If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

[Neogaia777]

I wonder at what point did Jesus the man, as a man, realize (or did he always know, or did he have to come to that knowledge at some point). Anyway, I wonder at what point did Jesus the man, as a man, come to know, or realize, that he was YHWH...?

And that YHWH was "his past", and that YHWH was God the Son and not the (true) Father, and literally "was him" (Jesus)... or did he "always know" as a man, or not...? Or did he (Jesus) have to "come to that knowledge" at some point...?

And if he did have to come to that knowledge as a man, how could he have been so very sure...?

Did he have to, or did it, "start" with some kind or increasing progressive revelatory knowledge about "things" first or what...?

If it did, how could he have been so very sure...?

Did it happen right before or right after his baptism...? Or did the Father himself tell him he was, or reveal it/that/this to him, at some point...? or what...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I wonder at what point did Jesus the man, as a man, realize (or did he always know, or did he have to come to that knowledge at some point). Anyway, I wonder at what point did Jesus the man, as a man, come to know, or realize, that he was YHWH...?

And that YHWH was "his past", and that YHWH was God the Son and not the (true) Father, and literally "was him" (Jesus)... or did he "always know" as a man, or not...? Or did he (Jesus) have to "come to that knowledge" at some point...?

And if he did have to come to that knowledge as a man, how could he have been so very sure...?

Did he have to, or did it, "start" with some kind or increasing progressive revelatory knowledge about "things" first or what...?

If it did, how could he have been so very sure...?

Did it happen right before or right after his baptism...? Or did the Father himself tell him he was, or reveal it/that/this to him, at some point...? or what...?

God Bless!

"Know Thyself"

"Being the One is just like being in Love... No one can tell you your in Love, you just know it, balls to bones"...

How did he know, or come to know (it)...? Or how was he, or how could he be, so very sure, or that so completely absolutely sure about that (being God basically)...? For sure or for certain...? About it...?

What (fully) convinced him that he was "God" basically...? (if it did take something to convince him of that, that is)...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I wonder at what point did Jesus the man, as a man, realize (or did he always know, or did he have to come to that knowledge at some point). Anyway, I wonder at what point did Jesus the man, as a man, come to know, or realize, that he was YHWH...?

And that YHWH was "his past", and that YHWH was God the Son and not the (true) Father, and literally "was him" (Jesus)... or did he "always know" as a man, or not...? Or did he (Jesus) have to "come to that knowledge" at some point...?

And if he did have to come to that knowledge as a man, how could he have been so very sure...?

Did he have to, or did it, "start" with some kind or increasing progressive revelatory knowledge about "things" first or what...?

If it did, how could he have been so very sure...?

Did it happen right before or right after his baptism...? Or did the Father himself tell him he was, or reveal it/that/this to him, at some point...? or what...?

God Bless!

"Know Thyself"

"Being the One is just like being in Love... No one can tell you your in Love, you just know it, balls to bones"...

How did he know, or come to know (it)...? Or how was he, or how could he be, so very sure, or that so completely absolutely sure about that (being God basically)...? For sure or for certain...? About it...?

What (fully) convinced him that he was "God" basically...? (if it did take something to convince him of that, that is)...?

God Bless!

Did his Mom and Dad tell him the story about his birth, (the wise men from the east, the star, the shepherds, Herod, ect)... Did his parents tell him about him being the chosen one, or the Messiah (He/him that was God) (basically)...?

And did Jesus then wonder, or then start wondering about these things during his life, and throughout the course of his life, and maybe was trying to discover the truth of it, or was seeking it out...? Like when he was 12 years old and was talking to and with the Pharisees, for example...?

Or was wondering and seeking out the truth of it/him over the course of his life leading up to his baptism, or something...?

When or how did he know "for sure"...?

When did he realize he was YHWH...? But also/and/but that the Father God (The true God) was greater than him...?

God Bless!

 

[roman2819]

If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….


"We, who are first to hope in Christ" = Jews. Writing to the Gentiles, Paul used the word "We". As he referred to Gentiles, he said "you", Note that the apostle used the word "you who are Gentiles". '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles"; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.

 

[redleghunter]

John 15:

16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 17This is My command to you: Love one another.

