If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

[sdowney717]

For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. /John 3:16

There you have it. There is a reason John 3:16 is called the little bible.

Concerning calvinsim, you can't offer something that isn't given. You can't offer anyone salvation if Jesus didn't bore their sins. The same way that you can't give your son an empty package and tell him if he opens it it's a car, just because you know he won't open it. The gift has to be given first.

Those of this world have no care and love to worship Christ as God, they remain unbelievers and they die in their sins not forgiven of their sin.

A natural (carnal) man does not receive the things of God because he can not know them, that includes the big important entire salvation experience. Offer it all you want, the carnal mind will not respond positively to the gospel.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
He cant know them because the carnal man is spiritually dead.
He cant know them because he can not please God, he is at WAR with God and aligned spiritually with Satan. He indeed can not be subject to the law of God, which here means Christ, he is a lawless one, meaning disobedient to God's commands, just like the devil.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

The only way out from this lawless carnality and war with God is to be born of God, born again. It is because of God's great love that made us born again that we are then believers and saved, before that we were Satan's followers. The love God has for the world is that the gentile world can be saved, not just the jewish world, the gospel goes out to the entire world, not just the jewish world. the world view of the jews is they are the only people of God, which God is saying that is false.

Ephesians 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[sdowney717]

This council exposed also calvinism.
First is a general statement that gentiles will believe
The evidence was God giving them the Holy Spirit.
More specifically God purified their hearts by faith. You know faith is a gift, it is not of yourself. God deals to each one of those He saves a measure of faith, as stated in Romans 12:3

Then very specifically James says this very calvinist response.

And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

But not all gentiles believed, just some few of them.
And then in the prophets, is quoted this about the gentiles, which is the entire subject of this council

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

So we see the gospel going out to the gentile world, 'the rest of mankind' are the gentile nations.
That they may seek God, but then the restriction is placed by God saying
Even all the gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord.

Paul tells us this calling results in an actual salvation not a potential salvation in Romans 9, those called actually are the ones who know the riches of His glory being vessels of mercy but not the others who remain vessels of wrath (unsaved, uncalled).

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As does Jude teach the calling of God results in some certain called ones being sanctified, saved. If some are called this way, then some are not called since not all are saved. Not all are called.
Jude New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called
1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

1 Corinthians 1:26
[ Glory Only in the Lord ] For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Peter teaches calling is linked to election, and election means to be chosen of God for salvation. You do not make yourself elect, but you can confirm it in your own heart by being more diligent, so that you do not stumble and fall into various sins.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

And you can read here. ONLY those who are called receive eternal life. Only for the called is Jesus their redeemer having their sins forgiven them.
Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


The Jerusalem Council
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

 

[zoidar]

Hebrews 9:15
And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Those who are called to purpose, in other words all men who respond to the gospel.

Romans 8:28

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Wouldn't all have to be saved?

According to the Bible definitely not.

M-Bob

 

[zoidar]

Wouldn't all have to be saved?

According to the Bible definitely not.

M-Bob

No, only those who are born again will inherit the kingdom.

 

[RDKirk]

The first problem being, what exactly do you mean by "free will"?

There are no philosophical and theological problems with compatibilist free will.

Well, not even many secular philosophers are willing to cling to a position of either absolute free will or absolute determinism. It's funny that mainly Christians argue absolute free will even though scripture certainly doesn't say that.

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, not even many secular philosophers are willing to cling to a position of either absolute free will or absolute determinism. It's funny that mainly Christians argue absolute free will even though scripture certainly doesn't say that.

And if you've ever seen all the Matrix movies, it tries to tackle the issues or predestination and free will and does a pretty good job of it too... And not very much is, or turns out to be, in or especially by the end, to be actual free will either...

And it explains "why" pretty well, and does a pretty good job explaining it...

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Well, not even many secular philosophers are willing to cling to a position of either absolute free will or absolute determinism. It's funny that mainly Christians argue absolute free will even though scripture certainly doesn't say that.

This is my view on free will:

"I think it's like our "wheel of free will" is working inside a bigger wheel which is God's will. Only God knows exactly how this goes together.

Free will is one of the things that makes us humans so wonderfully made. I think that is a big part of being created as an image of God."

 

[zoidar]

And if you've ever seen all the Matrix movies, it tries to tackle the issues or predestination and free will and does a pretty good job of it too... And not very much is, or turns out to be, in or especially by the end, to be actual free will either...

And it explains "why" pretty well, and does a pretty good job explaining it...

God Bless!

I don't think Matrix is a very good source to find out if there is free will or not. Matrix is created by pagans, why would they understand free will which is a theological issue?

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't think Matrix is a very good source to find out if there is free will or not. Matrix is created by pagans, why would they understand free will which is a theological issue?

