If belief in Jesus is required...

[LaBarre]

for salvation, then what about the people who lived before Him? How were they "saved"? And why the change....why have Jesus come and change the way people were saved?

Thanks for helping.

 

[drich0150]

for salvation, then what about the people who lived before Him? How were they "saved"?

All of those people (who loved God) were looking forward to the coming of the messiah, and all of us since Jesus are looking back. In the same way those who Loved God looking forward, are saved by the same grace of all of us who are looking back.

why have Jesus come and change the way people were saved?

He didn't.

 

[70x7]

Throughout the OT, the knowledge of a redeemer was well known (first reference was listed in Genesis). Pre-Jesus folk may not have known that a Man named Jesus would take care of everything x years later, but they believed that one day thier sins would be paid for by the One Who Is To Come. Faith was what they were all about back then. Abraham had faith in God and he was a righteous man. Moses and Aaron were faithful. Daniel, Joseph, etc etc and the list goes on. No reference to Jesus per se, but a clear belief in God Himself.

 

[98cwitr]

The Holy Spirit went and preached in Hades...those that repented thus became "saved"

1 Peter 3:18-22

please read the Bible...all of it...and put all of it into context

Jesus had to come because NO ONE was following the Law...God so loved the world that a change had to be made.

 

[drich0150]

please read the Bible...all of it...and put all of it into context

Jesus had to come because NO ONE was following the Law...God so loved the world that a change had to be made.

We have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Even now we All fall short. Jesus "Came" because it was always apart of the original plan, lest you forget all of the prophesy fore telling of the coming messiah.

The original covenant between God and the Jews was to establish the standard or the Law, of which none of us, or the Jews were expected to follow to obtain true righteousness. We were given this standard to show all of us, that we will always fall short of true righteousness. To which demands a blood sacrifice for the atonement for sin. Setting the stage for the sacrifice Jesus was to make for the atonement of all sin.

The Jews didn't lose favor with God because they couldn't follow the Law, so in turn God had to send Jesus.. If this were true, and God could not see how the Jews would let Him down, would he be God? Could God be put in a position where he would be made to simply react? If He could be place in that sort of position, What does that say about the Omnipotence of God?

The Jews were given the gift of the law and the Honor of being set apart by God to be the keepers of His law till the coming of the Messiah. Their efforts, and best intentions proved to the rest of us (among other things) that true righteousness is and was never intended to be obtained by keeping God's law. God in fact knew all of this, and because of this, Had in mind our plan of salvation even before the fall of man.

 

[Van]

Hi LaBarre, one of the tenets of Christianity is we are saved by faith alone, and not by faith and works. The Old Testament saints gained approval by faith. In Luke 16, Jesus tells us of a place called Abraham's bosom, which is where the Old Testament saints who gained approval by faith, were taken before Jesus died on the cross. But it was like a temporary holding cell. God had planned something better for us, those who gain approval by faith in Jesus, when we die we go to heaven and are with Jesus. When we are born again, during our lifetime, we are "perfected" by being "in Jesus" spiritually. Once Jesus died on the cross, He was able to take the Old Testament saints out of the temporary holding cell, and together with us, now are perfected as well and enter heaven.

So as others have noted, the folks who were saved before Jesus died, we saved by faith in God, and those saved after Jesus died were saved by faith in God in the flesh, Jesus Christ. You can read all about it in Hebrews chapter 11.

 

[LaBarre]

Does the phrase "...believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth..." sound familiar to any of you? I was told as a kid, that in order to be saved, you had to literally confess your belief to a person, and ask Jesus to come into your heart...then you would be declared saved."

If I understand you all correctly, then all a person needs to do is believe in God.....no little "ceremony" required?

And....the coming of Jesus was necessary because God knew humans would screw up, and had a solution for our fall all ready to go. Correct?

Any idea why a blood sacrifice was necessary for the atonement of sin? God makes the rules....why did He choose that?

And while I understand the idea that the law had to be established for us to see that we will always fall short....wouldn't it have worked either way....with Jesus coming in the beginning, or later? Whether we were OT people or NT, we still have rules to follow and aren't supposed to sin, yet always do. So I don't see the point of establishing the law, which would have happened anyway. (But in the scheme of things, that's not really important....as what's done it done!)

By the way, who wrote the OT? And why? I know that Proverbs is a wisdom book and was used to instruct boys, but who decided to start writing Genesis, Exodus, etc. and them put them in a collection to keep? How did Jesus' religion start?

Thanks again for your help everyone. Sorry for all the questions. As much as I like learning about this, it drives me crazy because for every one thing I learn, sixteen questions pop up!

LaBarre

 

[fm107]

"If I understand you all correctly, then all a person needs to do is believe in God.....no little "ceremony" required?"

That's right,

Acts 16:31
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

..................................................................................................

