If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

[Neogaia777]

You said you know you don't have free will. I didn't ask what you know, I asked what you feel.

Simple fact is "we don't know"... Not most of us (know) (that) anyway... And, since no one is telling us, or is going to tell us, we have no choice but to proceed as if we do (have a) choice (in matters)...

And we can't really do it (that) (life) or go about it (life) any other way... Otherwise we should nothing about anything ever... If we were to know (all) (that) for sure...

I can only say that in my own life (now) God has made it pretty apparent, that "I" individually, personally (now) do not really have much of a free will anymore... And, if I ever really did, I do not know (it) and cannot say (for sure)...

But... is it possible that none of us have or really ever have or make any choices of our own at all...? Yes, it is "possible"... and may even be "very likely" maybe (maybe)... But can we "prove" that or ever be able to know "for sure with 100% certainty"... No, we can't, we won't, and I don't think were meant to (know that for sure) (yet) (not in this life at least)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Simple fact is "we don't know"... Not most of us (know) (that) anyway... And, since no one is telling us, or is going to tell us, we have no choice but to proceed as if we do (have a) choice (in matters)...

And we can't really do it (that) (life) or go about it (life) any other way... Otherwise we should nothing about anything ever... If we were to know (all) (that) for sure...

I can only say that in my own life (now) God has made it pretty apparent, that "I" individually, personally (now) do not really have much of a free will anymore... And, if I ever really did, I do not know (it) and cannot say (for sure)...

But is it possible that none of have or really ever make any choices of our own at all...? Yes, it is possible, and may even be very likely maybe... But can we prove that or ever be able to know for sure with 100% certainty... No, we can't, we won't, and I don't think were meant to (yet) (not in this life at least)...

God Bless!

This thread was supposed to be "if" we don't have "choice", not about whether we do or not, or to debate whether we do or not...

But to consider the possibility that "if" we don't have choice, (and work off the "possibility" that we don't, and not to debate or to try and decide for sure) then would we all have to be saved or not...?

This is not supposed to be yet another debate about choice or free will, whether we have it or not, all that... But, to consider the possibility that "if", "IF WE DO NOT" and work from there, and "debate" FROM THERE...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This thread was supposed to be "if" we don't have "choice", not about whether we do or not, or to debate whether we do or not...

But to consider the possibility that "if" we don't have choice, (and work off the "possibility" that we don't, and not to debate or to try and decide for sure) then would we all have to be saved or not...?

This is not supposed to be yet another debate about choice or free will, whether we have it or not, all that... But, to consider the possibility that "if", "IF WE DO NOT" and work from there, and "debate" FROM THERE...

God Bless!

In other words, "if", "IF" we do not have choice, or free will, then...? Then... "What???"

"What follows" (that)...? And debate "that"... "from there"... What does it mean if we don't...?

And talk about "all that would mean", "all" of it/that, "If" we don't...

So, lets not get sidetracked here, OK...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

When I was into eastern religion a guru told me there is no free will. I was and is very much against that. He said: "It feels like have free will, but in reality we don't". I will go with my feeling and intuition with this.

 

[Neogaia777]

When I was into eastern religion a guru told me there is no free will. I was and is very much against that.

Can you think along the lines of "if" you or we don't... and debate or consider the possibilities "from there", or not...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Can you think along the lines of "if" you or we don't... and debate or consider the possibilities "from there", or not...?

God Bless!

No I won't debate about "if" or "if not". I think that kind of thinking is destructive. It all ends up with God being evil.

 

[Neogaia777]

No I won't debate about "if" or "if not". I think that kind of thinking is destructive. It all ends up with God being the bad guy.

You should have enough faith in God that he is good, and just, and holy, and is righteous, and is not bad, and is right, or "whatever" (he says he is) (love) NO MATTER WHAT... If you do not, then that is a lack of faith on your part...

(sorry, but it's true)...

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

You should have enough faith in God that he is good, and just, and holy, and is righteous, and is not bad, and is right, or "whatever" (he says he is) (love) NO MATTER WHAT... If you do not, then that is a lack of faith on your part...

(sorry, but it's true)...

God Bless!

So if God is sending everyone to hell if I don't see him as love it's because of lack of faith? I love God because of who He is, not because if He might be this or that.

 

[Neogaia777]

So if God is sending everyone to hell if I don't see him as love it's because of lack of faith? I love God because of who He is, not because if He might be this or that.

Don't be ridiculous, you know he's not sending everyone to hell... Geez, another lack of faith... If anything, like the OP suggested he might be sending everyone to heaven...

Only really bad people go to hell, and if he created those that way, or to be that way, it was for a very, very good reason and purpose... dang, where is your faith...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

So if God is sending everyone to hell if I don't see him as love it's because of lack of faith? I love God because of who He is, not because if He might be this or that.

And, the Bible certainly does not teach that "everyone is going to hell" either...

You should know better than that...?

In fact it's probably a minority of people that go to hell...

You know better than that, don't you...?

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Of course God isn't sending everyone to hell. My point is that I believe in God. Not in a made up God. I see the scripture through the character of Jesus.

