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If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?
- Thread starter Neogaia777
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I am "elevating him" (Christ) sort of... But also must give the proper place to the Father as well (also)... And, I know it is the truth, but it also feels like a "betrayal" also...
But, it is beyond my control and out of my (own) hands now...
Pray for me please...
God Bless!
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Of course the flesh can resist God, it is the Spirit that gives life to our spirits, but our bodies are dead because of sin. And until being born again so are our spirits dead.
Now Paul is a very good example, until Christ reveals Himself in dramatic fashion, Paul was persecuting the church and kicking against the goads, so then resisting, but God is able to overcome our flesh or no one would be saved. It was on that Damascus road that Paul is saying that here, this is Paul's born again of God experience at the revelation to Him personally of Christ. At this point for Paul there was no more resistance possible, Paul was overcome as a new creation in Christ, and that also was not Paul's will, but it was God's will for Paul. At some point everyone who will be saved, God creates in them a new spirit and a new heart, one that can believe in Christ, prior to this they can not believe, can not know Christ, are resistant, will not receive Him as Lord, until Christ wills it to be so. At some point it pleases God to make us born again, and at that time God reveals Christ in you.
15 But when it pleased God (which had separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace.)
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I should preach him among the Gentiles immediately, I communicated not with flesh and blood:
'Separated from his mother womb', I take to mean Paul had this calling on him even at his birth, but it was not the ripe time until God was pleased to fulfil His calling in Paul's life. We are all who will be saved, foreknown to God, so then all who are born of God have been from their birth, separated from their mothers womb for the calling God has for them, as was Paul. It even goes farther back than that, our being chosen in Him before we were born, read Ephesians 1.
Galatians 1:10-20 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
10 For now preach I man’s doctrine, or God’s? or go I about to please men? for if I should yet please men, I were not the servant of Christ.
11 Now I certify you, brethren, that the Gospel which was preached of me, was not after man.
12 For neither received I it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past, in the Jewish religion, how that I persecuted the Church of God extremely, and wasted it,
14 And profited in the Jewish religion above many of my companions of mine own nation, and was much more zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God (which had separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace.)
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I should preach him among the Gentiles immediately, I communicated not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither came I again to Jerusalem to them which were Apostles before me, but I went into Arabia, and turned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I came again to Jerusalem, to visit Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 And none other of the Apostles saw I, save James the Lord’s brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, I witness before God, that I lie not.
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If you elevate the Son you are elevating the Father. If you elevate the Father you elevate the Son. It's one God. There is no competition between the persons in the trinity.
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I think Pauls conversion was pretty unique. Most of us will not meet Jesus the way Paul did. I agree that God chose to show himself to Paul, it wasn't Pauls doing. But Paul could have turned his back to God when it came to serving the Lord, like the OT Saul did. Paul chose to do what God commanded him to do.
I'm convinced everone can resist the Spirit, even born again Christians. Think of Peter who tried to get Jesus off his mission to save the world. He was going against the Holy Spirit in his heart. Jesus had to rebuke him. I believe the Holy Spirit in Peter said: "Don't say this", but Peter resisted the voice of the Spirit. So we also can resist the Spirit's calling in our heart, if we choose the easy path instead of following the Spirit.
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It is impossible to resist the Holy Spirit's will as eventuality, God's will for one of His elect is done as God wishes.
For example Peter, it was impossible for Peter to have been permanently turned away from the Lord since Christ intercedes for Peter, it is the same today as Christ is our intercessor. You cannot compare by dredging up King Saul in the OC to the NC, as the NC has much better promises! We have Christ and the Holy Spirit as our intercessor who intercedes FOR the SAINTS. Saints are simply God's elect whom He chose. Anyone who permanently falls away without repenting is not one of the elect, and also it is God who grants repentance and faith.
