If Calvinism is true....

[chestertonrules]

1: If salvation is unconditional, then human thoughts and actions are irrelevant to salvation.

True or False?

If False, please explain.


2: If perseverence of the saints is true, then no amount of sin or blasphemy will separate a person once saved from God.

True or False?

If False, please explain.

3: If limited atonement is true, then Jesus did not die for the whole world, but only for the elect. Therefore, all statments in the bible stating that Jesus died for all men, the world, every man, etc. must be ignored.

True or False?

If False, please explain.

4: If irresistible grace is true, then those who are saved do not have free will. Only those who go to hell have free will and all all others are robots.

True or false?

If False, please explain.

 

[Van]

Answers:

1. If salvation is unconditional, the foreordained result of unconditional election unto salvation, then human thoughts and actions are irrelevant to the outcome. Yes that would be true, but since salvation is conditioned upon God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness, the whole premise is bogus.

2. If perseverance of the saints is true, then no amount of subsequent sins will separate a person from the love of God. Yes, that is true, but if a person practices lawlessness, that is evidence they were never set aside (thus never a saint). In other words, this is a "have you stopped beating your wife" question where neither yes or no presents the truth.

3. Yes, if limited atonement as defined by Calvinism, is true, and Christ did not die for all men, then all the passages that teach this biblical truth must be made to no effect by the traditions of men.

4. Yes, if irresistible grace is true, and it is not, then all those going to heaven were altered by God such that they could only choose to trust in Christ.

Anyone who has been confronted with Calvinism can add many more of these questions. For example, if irresistible grace is true, then it is not harder for a rich man to enter heaven. Or if election unto salvation is unconditional, why did God say whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life? To deceive us?

 

[chestertonrules]

2. If perseverance of the saints is true, then no amount of subsequent sins will separate a person from the love of God. Yes, that is true, but if a person practices lawlessness, that is evidence they were never set aside (thus never a saint). In other words, this is a "have you stopped beating your wife" question where neither yes or no presents the truth.

These verses seem to indicate to me that a person can be a true follower of Christ and be "saved" but still later walk away and lose that salvation:

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".


Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

 

[chestertonrules]

Answers:


Anyone who has been confronted with Calvinism can add many more of these questions. For example, if irresistible grace is true, then it is not harder for a rich man to enter heaven. Or if election unto salvation is unconditional, why did God say whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life? To deceive us?

Why are these points, which are so obvious to you and I, ignored by most Calvinists on these board?

I know several ex Calvinists, so who knows, maybe will are gradually getting through.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable. Pride resisted Grace while Humility embraces Grace.

 

[Ormly]

Effectual calling alone saves and is irresistable. Pride resisted Grace while Humility embraces Grace.

What makes it irresistible?

 

[jmacvols]

1: If salvation is unconditional, then human thoughts and actions are irrelevant to salvation.

True or False?

I suspect Calvinists would answer 'true', then ironically add the condition that even though salvation is unconditional it does not give one the license to sin, hence making thoughts and actions relevant...but then if salvation is unconditional...thus making thoughts and actions irrelevant...

 

[jmacvols]

2. If perseverance of the saints is true, then no amount of subsequent sins will separate a person from the love of God. Yes, that is true, but if a person practices lawlessness, that is evidence they were never set aside (thus never a saint). In other words, this is a "have you stopped beating your wife" question where neither yes or no presents the truth.

But everyone "practices lawlessness" i.e., sins and this includes you. Therefore your sins are evidence that you were never set aside (thus never a saint)? If not, why does this not apply to you but only to others?

 

[Reformationist]

1: If salvation is unconditional, then human thoughts and actions are irrelevant to salvation.

True or False?

If False, please explain.


2: If perseverence of the saints is true, then no amount of sin or blasphemy will separate a person once saved from God.

True or False?

If False, please explain.

3: If limited atonement is true, then Jesus did not die for the whole world, but only for the elect. Therefore, all statments in the bible stating that Jesus died for all men, the world, every man, etc. must be ignored.

True or False?

If False, please explain.

4: If irresistible grace is true, then those who are saved do not have free will. Only those who go to hell have free will and all all others are robots.

True or false?

If False, please explain.

I'm curious...if I take the time to answer your questions are you going to conduct yourself in a courteous manner or are you interested in simply arguing and denigrating those with whom you disagree?

 

[JimfromOhio]

What makes it irresistible?

God's grace through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

However, we see pride resists the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ormly]

God's grace through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

However, we see pride resists the Holy Spirit.

O, really? You mean God's grace is irresistible but the somehow Holy Spirit isn't?

Interesting. That should be a clue to you that something is amiss with the doctrine that has snared you.. You don't make sense.

 

[JimfromOhio]

O, really? You mean God's grace is irresistible but the somehow Holy Spirit isn't?

Interesting. That should be a clue to you that something is amiss with the doctrine that has snared you.. You don't make sense.

Its funny, an Apostle said to a group of religious people in Acts 7:51, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

Spiritual conviction of the Holy Spirit leads us to "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death" (2 Corinthians 7:10) that leads people to involve works.

