If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

[zoidar]

Just because the makers of Matrix might not have been Christian, doesn't mean that there creative thoughts are of no value, just like C.S. Lewis, or J R R Tolkien's are not either...

If anything, "Lord of the Rings" was much "darker" than Matrix was or is...

God Bless!

Sure there may be interesting ideas and thoughts in those films. But should me make theology out of it?

 

[zoidar]

Neogaia have you started this thread to discuss if there is a possibility that everyone will be saved?

 

[Neogaia777]

Sure there may be interesting ideas and thoughts in those films. But should me make theology out of it?

No, primary authority should always be scripture... But, it does sometimes help to kind of "compliment" scripture though (I have found sometimes) (in some cases, with some of them)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Neogaia have you started this thread to discuss if there is a possibility that everyone will be saved?

Kinda, or at least discuss that possibility...?

But also to kind of make a point to all the "everything being all predestined and predetermined" people, that, in that case, why would not all be saved, or have to be saved, and discuss that as well...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Kinda, or at least discuss that possibility...?

But also to kind of make a point to all the "everything being all predestined and predetermined" people, that, in that case, why would not all be saved, or have to be saved, and discuss that as well...?

God Bless!

I think you are right, if everything is predetermined everyone would be saved (or God wouldn't be good). My argument is that God is good and would make sure everyone is saved if everything worked according to predetermination. Now of course I don't see scripture say that everyone will be saved and as you know by now, I don't believe in everything being predetermined either.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think you are right, if everything is predetermined everyone would be saved (or God wouldn't be good). My argument is that God is good and would make sure everyone would be saved if everything worked according to predetermination. Now of course I don't see scripture say that everyone will be saved and as you know by now, I don't believe in everything being predetermined either.

Yes, I know...

But what about individual's lives that seem to be selected individually as being all, or now are, or all (of it) (their lives) all seems to be all now predetermined or predestined by God or that God is now in total control of it...? Does that mean they are then, 100% for sure, saved...? And can't lose it/that "no matter what"...? Or what...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Yes, I know...

But what about individual's lives that seem to be selected individually as being all, or now are, or all (of it) (their lives) all seems to be all now predetermined or predestined by God or that God is now in total control of it...? Does that mean they are then, 100% for sure, saved...? And can't lose it/that "no matter what"...? Or what...?

God Bless!

I don't believe in OSAS. I think the scripture says that we can fall away. Would be great if we couldn't ...

 

[RDKirk]

I think you are right, if everything is predetermined everyone would be saved (or God wouldn't be good). My argument is that God is good and would make sure everyone is saved if everything worked according to predetermination. Now of course I don't see scripture say that everyone will be saved and as you know by now, I don't believe in everything being predetermined either.

I don't think anyone of us can determine what "good" entirely means with respect to God.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't believe in OSAS. I think the scripture says that we can fall away. Would be great if we couldn't ...

Even if that person is no longer responsible for their life or course of their life...? Or really even what they do or do not do anymore...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Even if that person is no longer responsible for their life or course of their life...? Or really even what they do or do not do anymore...?

God Bless!

If no man is responsible, then how can anyone be judged? The Bible says we are responsible. Some people accept the idea that God has preordained everything and still people will be lost. I think those who believe this believe it because they think the bible teaches it, even it's hard to make sense of intellectually. There are of course things in the bible we can't explain yet we believe it, like the trinity.

 

[Neogaia777]

If no man is responsible, then how can anyone be judged? The Bible says we are responsible. Some people accept the idea that God has preordained everything and still people will be lost. I think those who believe this believe it because they think the bible teaches it, even it's hard to make sense of intellectually. There are of course things in the bible we can't explain yet we believe it, like the trinity.

I didn't say all men, or people... Just in ones person's case that maybe believes or thinks, or God has shown them personally, that they really do have, or make any actual choices of their own in their own individual life anymore...?

How, or can, a person like that lose their salvation somehow...? I mean if all their steps, all their choices, are being controlled by God basically, (ordered by the Lord) how can they do anything, anything at all, to lose their salvation...?

I mean, if they are obeying God basically, and walking in that obedience, can they lose their salvation somehow...? Or is there any way to do that, or they can do that (lose out on their salvation somehow)...?

God Bless!

 

[sdowney717]

I see it this way: Those God knew would become Christians, He predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. Those He predestined those he also called to his purpose, the special purpose He has for all Christians, to serve God in different ways, and them He justified and them He also glorified.

The future was fixed unchangeable at the founding of the world. Simply God cannot deny Himself, He is omnipotent to the nth degree, yet we are not puppets, God must remake us, to born again or we will not be learning anything from the Holy Spirit. His Spirit to our spirit, there is a genuine communication ongoing all the time, we are as Paul said renewed day by day in the Spirit (the inward man) though the body (the outward man ) perish.

2 Corinthians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

And here is how Jesus says it about His teaching the Holy Spirit works in us.