"Any idea why a blood sacrifice was necessary for the atonement of sin? God makes the rules....why did He choose that?"

The answer lies here: Why did God require animal sacrifices in the Old Testament?

..................................................................................................

"By the way, who wrote the OT? And why?"

The different books of the old testiment were written by different prophets etc. But know this:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed

Although it was written by prophets etc, it was communicated to these holy men by the Spirit of God.

It was written for lots of reasons, as evidence of God (historical if nothing else), it was written to keep account of God's laws and the history of his people. It was written to keep account of prophecies of the comming of Christ.
..................................................................................................

"How did Jesus' religion start?"

It was there from the beginning. I think what your referring to his the New Testement which contains the life of Jesus. The Prophet John proclaimed the Christ in the dessert.

John's Gospel:

John 1:1-34
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’” 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.
John the Baptist Denies Being the Christ
19Now this was John’s testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Christ.”
21They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the Prophet?”
He answered, “No.”
22Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”
24Now some Pharisees who had been sent 25questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26“I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know. 27He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”
28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Jesus the Lamb of God
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”
32Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

Thanks for the questions, keep asking!

 

[Van]

Hi LaBarre, all these questions just popped into your mind?

Declaring a person "saved" means nothing. How would the person making the declaration know? Only God knows, and according to my understanding it is God who does the saving. He is the one who credits our faith as righteousness. So if you believe from the heart... and only God would be in a position to discern whether you do or not, and confess with your mouth.... What does confessing before others actually mean. It means you trust in Jesus and you are not ashamed of Jesus, but are willing to risk everything by telling folks from a culture that holds Jesus in low regard.

God created mankind with the ability to choose to follow God, or not. This capacity to sin was necessary for men to choose God and bring God glory. And when the first man chose to sin, he was separated from God, and thus all his descendants are conceived in a separated from God sinful state. Jesus reconciled mankind to God, and therefore anyone who receives the reconciliation has eternal life. Was the plan predetermined before the fall? Yes. But it was implemented according to God's timetable, and not the timetable of fallen men.

No, there is no reason given for why God's plan included the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sin. A million questions can be generated using the "why did God do this and not - insert alternate? They all amount to the same thing. A refusal to accept the sovereignty of God.

We could speculate, if the forgiveness of sin did not have a great price, why not sin and sin and sin because it costs nothing to forgive it. But such a guess has no basis in scripture. It is enough to realize that God's plan provides for fulfilling His intended purpose.

Next we are repeat of the same theme, why did God not send Jesus at the beginning, rather than promise to send Jesus later. Same answer, God's predetermined plan was implemented according to His timetable, not the timetable of fallen men.

Who wrote the Bible? According to Paul, all scripture is inspired, so God gave the message to folks, and they wrote it down, or had it written down by a scribe. At the beginning of each book, the author - meaning the person God inspired - is listed except that we are unsure of actually who wrote some books or parts of books. For example, Moses compiled the first five books, but somebody unknown wrote the part that describes Moses' burial.

How did Christianity start? With the public ministry of Jesus Christ.

 

[drich0150]

"...believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth..." sound familiar to any of you? I was told as a kid, that in order to be saved, you had to literally confess your belief to a person, and ask Jesus to come into your heart...then you would be declared saved."

Why would you do any of this? Is it to escape Hell? or is it because as the greatest command states You love the lord with all of your Heart, Soul, Spirit, and Strength. If you want to goto Heaven just to avoid Hell your missing the whole Point to Heaven.

Heaven is just the place where all those who Love God with all of their being, can do so. The greatest command isn't something new, it is, and always has been the common thread to our purpose here in this life. Whether that be under the Old Covent or the New.

In the Old Covent our Love was expressed through our attempts to up hold the Law's, ceremonies, and in respecting it's special day's. In the New Covent we are expected to do whatever it is that we understand to be a proper confession of our love to God. Either way in this age or the last, it wasn't our actions that was accredited to our righteousness, it was the reason we did them.
Just like now all who seek Heaven just to be a member of a gated community with Gold bricked streets and a mansion on every corner, would only be disappointed even if they got in. But, to those who seek Heaven just to be with God will get everything their Heart ever wanted.

We now, in the "last days" we share the same desire that the righteous did "in the beginning" (David, Daniel, Moses, etc,etc..) We Love God with all of our being, and just because we are to express it differently doesn't change God, Our intent or or the intent of those who came before.

You have to remember God is more than a ceremony or a chain of religious steps to be carried out to win a prize. He is and should be the greatest Love of our lives, and as such pursued in a way befitting of that title. (Which may vary from person to person.)

 

[LaBarre]

Thank you all very much for taking so much time to respond to my questions...I'm learning things I haven't heard before even though I've tried off and on for about 20 years to be a Christian.