 

[zoidar]

Deleted

 

[zoidar]

Deleted

 

[redleghunter]

Deleted

Of course they said yes as most of them said yes with their feet. Jesus said follow me and they did.

 

[FineLinen]

If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

My friend the scope of the Father goes far beyond saving all! His Plan in His blessed Son is nothing short of reconcile. The same mass "made sinners" is the mass "made righteous", every last one. All we little wills are destined to meet the Will of all wills. One of those wills yields: rest assured it is not the Creator of the ta panta!

Colossians 1 - MSG Bible - Bible Study Tools

Reconcile=

To restore to friendship or harmony.

 

[roman2819]

John 15:

16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 17This is My command to you: Love one another.

We have to interpret in context. In this situation, Jesus was speaking to the 12 disciples. He chose them to follow him as part of his 3 years ministry on earth. It is not sufficient to use this verses to imply that He chose who to redeem

 

[redleghunter]

We have to interpret in context. In this situation, Jesus was speaking to the 12 disciples. He chose them to follow him as part of his 3 years ministry on earth. It is not sufficient to use this verses to imply that He chose who to redeem

Then Christ only laid His life down for the 12...yet one was a devil.

Doesn’t jive.

 

[redleghunter]

We have to interpret in context. In this situation, Jesus was speaking to the 12 disciples.

The context says:

Seems Jesus speaks of other sheep as well:

4I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[roman2819]

Then Christ only laid His life down for the 12...yet one was a devil.

Doesn’t jive.

almost all Christians think that Judas betray Jesus because he was a disciple, or Jesus chose him to be a betrayer.

Try asking this: If Judas was NOT a disciple, does it mean he would not betray Jesus?

Food for thought. I will elaborate later.

 

[redleghunter]

almost all Christians think that Judas betray Jesus because he was a disciple, or Jesus chose him to be a betrayer.

Try asking this: If Judas was NOT a disciple, does it mean he would not betray Jesus?

Food for thought. I will elaborate later.

Judas betrayed our Lord to fulfill the Scriptures:

John 17:

11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[zoidar]

Then Christ only laid His life down for the 12...yet one was a devil.

Doesn’t jive.

Not saying that roman2819 is right, but from your reasoning then Jesus only died for Paul.

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal 2:20)

 

[redleghunter]

Not saying that roman2819 is right, but from your reasoning then Jesus only died for Paul.

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal 2:20)

Go up a few posts. I was not making the case Christ was only speaking of the 12.

 

[zoidar]

Go up a few posts. I was not making the case Christ was only speaking of the 12.

I meant Jesus could be talking about the twelve. That wouldn't mean he only dies for the twelve, just like Paul says Jesus died for him, and yet Jesus died for all men.

 

[redleghunter]

I meant Jesus could be talking about the twelve. That wouldn't mean he only dies for the twelve, just like Paul says Jesus died for him, and yet Jesus died for all men.

Yes context and what is being taught must be considered.

 

[Pneuma3]

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals. In biblical context, predestination means that: Even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would predestine or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles, in order to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

This is explained in 70 verses in Ephesians 1,2,3. I will just highlight the key words:

Chpter 1:11: In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….

Chptr 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” … you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, … 13 But now in Christ Jesus you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … .18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit…

Chapter 3 … [6] This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus ….


"We, who are first to hope in Christ" = Jews. Writing to the Gentiles, Paul used the word "We". As he referred to Gentiles, he said "you", Note that the apostle used the word "you who are Gentiles". '"BOTH people" and "BOTH Jews and Gentiles"; at no time did he ever refer to individual predestination.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

We will see that Paul went to great length to say that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and Holy Spirit from God. If one do not appreciate context, then Paul appeared to be saying something we already know. But his intent was really to emphasize that the Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews, hence he elaborated on the richness of their inheritance.

Indeed, there is a great difference between reading words and appreciating the significance of the words in context. Those who does not know context misinterpret all over the place, zooming in on words and create endless theories.

amen. the few are but the promise of the whole.

 

[redleghunter]

Predestination in the bible does not mean God choose individuals.

Romans 9: NASB
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

There goes that theory.