Idolatry

Daniel Carlton · Wednesday at 3:35 PM

I am currently reading through the first three centuries of church fathers and completed the majority. I will have the rest read before the end of the year, God willing.

And there seems to be a sin that is unanimously condemned by the early Christian writers - idolatry. And they define idolatry exactly how the second commandment describes it: you shall have no graven image, you shall not bow to them. So the making of something and venerating that created object.

Is this not a problem for certain churches who claim to be following apostolic teaching?

NBB · Wednesday at 6:17 PM

People can also worship all kinds of things, like important people, or sports, art, or themselves, or who knows what.

RileyG · Wednesday at 6:23 PM

Daniel Carlton said:
I am currently reading through the first three centuries of church fathers and completed the majority. I will have the rest read before the end of the year, God willing.

And there seems to be a sin that is unanimously condemned by the early Christian writers - idolatry. And they define idolatry exactly how the second commandment describes it: you shall have no graven image, you shall not bow to them. So the making of something and venerating that created object.

Is this not a problem for certain churches who claim to be following apostolic teaching?

Keep reading and researching:

Council of Constantinople (843) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

RileyG · Wednesday at 6:25 PM

Exodus 25:10-22

Notice how the Ark of the Covenant is constructed.

Was that idolatry? No.

ozso · Wednesday at 8:42 PM

RileyG said:
Keep reading and researching:

Council of Constantinople (843) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

He's talking about the first three centuries though.

RileyG · Wednesday at 8:45 PM

ozso said:
He's talking about the first three centuries though.

Ope! My mistake! I see!

ozso · Wednesday at 8:47 PM

RileyG said:
Exodus 25:10-22

Notice how the Ark of the Covenant is constructed.

Was that idolatry? No.

The Ark wasn't a personification though. Nor was it personified.

RileyG · Wednesday at 9:18 PM

ozso said:
The Ark wasn't a personification though. Nor was it personified.

Well? I don’t want to go off topic, but I appreciate your comments.

Peace

ozso · Wednesday at 9:35 PM

RileyG said:
Well? I don’t want to go off topic, but I appreciate your comments.

Peace

Not off topic. The Ark is a great point. I offered a counterpoint. That's my job as CF's contrarian pain in the neck.

ViaCrucis · Wednesday at 9:48 PM

Daniel Carlton said:
Is this not a problem for certain churches who claim to be following apostolic teaching?

No.

See: The Second Council of Nicea.

Iconoclasm is heretical for a reason.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Wednesday at 9:51 PM

ozso said:
The Ark wasn't a personification though. Nor was it personified.

There were literally "graven images" of cherubim upon the Ark which covered the kapporet where the Divine Glory--the Shekinah--dwelt.

So clearly depictions like this were not violations of the 1st Commandment's prescription against worshiping other gods and idolatry.

-CryptoLutheran

RileyG · Wednesday at 10:21 PM

ozso said:
Not off topic. The Ark is a great point. I offered a counterpoint. That's my job as CF's contrarian pain in the neck.

Ok!

RileyG · Wednesday at 10:22 PM

ViaCrucis said:
There were literally "graven images" of cherubim upon the Ark which covered the kapporet where the Divine Glory--the Shekinah--dwelt.

So clearly depictions like this were not violations of the 1st Commandment's prescription against worshiping other gods and idolatry.

-CryptoLutheran

Amen, my brother in Christ!

Statues and icons are NOT idolatry because they aren’t being worshipped.

God alone is worshipped. Period!

NBB · Wednesday at 10:55 PM

Some people have a custom of kneeling before statues, if that is not worship what it is?
Even if they are not worshiping, the bible says to not bow before other than God.

RileyG · Wednesday at 11:02 PM

NBB said:
Some people have a custom of kneeling before statues, if that is not worship what it is?
Even if they are not worshiping, the bible says to not bow before other than God.

It’s an act of respect. Even in the Middle Ages, kneeling or bowing before kings and queens isn’t unheard of. It still happens in countries with a monarchy.

Doesn’t mean the statue or monarch are being “worshipped.”

RileyG · Wednesday at 11:03 PM

NBB said:
Some people have a custom of kneeling before statues, if that is not worship what it is?
Even if they are not worshiping, the bible says to not bow before other than God.

Even King Solomon bowed to Bathsheba, the Queen Mother. He didn’t worship her.

See 1 Kings 2:19

NBB · Wednesday at 11:07 PM

RileyG said:
Even King Solomon bowed to Bathsheba, the Queen Mother. He didn’t worship her.

See 1 Kings 2:19

Ok, but i'm citing the scripture of bowing before idols, not out of respect for an authority or romance.

ViaCrucis · Wednesday at 11:42 PM

NBB said:
Ok, but i'm citing the scripture of bowing before idols, not out of respect for an authority or romance.

Then don't bow before idols. Seems easy enough.

But sacred images aren't idols.

-CryptoLutheran

Daniel Carlton · 2025-08-21T04:12:52-0500

RileyG said:
Keep reading and researching:

Council of Constantinople (843) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

9th century is not early Christianity. By that time all types of false beliefs had crept into some churches.

Daniel Carlton · 2025-08-21T04:14:22-0500

ViaCrucis said:
No.

See: The Second Council of Nicea.

Iconoclasm is heretical for a reason.

-CryptoLutheran

8th century is not early Christianity.

What late councils believed is not my concern as false beliefs had entered some churches and were separated from the truth.

Idolatry

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