 

[Neogaia777]

Of course not isn't God sending everyone to hell. My point is that I believe in God. Not in a made up God. I see the scripture through the character of Jesus.

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

God Bless!

God bless you too!

 

[Myychael]

I feel like giving up...

Everyone seems to have very limited views and narrow understanding... They can't seem to even comprehend the basic difference between God the Father, and God the Son... Heck, most don't even think of the Son being YHWH (yet)... Let alone comprehend the Father apart from that...

Maybe it's time for me to submit... Submit my will to the Father's will and just give up on all of "this"... Trying to get people to understand... I feel like none of my points, no matter how well made, are just not getting through to anyone...

But i'm driven, I feel compelled to do this, but, it feels like it's all very futile and in vain...

Cast my care... give it all to God... and give up trying to do it myself... Let the chips fall where they may... Let the world be ignorant, and go like lemmings over a cliff into their destruction... It will break my heart, and it will be very hard to do that, but maybe I should... Maybe I must...

Everyone seems to be going their own way, no matter how wrong that way is, and very, very few seem very willing to change it all, or ever...

Maybe it's time to just "let go and let God"... Realize he is in control and I can do nothing...

God Bless!

When the LORD healed me and sweetly rescued me from the JW i had to really search myself and my testimony is way to long post here but like everyone whom studies i ran into Calvinism i studied it for over a year RC Sproil John Piper and some others in the JWs i was a preacher and avid door knocker so Calvinism if its so why would i share the good news of LORD JESUS well someone has to find and share the Gospel to find the ones predestined even the predestined ones have to hear the Gospel their just not magically going to convert they have to hear to acquire faith to believe im not saying
i believe in Calvinism either There is one scripture though that gives me doubt where it says Hell was created for Satan and his Angels i have read retorts on this also just keep sharing the Gospel to others and let the LORD sort it all out the Holy Spirit will get it
right and GOD Bless you

 

[Kaon]

You said you know you don't have free will. I didn't ask what you know, I asked what you feel.

Right.


Feelings lie, so I don't go by feelings.

 

[sdowney717]

When the LORD healed me and sweetly rescued me from the JW i had to really search myself and my testimony is way to long post here but like everyone whom studies i ran into Calvinism i studied it for over a year RC Sproil John Piper and some others in the JWs i was a preacher and avid door knocker so Calvinism if its so why would i share the good news of LORD JESUS well someone has to find and share the Gospel to find the ones predestined even the predestined ones have to hear the Gospel their just not magically going to convert they have to hear to acquire faith to believe im not saying
i believe in Calvinism either There is one scripture though that gives me doubt where it says Hell was created for Satan and his Angels i have read retorts on this also just keep sharing the Gospel to others and let the LORD sort it all out the Holy Spirit will get it
right and GOD Bless you

Hell was created for the devil and his angels probably because they fell first before the fall of mankind in Eden. The angels truly had freewill, it is only after the fall that our nature is bent towards wickness. As the scripture says, all have sinned. And we dont sin the same sin as Adam and Eve, but still we sin and all who sin are doomed to destruction unless the Lord redeems their souls according to His mercy.

Exodus 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.

Abraham was chosen of God, and God said

Romans 9:6-8 New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

In Isaac your seed shall be called of God...as the children of God's promise, so God is fulfilling His word He made long ago to Abraham, IN US EVEN TODAY.

Galatians 4:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Being Born of God is according to God's Spirit and so then His choice not ours. You did not choose to be born of God. It is He that has made us and not we ourselves...

 

[Myychael]

Hell was created for the devil and his angels probably because they fell first before the fall of mankind in Eden. The angels truly had freewill, it is only after the fall that our nature is bent towards wickness. As the scripture says, all have sinned. And we dont sin the same sin as Adam and Eve, but still we sin and all who sin are doomed to destruction unless the Lord redeems their souls according to His mercy.

Exodus 15:13
You in Your mercy have led forth The people whom You have redeemed; You have guided them in Your strength To Your holy habitation.

Abraham was chosen of God, and God said

Romans 9:6-8 New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

In Isaac your seed shall be called of God...as the children of God's promise, so God is fulfilling His word He made long ago to Abraham, IN US EVEN TODAY.

Galatians 4:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Being Born of God is according to God's Spirit and so then His choice not ours. You did not choose to be born of God. It is He that has made us and not we ourselves...

