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If Adam and Eve did not exist........

AmericanChristian91

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I know that many Catholics accept evolution, though I know the belief that Mankind came from two people is also accepted by Catholics.

I also know, that other people say that the population that existed in the days of the earliest humans (referring to homo-sapiens, not the other groups) was larger then just two individuals.

So lets say hypothetically speaking these people are right. The Church is wrong in this matter, that there is no historical adam and eve that gave rise to all of Mankind (at least in the days of homo sapiens, perhaps some could say adam and eve were in fact in even earlier days).

How would this affect your faith? Especially the concept of "Original Sin" (could a variant of it still exist even if sin did not come from just two people?)
 
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Michie

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Adam, Eve, and Evolution

The controversy surrounding evolution touches on our most central beliefs about ourselves and the world. Evolutionary theories have been used to answer questions about the origins of the universe, life, and man. These may be referred to as cosmological evolution, biological evolution, and human evolution. One’s opinion concerning one of these areas does not dictate what one believes concerning others.

People usually take three basic positions on the origins of the cosmos, life, and man:

(1) special or instantaneous creation, (2) developmental creation or theistic evolution, (3) and atheistic evolution. The first holds that a given thing did not develop, but was instantaneously and directly created by God. The second position holds that a given thing did develop from a previous state or form, but that this process was under God’s guidance. The third position claims that a thing developed due to random forces alone.

Related to the question of how the universe, life, and man arose is the question of when they arose. Those who attribute the origin of all three to special creation often hold that they arose at about the same time, perhaps six thousand to ten thousand years ago. Those who attribute all three to atheistic evolution have a much longer time scale. They generally hold the universe to be ten billion to twenty billion years old, life on earth to be about four billion years old, and modern man (the subspecies homo sapiens) to be about thirty thousand years old. Those who believe in varieties of developmental creation hold dates used by either or both of the other two positions.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Catholic Position[/FONT]


What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Time Question[/FONT]


Much less has been defined as to when the universe, life, and man appeared. The Church has infallibly determined that the universe is of finite age—that it has not existed from all eternity—but it has not infallibly defined whether the world was created only a few thousand years ago or whether it was created several billion years ago.

Catholics should weigh the evidence for the universe’s age by examining biblical and scientific evidence. "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 159).

The contribution made by the physical sciences to examining these questions is stressed by the Catechism, which states, "The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers" (CCC 283).

It is outside the scope of this tract to look at the scientific evidence, but a few words need to be said about the interpretation of Genesis and its six days of creation. While there are many interpretations of these six days, they can be grouped into two basic methods of reading the account—a chronological reading and a topical reading.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Chronological Reading[/FONT]


According to the chronological reading, the six days of creation should be understood to have followed each other in strict chronological order. This view is often coupled with the claim that the six days were standard 24-hour days.

Some have denied that they were standard days on the basis that the Hebrew word used in this passage for day (yom) can sometimes mean a longer-than-24-hour period (as it does in Genesis 2:4). However, it seems clear that Genesis 1 presents the days to us as standard days. At the end of each one is a formula like, "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" (Gen. 1:5). Evening and morning are, of course, the transition points between day and night (this is the meaning of the Hebrew terms here), but periods of time longer than 24 hours are not composed of a day and a night. Genesis is presenting these days to us as 24-hour, solar days. If we are not meant to understand them as 24-hour days, it would most likely be because Genesis 1 is not meant to be understood as a literal chronological account.

That is a possibility. Pope Pius XII warned us, "What is the literal sense of a passage is not always as obvious in the speeches and writings of the ancient authors of the East, as it is in the works of our own time. For what they wished to express is not to be determined by the rules of grammar and philology alone, nor solely by the context; the interpreter must, as it were, go back wholly in spirit to those remote centuries of the East and with the aid of history, archaeology, ethnology, and other sciences, accurately determine what modes of writing, so to speak, the authors of that ancient period would be likely to use, and in fact did use. For the ancient peoples of the East, in order to express their ideas, did not always employ those forms or kinds of speech which we use today; but rather those used by the men of their times and countries. What those exactly were the commentator cannot determine as it were in advance, but only after a careful examination of the ancient literature of the East" (Divino Afflante Spiritu 35–36).

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]The Topical Reading[/FONT]


This leads us to the possiblity that Genesis 1 is to be given a non-chronological, topical reading. Advocates of this view point out that, in ancient literature, it was common to sequence historical material by topic, rather than in strict chronological order.

The argument for a topical ordering notes that at the time the world was created, it had two problems—it was "formless and empty" (1:2). In the first three days of creation, God solves the formlessness problem by structuring different aspects of the environment.

On day one he separates day from night; on day two he separates the waters below (oceans) from the waters above (clouds), with the sky in between; and on day three he separates the waters below from each other, creating dry land. Thus the world has been given form.