Luke 22:31-33 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
31 And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”
33 But he said to Him, “Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death.”
***************AND****************
Romans 8
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beagainst us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who ishe who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
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AND some more about resisting the Holy Spirit, showing that it is eventually impossible. Resistance is futile, as God's purposes can not be prevented from occuring, events will transpire as God commands them to occur. In the end, God gets His way. A person may resist God for a time, but they will be overcome.
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
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And an example from the OT where God commands a lying spirit to be put in the mouth of false prophets and also guarantees 100% the lies will be successful and prevail. If God so wills it, then nothing can prevent what will happen from happening as it is God who is at work. And even today God is at work in His saints to do His will.
1 Kings 22:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
and in the NT, this. YES you should take pause and consider with fear and trembling the awesome power of God at work in your life to do whatsoever He wills for you, so consider the paths of your feet! Can a man touch fire and not be burned? So lay off from whatever is displeasing to God, rend your hearts and not your garments (as in just for showing off to others, do not be a hypocrite).
Philippians 2:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
1 Kings 22:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
and in the NT, this. YES you should take pause and consider with fear and trembling the awesome power of God at work in your life to do whatsoever He wills for you, so consider the paths of your feet! Can a man touch fire and not be burned? So lay off from whatever is displeasing to God, rend your hearts and not your garments (as in just for showing off to others, do not be a hypocrite).
Philippians 2:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
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There is a big difference in God commanding directly something to happen than when the Spirit works in us. As a believer you can resist, quench, hurt, deny, blaspheme the Holy Spirit. But if God commands fire over Sodom, who can undo such a command? If God decides someone to be healed he will be healed, unless God changes his mind about the healing, which can happen if the person turns to sin. So even God has full power our response to God is very important.
Jona preached repentance to Nineveh, and they responded and were saved, but later on they turned away from God again and God wasn't forcing them to continue to live righteously. But the Holy Spirit always wants our repentance, our turning from sin, to fill us with strength and to overcome through the love of Christ. God loves all men and wants goodness and holy life out of all men. He does his work in us through his loving Holy Spirit.
If a believer doesn't respect the Holy Spirit or worse tries to lie to the Holy Spirit, God won't take it lightly. The reason God was dealing with Ananias so harshly, was because Ananias knew by the Holy Spirit that he was lying to God, but he did it anyway. As believers we have a bigger responsibility to God.
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
/Acts 5
"Were Ananias and Sapphira saved? We believe they probably were. Their story is told in the context of the actions of “all the believers” (Acts 4:32). They knew of the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3), and Ananias’s lie could have been an earlier promise that he would give the whole amount of the sale to the Lord. But the best evidence that they were children of God may be that they received discipline: “If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all” (Hebrews 12:8; see also 1 Corinthians 5:12). Ananias and his wife had conspired to garner the accolades of the church; but their conspiracy led to the sin unto death."
Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying?
Jona preached repentance to Nineveh, and they responded and were saved, but later on they turned away from God again and God wasn't forcing them to continue to live righteously. But the Holy Spirit always wants our repentance, our turning from sin, to fill us with strength and to overcome through the love of Christ. God loves all men and wants goodness and holy life out of all men. He does his work in us through his loving Holy Spirit.
If a believer doesn't respect the Holy Spirit or worse tries to lie to the Holy Spirit, God won't take it lightly. The reason God was dealing with Ananias so harshly, was because Ananias knew by the Holy Spirit that he was lying to God, but he did it anyway. As believers we have a bigger responsibility to God.
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
/Acts 5
"Were Ananias and Sapphira saved? We believe they probably were. Their story is told in the context of the actions of “all the believers” (Acts 4:32). They knew of the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3), and Ananias’s lie could have been an earlier promise that he would give the whole amount of the sale to the Lord. But the best evidence that they were children of God may be that they received discipline: “If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all” (Hebrews 12:8; see also 1 Corinthians 5:12). Ananias and his wife had conspired to garner the accolades of the church; but their conspiracy led to the sin unto death."
Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying?
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Yes, but there is a difference, (or was a difference) and if you are not telling the truth about that difference, you are not telling the truth and are deceived... And speak lies...
God Bless!