And yes, Van. These questions just pop up. It's one reason that reading the Bible and going to church are so extremely difficult for me....uncomfortable really. So, I don't do either very often. I'm never sure if I interpret a passage correctly, so I want to know what the "experts/scholars" say...and even then they could be wrong. When listening to a sermon...well...I like to know if he's studied the original languages and is very familiar with ancient Biblical culture, because I want to know that he/she has it right.

An example: A professor in college showed the class the difference between two Bible translations (I think it was King James and RSV). One version use the term "harlot", and the other "a young woman of marrying age" (or something like that). Um, big difference. God wants us to learn His word, right? Well, that's means I need the most correct Bible translation, the most knowledgeable ministers and so on.

So, I get nothing done because I rarely try. Too many questions, too much to understand, and too much work to get it done. Don't get me wrong - if I could have a team of Bible experts around every day...I would love learning everything. But I would also go crazy.

Anyway, back to what I've learned from your comments.

Belief is all that is necessary for salvation. No ceremony. (Okay, someone also said faith. What is the difference?)

This means, that I can sit here quietly at the computer, decide I believe in God....and I'm saved? (Sorry, I'm having a problem with this, because the church I went to as a child, plus my Aunt (unhappily deemed as the religious nut) said otherwise. It's hard to give that idea up.)

Still don't get why blood is necessary...even after reading about the OT practices. But, like Van says...there's that whole God is sovereign thing. (meaning....God is boss, He gets to make the rules and they stay rules even if LaBarre doesn't get it. Good. Surprisingly, this is a very helpful info as I can just cross some questions off my list.)

drich0150 actually scared me. He asked "why would you do this....to escape Hell?"
Uh. Yup. Did that. Was more afraid of Hell, than had belief in God. That's a horrible thing to say, I know. I'm sorry, and I'm not at all happy with myself for it, but lying to myself or God isn't going to work either.

This is where I am today: I might technically be a Christian. However, I've never felt like one. Yes, I realize that is usually not how one's salvation is indicated....but....for my own personal barometer to feel like that probably means there's a reason for it. I have a lot of problems believing in God (I'm one of those who wants proof. Now, I dare you....ask me what kind of proof would work, and how much would make me happy?

About 3 years ago, I actually believed that there was no God. I don't remember what did it....some information I read...."proof" that there was no God. That. Was. Devastating. I was shocked how much that affected me and finally understood what people meant when they said that without God there was no purpose in life. It really was miserable.

And here I am today, on this forum, peppering you all with questions. Go figure.

I have finally decided that there is no historical, archaeological, or scientific proof that will prove God's existence. And I'm starting to think that is not a bad thing. Shoot, I've spent more time trying to proof there's a God, than I did proving that the woman standing in front of me yesterday at the Dr.'s office was a bona fide doctor. (didn't spend any time, actually. Really, is that faith, or stupidity?) Yes, I can see, hear, and look at her diploma and know she's real, while God is invisible and all, but...

Okay, I could keep blathering on for a while so I should stop. I'm going to go read someone's earlier post about how much belief is necessary....for something.

 

[zaksmummy]

Does the phrase "...believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth..." sound familiar to any of you? I was told as a kid, that in order to be saved, you had to literally confess your belief to a person, and ask Jesus to come into your heart...then you would be declared saved."

If I understand you all correctly, then all a person needs to do is believe in God.....no little "ceremony" required?

And....the coming of Jesus was necessary because God knew humans would screw up, and had a solution for our fall all ready to go. Correct?

Any idea why a blood sacrifice was necessary for the atonement of sin? God makes the rules....why did He choose that?

And while I understand the idea that the law had to be established for us to see that we will always fall short....wouldn't it have worked either way....with Jesus coming in the beginning, or later? Whether we were OT people or NT, we still have rules to follow and aren't supposed to sin, yet always do. So I don't see the point of establishing the law, which would have happened anyway. (But in the scheme of things, that's not really important....as what's done it done!)

By the way, who wrote the OT? And why? I know that Proverbs is a wisdom book and was used to instruct boys, but who decided to start writing Genesis, Exodus, etc. and them put them in a collection to keep? How did Jesus' religion start?

Thanks again for your help everyone. Sorry for all the questions. As much as I like learning about this, it drives me crazy because for every one thing I learn, sixteen questions pop up!

LaBarre

I cant do the multi quote thing but will try to answer some of these things.

Jesus' basic message was this "repent [of your sin] and be baptised". Repenting of sins is what God required to establish a relationship with him, becuse he is Holy and without sin, and cannot stand to be near it. The baptism is a outward sign of the inner repentance. In the time of Jesus when a person had sinned, they would take their sacrifice to the Temple, repent, go down into a Mikvah pool (Mikvah being the Hebrew word equivalant of Baptism which is greek), take their sacrifice and slaughter it after laying their hands on it and transferring their sin to the animal.