But it is still empty, so on the second three days God solves the world’s emptiness problem by giving occupants to each of the three realms he ordered on the previous three days. Thus, having solved the problems of formlessness and emptiness, the task he set for himself, God’s work is complete and he rests on the seventh day.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Real History[/FONT]


The argument is that all of this is real history, it is simply ordered topically rather than chronologically, and the ancient audience of Genesis, it is argued, would have understood it as such.

Even if Genesis 1 records God’s work in a topical fashion, it still records God’s work—things God really did.

The Catechism explains that "Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine ‘work,’ concluded by the ‘rest’ of the seventh day" (CCC 337), but "nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God’s word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history is rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun" (CCC 338).

It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Adam and Eve: Real People[/FONT]


It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: "When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own" (Humani Generis 37).

The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" (CCC 390).

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Science and Religion[/FONT]


The Catholic Church has always taught that "no real disagreement can exist between the theologian and the scientist provided each keeps within his own limits. . . . If nevertheless there is a disagreement . . . it should be remembered that the sacred writers, or more truly ‘the Spirit of God who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men such truths (as the inner structure of visible objects) which do not help anyone to salvation’; and that, for this reason, rather than trying to provide a scientific exposition of nature, they sometimes describe and treat these matters either in a somewhat figurative language or as the common manner of speech those times required, and indeed still requires nowadays in everyday life, even amongst most learned people" (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus 18).

As the Catechism puts it, "Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are" (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, geneva, sans-serif]Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004[/FONT]​
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Adam, Eve, and Evolution | Catholic Answers
 
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Rhamiel

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I would not accept such a thing as fact

maybe Adam and Eve might have been "pre-homosapien" humans who had souls and broke the friendship between God and mankind...

I used to believe in Theistic Evolution, but now I lean more towards Creationism, not a STRONG Creationist, but it is where I lean
 
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Gnarwhal

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Of the concepts that I've heard, the one that makes the most sense in terms of reconciling faith and science is that God called two individuals out of a larger population and breathed his pneuma (ruach) into them, which set them apart. Thus leading to the Adam and Eve narrative.
 
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Sayre

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I accept that A&E might not have been two humans. It does seem to be fact that the initial human population was far bigger than just two individuals.

But then I wonder why the RCC wants a literal character within an allegorical story? If they are forcing A&E to be literal characters - does that make Cain and Able also literal? Noah? etc etc. That entire genealogy is a theological construct - not a reality.
 
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AmericanChristian91

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I would not accept it

That is not really answering my question.

I am aware in reality, you do not accept that there is no Adam and Eve, and that's fine, but that's not the point of my question. I am asking how you would react (with your faith) if something you don't believe (no historical adam and eve) in was proven a fact without a shadow of a doubt in a "what if"/hypothetical/fictional scenario in which even the Church agreed with the evidence.
 
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Rhamiel

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That is not really answering my question.

I am aware in reality, you do not accept that there is no Adam and Eve, and that's fine, but that's not the point of my question. I am asking how you would react (with your faith) if something you don't believe (no historical adam and eve) in was proven a fact without a shadow of a doubt in a "what if"/hypothetical/fictional scenario in which even the Church agreed with the evidence.

I would employ the Double Think as described in 1984 written by George Orwell, I would look at the facts, file them away in a compartment of my brain, and then, through a conscience act of will, forget them.

So even if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would still deny it

but for this particular issue, I think it is suspect, trying to "prove" anything about the past is so... subjective ...

but yes, I trust in God more then I trust in my own reason
 
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Michie

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I would employ the Double Think as described in 1984 written by George Orwell, I would look at the facts, file them away in a compartment of my brain, and then, through a conscience act of will, forget them.

So even if it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would still deny it

but for this particular issue, I think it is suspect, trying to "prove" anything about the past is so... subjective ...

but yes, I trust in God more then I trust in my own reason
That's faith for you. :thumbsup:
 
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ebia

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Sayre said:
I accept that A&E might not have been two humans. It does seem to be fact that the initial human population was far bigger than just two individuals. But then I wonder why the RCC wants a literal character within an allegorical story? If they are forcing A&E to be literal characters - does that make Cain and Able also literal? Noah? etc etc. That entire genealogy is a theological construct - not a reality.
If you read Joseph Ratzinger, the "special creation" of man subsists in the moment when someone first conceived the concept "god".

He seems to be far from taking Pius XII's analysis as as definitive and concrete as (largely American) websites seem to.
 
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Michie

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Difficulties with Adam and Eve

One of the interesting things about conducing a parish mission is how many people stay behind to ask really probing questions. Last evening here in Indianapolis a man named Frank asked me if it was wrong not to believe certain things the church teaches. He’s a scientist and he said he simply can’t accept the story of Adam and Eve. He asked if it was true that the church expects us to believe in a historical Adam and Eve.