John 6
43 Jesus then answered, and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me, draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me:

It is not that everyman hears from God and comes to Christ, obviously not everybody believes. It is that the Father must grant you to come to Christ, then you will be a believer. So of all men that hear Him, cause He is speaking to them spiritually and therefore teaching them, all them that hear, because He granted to them to come to Christ, learn from the Father and come to Christ.
Some have told me God teaches everyone the same and they are just 'better learners' the ones who believe, but that is like humanism and Pelagianism, a Darwinism survival of the fittest learners, and is not at all what Christ teaches.

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not: for Jesus knew from the beginning, which they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time, many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[Neogaia777]

I didn't say all men, or people... Just in ones person's case that maybe believes or thinks, or God has shown them personally, that they really do have, or make any actual choices of their own in their own individual life anymore...?

How, or can, a person like that lose their salvation somehow...? I mean if all their steps, all their choices, are being controlled by God basically, (ordered by the Lord) how can they do anything, anything at all, to lose their salvation...?

I mean, if they are obeying God basically, and walking in that obedience, can they lose their salvation somehow...? Or is there any way to do that, or they can do that (lose out on their salvation somehow)...?

God Bless!

Yes, I speak of myself OK... I find myself right now greatly, greatly identifying with what Paul says and exactly probably how he felt in Romans 7:15-25...

The will in me to do what I am doing right now, in this very moment, is way to strong and powerful for me to control, or contend with, alone... For I feel compelled by a very strong compulsion, that I believe is God's will in me, or for me, that I must obey, but...? it just doesn't "feel right" at all... At all...

Oh miserable man that I am!, who will save me from this (Romans 7:24-25)...

I am exposing truth, that is perhaps best left alone, but, it is beyond my control... And, again, does not exactly "feel right" at all... I both love and hate it...

Pray for me (please)...

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

I didn't say all men, or people... Just in ones person's case that maybe believes or thinks, or God has shown them personally, that they really do have, or make any actual choices of their own in their own individual life anymore...?

How, or can, a person like that lose their salvation somehow...? I mean if all their steps, all their choices, are being controlled by God basically, (ordered by the Lord) how can they do anything, anything at all, to lose their salvation...?

I mean, if they are obeying God basically, and walking in that obedience, can they lose their salvation somehow...? Or is there any way to do that, or they can do that (lose out on their salvation somehow)...?

God Bless!

What do you think?

As long as they walk in obedience they can't lose salvation. But does God control anyone that way?

 

[zoidar]

The future was fixed unchangeable at the founding of the world. Simply God cannot deny Himself, He is omnipotent to the nth degree, yet we are not puppets, God must remake us, to born again or we will not be learning anything from the Holy Spirit. His Spirit to our spirit, there is a genuine communication ongoing all the time, we are as Paul said renewed day by day in the Spirit (the inward man) though the body (the outward man ) perish.

2 Corinthians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

And here is how Jesus says it about His teaching the Holy Spirit works in us.

John 6
43 Jesus then answered, and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father, which hath sent me, draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me:

It is not that everyman hears from God and comes to Christ, obviously not everybody believes. It is that the Father must grant you to come to Christ, then you will be a believer. So of all men that hear Him, cause He is speaking to them spiritually and therefore teaching them, all them that hear, because He granted to them to come to Christ, learn from the Father and come to Christ.
Some have told me God teaches everyone the same and they are just 'better learners' the ones who believe, but that is like humanism and Pelagianism, a Darwinism survival of the fittest learners, and is not at all what Christ teaches.

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not: for Jesus knew from the beginning, which they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time, many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

But what do you do then with verses that say you can resist the Holy Spirit?

 

[Neogaia777]

What do you think?

As long as they walk in obedience they can't lose salvation. But does God control anyone that way?

Is an inner compelling you feel is beyond your control, God's controlling or doing...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Yes, I speak of myself OK... I find myself right now greatly, greatly identifying with what Paul says and exactly probably how he felt in Romans 7:15-25...

The will in me to do what I am doing right now, in this very moment, is way to strong and powerful for me to control, or contend with, alone... For I feel compelled by a very strong compulsion, that I believe is God's will in me, or for me, that I must obey, but...? it just doesn't "feel right" at all... At all...

Oh miserable man that I am!, who will save me from this (Romans 7:24-25)...

I am exposing truth, that is perhaps best left alone, but, it is beyond my control... And, again, does not exactly "feel right" at all... I both love and hate it...

Pray for me (please)...

God Bless!

I don't fully understand what you are going through but of course I will pray for you and I'm sure also other people who read your post will pray for you.

 

[Neogaia777]

But what do you do then with verses that say you can resist the Holy Spirit?

God forbid! I don't want to do that!

Pray for me...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't fully understand what you are going through but of course I will pray for you and I'm sure also other people who read your post will pray for you.

Thank You... I need it right now...

Thanks,

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

It's late here. I'll be back tomorrow.