Identity

[Resha Caner]

“There are three things extremely hard: steel, a diamond, and to know one’s self.”
– Benjamin Franklin

Yeah, but hard doesn't mean impossible. And if you're wrong, who's gonna know? And if you decide your first attempt was wrong, I'll not fault you for amending it.

 

[quatona]

Yeah, but hard doesn't mean impossible. And if you're wrong, who's gonna know? And if you decide your first attempt was wrong, I'll not fault you for amending it.

...and in the meantime, your "identity" may have moved on.

 

[Resha Caner]

...and in the meantime, your "identity" may have moved on.

Maybe. For me identity doesn't have to be a static thing, and continuing self-reflection is worth it.

 

[quatona]

Maybe. For me identity doesn't have to be a static thing, and continuing self-reflection is worth it.

Yeah, identity as a process rather than a thing makes a lot more sense.
Of course, some questions may not make much sense under this premise.

 

[Locutus]

Neither of the two extremes of 'tabla rasa' and 'What I am is completely of my own making', will bear the weight of knowing that two very different personalities can 'emerge' from very similar formative experiences and environments.

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Incorrect. No two experiences and/of environment are ever the same - THAT'S why we're all different. This goes back to the womb, remember.

 

[Locutus]

Ah, OK. I see moral responsibility as a different (though not unrelated) problem, more to do with the finer points of freewill & determinism/indeterminism; a subject for a different thread, perhaps.

It's not about morality actually, it's about empowerment.

I've known parents who swore their kids were simply 'not smart enough' to do well at school. They chose to believe that intelligence was innate, not made, thus absolving themselves of responsibility. Same kids, with good tuition and focused attention, went to the top. Same applies to ourselves. If we put down our foibles to innate character, we give ourselves permission to be powerless.

 

[Resha Caner]

Of course, some questions may not make much sense under this premise.

Yeah, sometimes people assume restrictions the OP did not impose. It happens. I've learned to go with it.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It's not about morality actually, it's about empowerment.

I've known parents who swore their kids were simply 'not smart enough' to do well at school. They chose to believe that intelligence was innate, not made, thus absolving themselves of responsibility. Same kids, with good tuition and focused attention, went to the top. Same applies to ourselves. If we put down our foibles to innate character, we give ourselves permission to be powerless.

OK, now I see what you're saying. That kind of attitude sounds like a sort of fatalism, but whether the motive is laziness or abrogation of responsibility, it clearly helps no-one

Maybe those parents were born like that (just kidding!)

 

[Resha Caner]

I've known parents who swore their kids were simply 'not smart enough' to do well at school. They chose to believe that intelligence was innate, not made, thus absolving themselves of responsibility. Same kids, with good tuition and focused attention, went to the top. Same applies to ourselves. If we put down our foibles to innate character, we give ourselves permission to be powerless.

Maybe some parents use that as a way to escape responsibility. But I've been on the other side, where the flip-side argument is used to escape responsibility - the teacher who says, "Kids can do anything if they want to. So, the reason your kid appears to be struggling is that he's not trying hard enough." Therefore, not the teacher's fault, right?

Funny thing is, a different teacher from the same school said, "I've never seen anyone try harder than your kid. It takes him longer than the other kids, but he works so hard that he can get it done if you're patient with him."

Hmm.

The latter strategy seems to have worked the best as he moved through school - to acknowledge that he's different than the average kid and to teach him how to use those differences when it's to his advantage and how to work through the differences when they're to his disadvantage.

I'm absolutely convinced my 2 kids came with pre-programmed differences that had nothing to do with any "nurturing". They've been impacted by their environment to be sure, but they were not blank slates. It would be stupid to try to write on an iPAD with a piece of chalk because of an assumption that all slates start the same.

My favorite bit of parenting advice is Dobson's statement that "Yes, parents are important. Just remember you're not that important."