The reason that the animal was sacrificed is because the wages of sin is death - Im sure you've heard that verse. So the animal is taking the place of the repentant person - so that they do not die.

So Jesus' death took away the sins of the world once and for all.

"The law" as you call, in Hebrew is Torah which does not hold the same conatations - it is better translated as "to point straight or to hit the mark" or more simply "the best way to live". God have an instruction manual on they best way that he know will make us happy and keep us "on the straight and narrow", but because we are fallible he also provided a way to remain close to him, under the Torah through the sacrifices.

As others have already said it was a persons faith the the Messiah which "saved" them, and this faith worked its way out through the repentance of these people.

It is commonly held that Moses wrote the Torah, which the first five books Genesis-Duetoronomy, Prophets have their writings names after them. Not sure about some of the others.

And lastly - keep the questions coming this way you can get to know of God but bear in mind that if you want to truly know God then you have to have a little faith. Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed can cause a mountain to uproot itself and throw itself into the sea! God also says that his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways - in other words when you think you have him pinned down in a box, you really dont

 

[drich0150]

Belief is all that is necessary for salvation. No ceremony. (Okay, someone also said faith. What is the difference?)

This means, that I can sit here quietly at the computer, decide I believe in God....and I'm saved? (Sorry, I'm having a problem with this, because the church I went to as a child, plus my Aunt (unhappily deemed as the religious nut) said otherwise. It's hard to give that idea up.)

Going through a religious ceremony is not a sin, it just a poor substitute for what the ceremony is supposed to represent (Love.) Most pop christians look to religious ceremony as a right of passage or an item to be check off a list somewhere. For instance Baptism can be a beautiful expression of one's faith to God.. That is if that person gets baptized for the right reason.. If your heart is not right then your baptism becomes just a public dunking.

It's like having a big wedding, if there isn't any love in the relationship then no matter what you spend, you not going to be able to change the loveless persons heart. So without love for God what we do through pomp and ceremony means nothing.. It because the standard God uses is based on Love.

So it is possible to quietly sit at your computer and love God with all of your being, and be found righteous before the Lord, Just like it is possible to go through all of the ceremonies your denomination utilizes, and not love God. This is why it can be said that it is not the ceremony that saves, but it is our Love for God and His Love for us.

That said, anyone planning to get married would want to have the "big ceremony" if the other person wanted it, and it was well with in there power to do it. The Big ceremony is not what marries you it's just an expression or a show of love and dedication to the other person. Likewise if you Love God with all of your being then you view ceremony as an opportunity to show your love for God.

Like I said before it not what you do, it's why your doing it that is important.

 

[drich0150]

Still don't get why blood is necessary...even after reading about the OT practices. But, like Van says...there's that whole God is sovereign thing. (meaning....God is boss, He gets to make the rules and they stay rules even if LaBarre doesn't get it. Good. Surprisingly, this is a very helpful info as I can just cross some questions off my list.)

Because the wadge of sin, is Death. Sin can not be over looked without the innocent dying for the guilty. It's because we live in sin that we do not have a proper understanding of it. It's like those who live near a paper mill or sewadge treatment facility, after so many years they can't smell it anymore. The same is true here, Because sin is away of life for us, we do not have the tools or the ablity to see what sin really means.

Because God is righteous, He can not let sin go unpunished. Because we are built in His image we have a peice of this righteousness in us. (to see the guilty punished)

 

[socialchameleon]

The Holy Spirit went and preached in Hades...those that repented thus became "saved"

1 Peter 3:18-22

please read the Bible...all of it...and put all of it into context

Jesus had to come because NO ONE was following the Law...God so loved the world that a change had to be made.

Then surely in the world as it is today (religious war, crime, poverty, famine etc etc) this needs to happen "again"? Why was no one following the law in the first place?

Furthermore, if I was "burning in hell for all eternity" and someone came along and asked me to repent to be saved you can bet your life I'd be the first repenting! Also, how was this even known by Peter?

 

[socialchameleon]

The same is true here, Because sin is away of life for us, we do not have the tools or the ablity to see what sin really means.

Because God is righteous, He can not let sin go unpunished. Because we are built in His image we have a peice of this righteousness in us. (to see the guilty punished)

Wouldnt it be more handy to have a peice of the ability to see sin so as to avoid it completely?

 

[zaksmummy]

Wouldnt it be more handy to have a peice of the ability to see sin so as to avoid it completely?

The problem is that as fallible creatures we cannot avoid sinning that is why God made a way for us to be forgiven.

 

[zaksmummy]

Still don't get why blood is necessary...even after reading about the OT practices.

I would like to refer you to The Harvest, Kehilat T’nuvah, a Messianic Charismatic Congregation in Thornton, Colorado. They have a series of podcasts done by their Torah teacher Ariel ben Lyman about the sacrificial system of the OT and how and why Jesus fulfilled this.