So I explained the difference between a doubt and a difficulty. A difficulty is when you are confronted with something seemingly incredible or impossible and you say, “How can that be?” You retain curiosity and open and enquiring mind. That’s OK. A doubt is when you are confronted with the incredible or impossible and you say, “That can’t be.” At that point you’ve closed your mind and cut off enquiry and possible solutions to the problem. Difficulties with the faith are not only permissible, they are to be encouraged because it is through facing the difficulties that we think through our faith and discover solutions. The mindset of “How can that be?” is full of wonder and trust and most of all–open mindedness. Doubt is negative, self righteous and closes down.

So what are we to do with the story of Adam and Eve? I asked Frank what he didn’t believe about Adam and Eve. It turned out that he was a former Baptist and what he didn’t believe was the picture book Bible story fundamentalist version of the second chapter of Genesis. He didn’t believe in a handsome naked man standing behind a waist high bush and a beautiful naked woman with long hair discreetly covering her bosom as she talked with a snake about an apple. He didn’t believe there were only two people in the world who lived in a garden somewhere around Iraq about six thousand years ago.

Good, because you don’t have to believe all that about Adam and Eve to be a good Catholic. All you have to believe is that there was, somewhere at some point in time a man and a woman who were our first parents and that they made a monumental choice to disobey God. I reminded him that the stories in Genesis are ancient Hebrew creation myths. They are symbolic stories that incarnate the truth. They are not necessarily factual reports of exactly what happened. However, it is not true that the stories are intended to be merely myth–that is a fairy tale that didn’t happen at all.

So when and where did they live? The answer is, we don’t know. The stories in the first twelve chapters of Genesis are lost in the mists of what we call “pre-history”. It is only with Father Abraham that we can begin to piece together historical places and people. What can we say about Adam and Eve? First of all, we can conclude that they were not the only people or humanoids on earth at the time because their son Cain went out and found a wife.

My own theory is that there were other human-type creatures on earth, but that Adam and Eve were the first specially created humans with souls, with free will and perhaps the first with language. They were the first to have a relationship with God, and therefore the first parents of all who believe. Did they live in a garden? Were they naked? Did they talk to a snake? Did they eat an apple? Was there a tree of the knowledge of good and evil? I’m not saying there wasn’t, but it is possible to believe that most of these elements of the story are symbolic, but that the essential story is that a specially created man and woman lived on the earth in a state of child-like innocence and bliss–that they had a unique relationship with God which they spoiled by disobedience. The rest of the details can remain open ended. You may believe it all literally, but you needn’t.

Why does it matter? It matters because our faith is historical. From the beginning of the book of Genesis, through the genealogies of the Jews we are reminded that the characters from pre-history are linked with the characters we know are historical. The Jewish writers are intent to show that God’s interaction with humanity is historical and real and not mythological in the fairy tale sense. Consequently, we affirm that Adam and Eve were historical figures–how and when they lived and the details of their fall from grace are open to speculation based on the Biblical account.
Difficulties with Adam and Eve
 
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StevenMerten

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I know that many Catholics accept evolution, though I know the belief that Mankind came from two people is also accepted by Catholics.

I also know, that other people say that the population that existed in the days of the earliest humans (referring to homo-sapiens, not the other groups) was larger then just two individuals.

So lets say hypothetically speaking these people are right. The Church is wrong in this matter, that there is no historical adam and eve that gave rise to all of Mankind (at least in the days of homo sapiens, perhaps some could say adam and eve were in fact in even earlier days).

How would this affect your faith? Especially the concept of "Original Sin" (could a variant of it still exist even if sin did not come from just two people?)

Hello American Christian,

Have you ever heard of Mitochondrial Eve? Science, as well as the Church, believe that all mankind descended from one woman.

Mitochondrial Eve​

In the field of human genetics, the name Mitochondrial Eve refers to the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all currently living anatomically modern humans, who is estimated to have lived approximately 100,000–200,000 years ago. This is the most recent woman from whom all living humans today descend, on their mother’s side, and through the mothers of those mothers, and so on, back until all lines converge on one person. Because all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) generally (but see paternal mtDNA transmission) is passed from mother to offspring without recombination, all mtDNA in every living person is directly descended from hers by definition, differing only by the mutations that over generations have occurred in the germ cell mtDNA since the conception of the original "Mitochondrial Eve".

Mitochondrial Eve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Sayre

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If you read Joseph Ratzinger, the "special creation" of man subsists in the moment when someone first conceived the concept "god".

He seems to be far from taking Pius XII's analysis as as definitive and concrete as (largely American) websites seem to.

WOW!

I'd like to read more of this kinda stuff - unfortunately I'm not that well read in the more liberal / less literal readings of Genesis.
 
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Sayre

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