If absolutely everything is predestined, and there is no choice, then wouldn't all have to be saved?

[Neogaia777]

If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

 

[Radagast]

If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Why?

 

[Neogaia777]

I would like to suggest also, that maybe only from the moment one is "saved" that the Lord then, orders all his steps from there maybe...?

Or the only real true choice is our salvation, either accepting or rejecting, and maybe the Lord predestines all of everyone's steps, but around that choice, only one real true choice, to either accept him or reject him, and that he uses the bad (ones) for, or for the furthering of, the good (ones)...

What do you think...?

For example I don't know if I really have my own choice(s) "now", but wonder if it has always been that way or not...?

Beyond that, I sometimes wonder if I have been chosen for bad or good sometimes as well...?

Or are we all running off of (our supposed choices and choosing) are not all running off of past "programming", so to speak...?

Thoughts...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Why?

It would seem to us to be unjust otherwise, but I don't if that's "right" or not...?

God Bless!

 

[Radagast]

It would seem to us to be unjust otherwise

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is moulded say to its moulder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honourable use and another for dishonourable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24)

 

[Christfan]

Free will is the flesh's desire to be autonomous and free from God. Our sinful flesh finds certain things about God or the stuff he does in the Bible to be evil/unjust (especially in the Old Testament when he didn't mess around). Unfortunately for those who cling to free will so tightly, nowhere in the Bible it states nor alludes to "responsibility presupposes free will".

Free will causes philosophical and theological problems. God making Josepeh's brothers sell him to Egypt, guaranteed prophecies that come to pass regardless of human's choices, etc.. Sadly it has become a golden calf for some people who adopt open theism in an attempt to reconcile these problems, but end up creating much more and worse.

 

[Job3315]

If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

What do you mean with, “then wouldn't all have to be saved?”

 

[Radagast]

Free will causes philosophical and theological problems.

The first problem being, what exactly do you mean by "free will"?

There are no philosophical and theological problems with compatibilist free will.

 

[Neogaia777]

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is moulded say to its moulder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honourable use and another for dishonourable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24)

That's why I said I didn't know if it was right or not... I was just speaking for the majority...

I do know that scripture and had it in mind when I said, I didn't know if it/that was right or not, and is why I said it...

But, how many people are going to be saying this to God, if everything and I mean everything, was preordered, or preordained, or predestined, and most don't know that scripture, (or very much (of) any scripture for that matter)...

And what does that mean...?

What about the ones that had no choice in being wicked and get judged at the judgement and go to hell...?

What are they being judged for (they might say)...?

I'd really like to hear what God says, if that is the case... I know he will justify himself somehow, if that is the case (I'm confident about that)... I just can't figure it out...?

God Bless!

 

[St_Worm2]

If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

God "ordains" all things, but that doesn't mean that He determines all things that occur/forces their outcome. In some cases He does, but I think that most of our choices have been "ordained" in the sense that God approves/permits them to occur long before we do them.

Sinning comes to mind as something that God regularly ordains (in the sense that He permits it to occur), but He does not cause us/force us to sin (in fact, He always gives us a way out of doing so .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Neogaia777]

What do you mean with, “then wouldn't all have to be saved?”

Man's logic, man's reasoning...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

God "ordains" all things, but that doesn't mean that He determines all things that occur/forces their outcome. In some cases He does, but I think that most of our choices have been "ordained" in the sense that God approves/permits them to occur long before we do them.

Sinning comes to mind as something that God regularly ordains (in the sense that He permits it to occur), but He does not cause us/force us to sin (in fact, He always gives us a way out of doing so .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Yours and His,
David

So you say, but, in my own life, (from a certain point at least), (and I don't know when), I don't think I personally make or have much of a choice in much of anything I do anymore...

He (God) has kind of shown me, at least for me, that I really don't now, or anymore...

God Bless!

 

[Job3315]

Man's logic, man's reasoning...

God Bless!

You mean the soul of a person?

 

[Neogaia777]

You mean the soul of a person?

I don't mean any offense, and I'm sorry if this cause offense, but, are you even reading any of the posts...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

So you say, but, in my own life, (from a certain point at least), (and I don't know when), I don't think I personally make or have much of a choice in much of anything I do anymore...

He (God) has kind of shown me, at least for me, that I really don't now, or anymore...

God Bless!

It doesn't bother me though, (being a slave to God's will), cause I feel very much more free (and much more happy) being a slave to God's will than I ever did being a slave to my own (will), if it ever was my own, that is...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

It doesn't bother me though, (being a slave to God's will), cause I feel very much more free (and much more happy) being a slave to God's will than I ever did being a slave to my own (will), if it ever was my own, that is...

God Bless!

Scary free sometimes, actually...

God Bless!

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

If absolutely everything and all is predestined, and there is no choice in anything, then wouldn't all have to be saved...?

Or not...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

The idea of sin and guilt is incompatible with the idea of no free will. Without free will, there cannot be sin or guilt.

 

[Christfan]

The first problem being, what exactly do you mean by "free will"?

There are no philosophical and theological problems with compatibilist free will.

"Compatibilists" are more or less hard determinists that use esoteric definitions. Just drop free will from your vocabulary.

 

[Christfan]

The idea of sin and guilt is incompatible with the idea of no free will. Without free will, there cannot be sin or guilt.

Says who?

 

[Radagast]

"Compatibilists" are more or less hard determinists that use esoteric definitions. Just drop free will from your vocabulary.

I don't think you understand the issues here.

Just because you prefer one particular view of free will, that doesn't mean that other views don't exist.