I have no problem with what you say here in Math it’s at the end GOD haven’t even wiped every tear from the eyes yet yet he is going to separate the Lost and saved and the lost go to be where Satan and his angels or demons are I believe Christ is speaking here this is not OT here it wouldn’t matter if it was OT God knows all things right the future is not a secrete there is nothing new in all the earth.I share the good news with anyone whom will listen to me I don’t want anyone went they face the judgement to look up at me and say why didn’t you tell me about the good news shame on anybody who doesn’t share Christ with people who don’t know him.I was trying to encourage Neogia777 to keep on preaching to keep being a watchman and I enjoy reading his posts not for you brother to give me a Bible lessons on Calvinism if you want to no more on Calvinism RC Sproil who went to be with the LORD last year and John Piper are the best that I have read I guess it’s the Christ in me that compels me
To share the Gospel with the lost your not going to change me and I not you sir the last thing I want to do is sit on the Judgement seat of GOD John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit I have learned that here Sheep have teeth

 

[sdowney717]

I have no problem with what you say here in Math it’s at the end GOD haven’t even wiped every tear from the eyes yet yet he is going to separate the Lost and saved and the lost go to be where Satan and his angels or demons are I believe Christ is speaking here this is not OT here it wouldn’t matter if it was OT God knows all things right the future is not a secrete there is nothing new in all the earth.I share the good news with anyone whom will listen to me I don’t want anyone went they face the judgement to look up at me and say why didn’t you tell me about the good news shame on anybody who doesn’t share Christ with people who don’t know him.I was trying to encourage Neogia777 to keep on preaching to keep being a watchman and I enjoy reading his posts not for you brother to give me a Bible lessons on Calvinism if you want to no more on Calvinism RC Sproil who went to be with the LORD last year and John Piper are the best that I have read I guess it’s the Christ in me that compels me
To share the Gospel with the lost your not going to change me and I not you sir the last thing I want to do is sit on the Judgement seat of GOD John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit I have learned that here Sheep have teeth

Your pointing to John 3:8 proves Calvinism, because it is the Spirit which gives life, according to the will of God to whom He wills. So it is with everyone born of God, the wind blows where it wills, and so does God's Holy Spirit, Jesus is saying you can not control where the wind blows. You must be first born again to the enter the kingdom, and that is His choice. We receive Him as Lord because we were born of God. v13 teaches they were born of God first.

Until you are a spiritual man, you are a carnal man, and carnal man is at enmity with God and is not born of God, if you are born of God then you are in the Spirit and will love Christ and receive Him as Lord. No one in the flesh can please God. Romans 8, you must first be born again.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus says this also, if you were born of God, God being your Father God, then you would love Jesus Christ. Those that do not love Christ are not of the Father, perhaps not yet, perhaps they will be someday born again, so then of the Father at a later time and then they will love Christ and receive Christ as God in the flesh come to save them from their sins. Jesus clearly tells us those not of the Father can not abide to hear or harkon to the words of Christ.
John 8
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

 

[sdowney717]

Our sufficiency is of God, I was thinking of verses that mention the veil is removed in Christ for them that are turned to the Lord. Otherwise the mind of the unbelievers who are persihing is darkened, Christ is hidden from them by the god of this world Satan, lest the light of Christ should shine on them. But God shines His light out from our heart, a light that shines out from within us having formerly darkened hearts.
This version points out in v16 that when they are turned to the Lord, the veil is taken away in Christ.
Otherwise their minds are hardened against the knowledge of Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:5-18 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to think anything, as of ourselves: but our [a]sufficiency is of God,

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament, not of the [c]letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.

7 If then the ministration of death written with letters [d]and engraven in stones, was [e]glorious, so that the children of Israel could not behold the face of Moses, for the glory of his countenance (which glory is gone away.)

8 How shall not the [f]ministration of the Spirit be more glorious?

9 For if the ministry of condemnation was glorious, much more doth the ministration of [g]righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was glorified, was not glorified in this point, that is, as touching the exceeding glory.

11 For if that they should be [h]abolished, was glorious, much more shall that which remaineth be glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such trust, we use great boldness of speech.

13 [j]And we are not as Moses, which put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel should not look unto the [k]end of that which should be abolished.

14 Therefore their minds are hardened: for until this day remaineth the same covering untaken away in the reading of the old Testament, which veil in Christ is put away.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is laid over their hearts.

16 Nevertheless when their heart shall be turned to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

17 Now the [l]Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 [m]But we all behold as in a mirror the glory of the Lord with open face, and are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.

And Paul in 2 Corinthians 4 also describes the salvation as being only for those for whom God has chosen to shine His light out from within them. They are become light in the Lord Jesus.
God commands light to shine out from darkness, and it is the same with us who are saved, we were formerly at enmity with God, but He chose to make us born of God according too His great love for us, so God commands us to be filled with light, read Ephesians 2

2 Corinthians 4
1 Therefore, seeing that we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not:

2 But have cast from us the cloaks of shame, and walk not in craftiness, neither handle we the word of God deceitfully: but in declaration of the truth we approve ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 If the Gospel be then hid, it is hid to them that are lost.

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds, that is, of the infidels, that the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, which is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For God that commanded the light to shine out of darkness, is he which hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of that power might be of God, and not of us.

God does this so no flesh can boast back to God, our sufficiency, our very nature and being is entirely according to the will of God for us.

 

[zoidar]

For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. /John 3:16

There you have it. There is a reason John 3:16 is called the little bible.

Concerning calvinsim, you can't offer something that isn't given. You can't offer anyone salvation if Jesus didn't bore their sins. The same way that you can't give your son an empty package and tell him if he opens it it's a car, just because you know he won't open it. The gift has to be given first.