Many humans (even pagans) have pondered this and have wondered about this for a very, very long time, and have debated it, for a very, very long time (to no end)...

And, it can just be sometimes useful to consider, for sometimes they can make some very good points about it...

I find a lot of interesting parallels to many Godly things and concepts in some movies like the Matrix series...

Guessing you've never watched or seen them huh...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't think Matrix is a very good source to find out if there is free will or not. Matrix is created by pagans, why would they understand free will which is a theological issue?

I suppose you think the same thing about the Chronicles of Narnia, or Lord of the Rings to, also, as well...?

God Bless!

 

[sdowney717]

Those who are called to purpose, in other words all men who respond to the gospel.

Romans 8:28

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

I find it hard to believe anyone can read Romans 8 and come away with any other idea than those who are called are those who are being saved and no one else is, anyone else is excluded from the unbroken chain. Not all are foreknown, and not all are called and not all are glorified, but all who are foreknown are all of them predestined, called, justified and glorified without exception whatsoever, this is an unbroken progression. The only POV that matters is the divine perspective when considering eternal salvation.

Just read on a few more verses.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't think Matrix is a very good source to find out if there is free will or not. Matrix is created by pagans, why would they understand free will which is a theological issue?

Pagans invented "free will" three hundred years before Christ.

Scripture does not assert the existence of free will. It had not even been applied to scripture until Augustine found himself debating pagans over whether Christianity is deterministic. Not wanting to admit that scripture sure makes Christianity sound deterministic, Augustine developed a special in-house definition of a limited "free will" to avoid charges of determinism (of course, limited free will isn't actually free will).

But what scripture says very clearly is that God manipulates men and nations to His will, that He hardens hearts and softens hearts. Scripture does use the terms "enabled," "predestined," "elected" and "chosen." Scripture does say men are enslaved to either righteousness and sin, and that those enslaved by sin cannot choose to be righteous. There is a whole lot of determinism explicitly asserted in scripture.

If you look at scripture and squint real hard in just a peculiar way, you can claim to see free will in it.

 

[zoidar]

Many humans (even pagans) have pondered this and have wondered about this for a very, very long time, and have debated it, for a very, very long time (to no end)...

And, it can just be sometimes useful to consider, for sometimes they can make some very good points about it...

I find a lot of interesting parallels to many Godly things and concepts in some movies like the Matrix series...

Guessing you've never watched or seen them huh...?

God Bless!

I've seen Matrix.

 

[zoidar]

I suppose you think the same thing about the Chronicles of Narnia, or Lord of the Rings to, also, as well...?

God Bless!

Narnia was written by C S Lewis. He was a Christian, and J R R Tolkien as well.

 

[zoidar]

Pagans invented "free will" three hundred years before Christ.

Scripture does not assert the existence of free will. It had not even been applied to scripture until Augustine found himself debating pagans over whether Christianity is deterministic. Not wanting to admit that scripture sure makes Christianity sound deterministic, Augustine developed a special in-house definition of a limited "free will" to avoid charges of determinism (of course, limited free will isn't actually free will).

But what scripture says very clearly is that God manipulates men and nations to His will, that He hardens hearts and softens hearts. Scripture does use the terms "enabled," "predestined," "elected" and "chosen." Scripture does say men are enslaved to either righteousness and sin, and that those enslaved by sin cannot choose to be righteous. There is a whole lot of determinism explicitly asserted in scripture.

If you look at scripture and squint real hard in just a peculiar way, you can claim to see free will in it.

Yet the early Christians believed in free will. 100-300 AD.

 

[Neogaia777]

I've seen Matrix.

And, what did you think...?

You didn't see some things in it or to it...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Narnia was written by C S Lewis. He was a Christian, and J R R Tolkien as well.

Just because the makers of Matrix might not have been Christian, doesn't mean that there creative thoughts are of no value, just like C.S. Lewis, or J R R Tolkien's are not either...

If anything, "Lord of the Rings" was much "darker" than Matrix was or is...

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

I find it hard to believe anyone can read Romans 8 and come away with any other idea than those who are called are those who are being saved and no one else is, anyone else is excluded from the unbroken chain. Not all are foreknown, and not all are called and not all are glorified, but all who are foreknown are all of them predestined, called, justified and glorified without exception whatsoever, this is an unbroken progression. The only POV that matters is the divine perspective when considering eternal salvation.

Just read on a few more verses.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I see it this way: Those God knew would become Christians, He predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. Those He predestined those he also called to his purpose, the special purpose He has for all Christians, to serve God in different ways, and them He justified and them He also glorified.

 

[zoidar]

And, what did you think...?

You didn't see some things in it or to it...?

God Bless!

I don't remember that much from it. Just the choose the blue, red pill thing...