 

[chestertonrules]

I'm curious...if I take the time to answer your questions are you going to conduct yourself in a courteous manner or are you interested in simply arguing and denigrating those with whom you disagree?

You should be aware by now that I respond in the manner I'm addressed, or haven't you noticed?

 

[heymikey80]

Why are these points, which are so obvious to you and I, ignored by most Calvinists on these board?

Maybe because you're not listening to the reams and reams of responses on these boards. You ask. We answer. Then you ask the same inanity. And we answer. And then you complain that these points are ignored?

Please. Anyone can read.

These points are pervasively and comprehensively answered in the accumulation of just the basic books on Calvinism. They're simple. They're direct. And you're wondering why we don't agree with you? Because you've no idea what Calvinism really is.

And for the record: I'm an ex-non-Calvinist.

 

[heymikey80]

1. If salvation is unconditional, the foreordained result of unconditional election unto salvation, then human thoughts and actions are irrelevant to the outcome. Yes that would be true, but since salvation is conditioned upon God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness, the whole premise is bogus.

Wrong.
Results.
Not causes.

How many times must this point be repeated?

Your premise is bogus, so your challenge is bogus.

2. If perseverance of the saints is true, then no amount of subsequent sins will separate a person from the love of God. Yes, that is true, but if a person practices lawlessness, that is evidence they were never set aside (thus never a saint). In other words, this is a "have you stopped beating your wife" question where neither yes or no presents the truth.

The point being, that humans aren't privy to the truth about another. They may observe what is observable. God hasn't given people more.

"Not everything is soteriology."

3. Yes, if limited atonement as defined by Calvinism, is true, and Christ did not die for all men, then all the passages that teach this biblical truth must be made to no effect by the traditions of men.

Already answered. Scripture rarely even implies this is true, and those implications have been answered pervasively.

4. Yes, if irresistible grace is true, and it is not, then all those going to heaven were altered by God such that they could only choose to trust in Christ.

I guess the Spirit of God can deny himself in van's theology?

Anyone who has been confronted with Calvinism can add many more of these questions. For example, if irresistible grace is true, then it is not harder for a rich man to enter heaven. Or if election unto salvation is unconditional, why did God say whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life? To deceive us?

Already answered.

Accumulating all the same questions into a new spot and claiming they're not answered, that's not a reasonable assertion to make. Were you to actually read responses other than to believe that simply "lettin' it fly means I win", you might actually recognize further questions that you have with the viewpoint.

Then you might actually begin to understand what Calvinism is.

Wouldn't that be horrible?

 

[heymikey80]

This is just a rehash of another identical posting.
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7246281&page=5

 

[Ormly]

Maybe because you're not listening to the reams and reams of responses on these boards. You ask. We answer. Then you ask the same inanity. And we answer. And then you complain that these points are ignored?.

I have been reading and see that you all keep repeating the mantra, while not EVER addressing the veracity of it, that faith given to the regenerate is a gift.

That cannot be found in scripture to be true; to be believed. Believing it causes the rest of the Bible to be skewed to your understanding. When pointed out that Eph.2:8 is mis-read by you [all] you ignore it and keep on truckin'. Until that issue is resolved, nothing on this forum will be worthwhile discussing. By "resolve" I mean that it must be argued out to a conclusion to be the truth that faith is not a gift from God for salvation otherwise, for me, you all just aren't sincere. Argue it out to the truth of it and be willing to be adjusted by that truth.

To the really insincere, I ask, please don't come back with a denial as to this being factually what you do.

Grace is the gift, not faith. It is only the reprobate who cannot believe for it and receive the gift of God's Grace. That's good Bible.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I have been reading and see that you all keep repeating the mantra, while not EVER addressing the veracity of it, that faith given to the regenerate is a gift.

That cannot be found in scripture to be true; to be believed. Believing it causes the rest of the Bible to be skewed to your understanding. When pointed out that Eph.2:8 is mis-read by you [all] you ignore it and keep on truckin'. Until that issue is resolved, nothing on this forum will be worthwhile discussing. By "resolve" I mean that it must be argued out to a conclusion to be the truth that faith is not a gift from God for salvation otherwise, for me, you all just aren't sincere. Argue it out to the truth of it and be willing to be adjusted by that truth.

To the really insincere, I ask, please don't come back with a denial as to this being factually what you do.

Grace is the gift, not faith. It is only the reprobate who cannot believe for it and receive the gift of God's Grace. That's good Bible.

Grace is a gift from God which often is rejected rather than convicted to receive it. Grace has nothing to do with the will or the mind but rather the condition of our hearts (pride). Either our pride is destroyed by grace or rejected by pride.

 

[Ormly]

Grace is a gift from God which often is rejected rather than convicted to receive it. Grace has nothing to do with the will or the mind but rather the condition of our hearts (pride). Either our pride is destroyed by grace or rejected by pride.

God's grace has nothing ata ll with all that from you.


As Chamber's has it: "God's Grace is the overflow of His Nature". Understand that cocept and other things of God might become more clear to you. Tozer might even read differently.

 

[MamaZ]

so if we are saved by grace through faith and that not of ouselves but a gift from God. Why would the scriptures not say. We are saved by grace not of our selves but a gift from God through faith?