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There are differences, but which are they? The bible says God is spirit, I think that is the Father the bible is refering to. Jesus has a human body.
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Well, those differences don't exist now, not after God the Son was crucified and was resurrected...
But, they "use to be" full omniscience, and also evil or the knowledge of evil, not being a part of God the Son, in the past...
Those are, or were, the main differences...
God Bless!
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I think that Jesus still has his human glorified body. And the Father is spirit.
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Yes he is the image (and any image) (any manifestation/representation) of the invisible God (the Father)...
God Bless!
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Actually, the lie was not 100% effective.
Jehosophat from the beginning wanted to seek the word of the Lord. Ahab did not--Ahab explicitly did not want to hear what the Lord might have to say about his plans.
So the Lord made sure Ahab got what he wanted--the Lord sent a lie to Ahab, even from the lips of the Lord's own prophet.
But remember that Jehosophat still wanted to know the word of the Lord, so when he asked the prophet, "Is that true?" the prophet gave Jehosophat the truth. So that lie was not effective against the person who honestly sought the truth.
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YHWH is Christ, Christ is God in the OT, and I think that may be the part you all are missing...
The Father has never, ever made an appearance to us, ever... Has never, ever interacted with us at all, ever also... But, only the Son has... And the Son is only and all we know, or ever knew of, or can ever even possibly know of, "God" ever...
In the OT, NT, "whatever"... We only know of the Son... And we can only know or see (what the Father is, or is like) through him, (Christ/YHWH, or the Son)... The one and only God we know of, or have ever been exposed to EVER... We have never ever heard from, nor seen the Father ever, but only the Son...
You might want to look at this thread and what I posted to someone there and our discussion maybe...?
If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?
It might help me if you guys can tell me shortly and simply the part(s) of this your not getting...?
God Bless!
And the Son was not always equal to the Father either...
But the Father's feelings (on things) and nature is (only) expressed through the Son...
Again, the only God we have ever known and perhaps, "perhaps", can know (of)... IDK...?
The Father is, and always was, and always will be, outside time and space... The only one who was "always" "truly omniscient"... And (the only one) who has "always had" a "full abounding, above and beyond knowledge", of both good and evil and "all things", from the very beginning... And has no beginning or end, cause those terms do not apply to him...
And the Son is the "beginning and end of all things" continually and forever, for those terms do apply to him (and us)... And is in time with us... And again, "was not always equal" to the Father... But may be now, IDK...?
The Father has always been with the Son, but not us... except only through the Son only, and only if the Son chooses to reveal him (the Father) to you/me/us...
God Bless!
The Father has never, ever made an appearance to us, ever... Has never, ever interacted with us at all, ever also... But, only the Son has... And the Son is only and all we know, or ever knew of, or can ever even possibly know of, "God" ever...
In the OT, NT, "whatever"... We only know of the Son... And we can only know or see (what the Father is, or is like) through him, (Christ/YHWH, or the Son)... The one and only God we know of, or have ever been exposed to EVER... We have never ever heard from, nor seen the Father ever, but only the Son...
You might want to look at this thread and what I posted to someone there and our discussion maybe...?
If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?
It might help me if you guys can tell me shortly and simply the part(s) of this your not getting...?
God Bless!
And the Son was not always equal to the Father either...
But the Father's feelings (on things) and nature is (only) expressed through the Son...
Again, the only God we have ever known and perhaps, "perhaps", can know (of)... IDK...?
The Father is, and always was, and always will be, outside time and space... The only one who was "always" "truly omniscient"... And (the only one) who has "always had" a "full abounding, above and beyond knowledge", of both good and evil and "all things", from the very beginning... And has no beginning or end, cause those terms do not apply to him...
And the Son is the "beginning and end of all things" continually and forever, for those terms do apply to him (and us)... And is in time with us... And again, "was not always equal" to the Father... But may be now, IDK...?
The Father has always been with the Son, but not us... except only through the Son only, and only if the Son chooses to reveal him (the Father) to you/me/us...
God Bless!
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