thoughts and actions of those elected are not condemned to void that outcome. Salvation is revealed through faith, God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

2. Perseverance of the saints is true, and no amount of subsequent sins will separate a person from the love of God. If a person continues in lawlessness, that is superficial evidence they were never set apart to salvation (thus never a saint). However we know the Spirit works in lawless people to remake them anew: we're not to judge based on criteria God doesn't set. But we're to believe God when he says no one can snatch them from His hands, and that nothing will separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus -- not even our continued life.

3. Limited atonement as defined by Calvinism is true, and Christ did die for all men. But not all men are saved. The elect obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

4. Irresistible grace is true and all those going to heaven were re-created by God such that they could only choose to trust in Christ. God's perfectly capable of making things right.

Anyone who understands Calvinism can answer many more of these questions. For example, if irresistible grace is true, that doesn't mean the effort is the same to save each person. It is still harder for a rich man to enter heaven. It takes God more effort. Or if election unto salvation is unconditional, God still says whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Conditions still exist -- they do not void the fact that God has ordained what will come to pass, and what will come to pass is that the saints will meet the conditions. This is not to deceive us, but to help us first live within our own world, and second, to help us identify who are saved. God isn't fatalistic. He's predestinating. See my tagline for the obvious difference between the two.

Van · Jun 27, 2008

Calvinism is not true as demonstrated by scripture.

Salvation is conditioned upon putting our faith in Christ alone, John 3:16.

Christ died for all men, and therefore Limited Atonement as defined by Calvinism is false, because Calvinism wrongly claims Christ died only for the elect. 1 JOhn 2:2

Irresistible grace is false, for men who had sufficient faith to be entering heaven were turned aside by false doctrine. Matthew 23:13

Total Spiritual Inability is false, for some unregenerate men received the gospel with joy. Matthew 13:20-22. And 1 Corinthians 3:1 teaches men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel.

Van · Jun 27, 2008

Did you notice that Heymikey80 said Christ died for all men and claimed that was the view of Calvinism? Calvinism is defended by denying its very doctrines.

Here is what Loraine Boettner said:
"It was not, then, a general and indiscriminate love of which all men were equally the objects, but a peculiar, mysterious, infinite love for His elect, which caused God to send His Son into the world to suffer and die. Any theory which denies this great and precious truth, and which would explain away this love as merely indiscriminate benevolence or philanthropy which had all men for its objects, many of whom are allowed to perish, must be unScriptural. Christ died not for an unorderly mass, but for His people, His bride, His Church."

MamaZ · Jun 27, 2008

Christ died for all men, and therefore Limited Atonement as defined by Calvinism is false, because Calvinism wrongly claims Christ died only for the elect. 1 JOhn 2:2

Where do you see Jesus died for all men in this scripture?

I see He Himself is the propitation for sin not man..

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

heymikey80 · Jun 27, 2008

Calvinism is true as demonstrated by scripture.

Van said:
Salvation is conditioned upon putting our faith in Christ alone, John 3:16.

Care to declare where Calvin stated salvation was unconditional?

Van said:
Christ died for all men, and therefore Limited Atonement as defined by Calvinism is false, because Calvinism wrongly claims Christ died only for the elect. 1 JOhn 2:2

You just said Christ didn't save everyone. "Salvation is conditioned upon [us] putting our faith in Christ alone." Care to explain how your atonement is not limited by this?

It is.

Van said:
Irresistible grace is false, for men who had sufficient faith to be entering heaven were turned aside by false doctrine. Matthew 23:13

Faith is given by God. Pp 1:29

Van said:
Total Spiritual Inability is false, for some unregenerate men received the gospel with joy. Matthew 13:20-22. And 1 Corinthians 3:1 teaches men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel.

Receiving the Gospel for sinful reasons (Mt 13:20-22) didn't save them either. This is consistent with Calvinism's Total Inability.

The inability under which he labors is not an inability to exercise volitions, but an inability to be willing to exercise holy volitions. Boettner, "Total Inability"

As for the other ...

But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 1 Cor 3:1

Apparently "infants in Christ" are unregenerate in your view. Not mine. They're already born again.

Van · Jun 27, 2008

Propitiation for the whole world is provided by Christ. And how did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world? By dying only for the elect? Give me a break!

Apparently you disagree with Heymikey80 who says Christ died for all men. Why not just state your position and disagreement? Cat got your tongue?

MamaZ · Jun 27, 2008

Propitiation for the whole world is provided by Christ.

Nope scripture says sin.. Not men not sinners so therefore scripture stands as it is written.. For the sins..

MamaZ · Jun 27, 2008

How does a man have His sin Forgiven? Through Christ. Who can come to Christ? Those whom the Father draws of those whom the Father gives to Christ..

heymikey80 · Jun 27, 2008

Van said:
Did you notice that Heymikey80 said Christ died for all men and claimed that was the view of Calvinism? Calvinism is defended by denying its very doctrines.

No, Calvinism is defended by bringing to light the nature of all sorts of ambiguities in your language.

You meant "all men" as each and every individual, without exception. I meant "all men" as it was meant historically, as all men generally and indiscriminantly, without a special emphasis on something in them.

"Two points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish." John Calvin

But while you're at it, feel free to explain why God will punish people Christ has atoned for.

heymikey80 · Jun 27, 2008

Van said:
Propitiation for the whole world is provided by Christ. And how did Christ become the propitiation for the whole world? By dying only for the elect?

John didn't say Christ provided the propitiation for the whole world.

John said Christ is the propitiation for the whole world.

Care to explain why any wrath remains if the whole world without exception in every detail is propitiated?

Calvinism answers this directly. "all" isn't comprehensive, in every detail. All could tell you this if you'd listen to them at all. "All" isn't a word that means all that, even in English. People are all ways trying to force it to mean that, but at all events it ends up not being all that convincing. All at once it doesn't make quite the impact you all were saying.

Van · Jun 27, 2008

Heymikey said:
Salvation is not unconditional,

Heymikey said:
Care to declare where Calvin stated salvation was unconditional?

What I said is that Salvation is conditioned upon putting our faith in Christ alone, John 3:16.

Does Philippians 1:29 says faith is given or God has allowed them to believe? God granted or allowed them to believe, He did not preclude it. There is absolutely no support in scripture for the fiction of the instilling of the "gift of faith" prior to salvation. And note folks, the shift of subject, the issue is irresistible grace and rather than discuss a verse that demonstrates God's call is not irresistible, the subject is changed to another verse.

And then yet another denial of Calvinism's doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability. The doctrine says because we are dead in our sins, we have no ability to seek God, to hear the gospel, to understand the gospel, or to respond to the gospel. Everyone is like the first soil in the parable of the four soils according to Calvinism, and that is demonstrated false by the other three soils.

And then yet another misrepresentation of my position, claiming my view is apparently that babes in Christ are unregenerate. Babes in Christ have the same understanding level as men in the flesh because they have not yet matured, they are not ready for meat.

Heymikey's version of Calvinism has redefined Total Spiritual Inability to Limited Spiritual Ability, and Limited Atonement to say Christ died for all men. Thus his form of Calvinism closer to scripture, closer to the truth. And no Calvinist has said he is off the reservation.

If Calvinism is true....

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