 

[Locutus]

Maybe some parents use that as a way to escape responsibility. But I've been on the other side, where the flip-side argument is used to escape responsibility - the teacher who says, "Kids can do anything if they want to. So, the reason your kid appears to be struggling is that he's not trying hard enough." Therefore, not the teacher's fault, right?

Funny thing is, a different teacher from the same school said, "I've never seen anyone try harder than your kid. It takes him longer than the other kids, but he works so hard that he can get it done if you're patient with him."

Hmm.

The latter strategy seems to have worked the best as he moved through school - to acknowledge that he's different than the average kid and to teach him how to use those differences when it's to his advantage and how to work through the differences when they're to his disadvantage.

I'm absolutely convinced my 2 kids came with pre-programmed differences that had nothing to do with any "nurturing". They've been impacted by their environment to be sure, but they were not blank slates. It would be stupid to try to write on an iPAD with a piece of chalk because of an assumption that all slates start the same.

My favorite bit of parenting advice is Dobson's statement that "Yes, parents are important. Just remember you're not that important."

a blank slate doesn't mean we 'start the same' (at birth). by then we're already shaped by our experiences in utero.

and I dispute that parents are 'not that important'. even if it had a grain of truth to it, to embrace the idea would be irresponsible.

 

[SloriB]

I don't know you well enough to make any assertions, so it's just a suggestion for you to consider. I idolized my dad when I was young. I still do, but I think I'm a more balanced person now. In my youth I nearly copied his every step. I thought my mom had zero impact on me. Then, as I got older, I started to realize all the subtle ways I was like my mom. The older I get the more I realize her influence on me was equally large.

The point is, there can be influences on your life that you are unaware of, and sometimes it takes an outside nudge to get you thinking about them. I'm just trying to give that little nudge. If, in the end, you disagree with me, then it is what it is. You are the expert on you - not me.



But think about this comment. Why is taking your place in the adult world linked to a profession? Not all cultures make that link. It's even a relatively recent one in Western society.



Yeah, notice how many of those are connected to something material? Food, sports, money, etc.

Too often people get hooked on the abstract side of ritual and start to think, "Only Americans value freedom." Huh? Not at all true. But grilling hamburgers on the 4th of July ... I GUARANTEE you nothing in the world tastes like corn-fed beef grilled over mesquite coals. Globalization has (sadly) done a good job of pushing uniculture, but that taste originated here. And the unique association of hearing the Franklin/Jefferson narrative along with that physical experience is (for me) what makes culture. Meaning was learned through a contextual combination of words and things - not from an abstract lesson in school.

Other cultures can teach the same abstract lesson through different combinations of words and things, but the way I learned it becomes valuable to me. And it becomes a way I can teach that same lesson to my kids with passion. Trying to teach it using a different culture is largely a fake.

Well, I have many other rituals that aren't connected to material things. I'm as unmaterialistic as they come, but those rituals aren't really connected to a culture. Like, my family always rally around the kitchen. Mum and I always spend time together in there. Or when Mum's going grocery shopping, I babysit her dog and have quality time with him. Or my love of sharing childhood memories with my family and old photos. Those things are probably more precious than the above, but they were't cultural so I couldn't use those examples. That said, a lot of those examples were always about spending time with my family, not spending money.

I don't think it's a western one, just that I don't really fit in with most because I don't drink, party or crazy stuff like the kids I grew up with. Others are married with kids and don't have a lot of time. So I just got used to being by myself a lot. I wasn't a serial dater by choice, so I got a lot of space to myself. Plus the hobbies I enjoy aren't really group activities: writing, music -- in private, reading books, researching, website development . . . they just lend themselves more to a profession than an active social life. So I just went with that.

I understand what you're saying about influences we don't realise, and I had some of those, but went through it all and deleted them. There were people in my life who were very negative and even though the negativity was focused on others, I did see how it affected me inadvertently. That's why I split. There was a period of complete life tidy that I did, and all of the negative stuff is now gone. I now understand the importance of what we do allow around us, and how we measure against it, or how we find a way to minimalise it. Life got more busy with what I enjoy doing, so I had less time to bother with people who wanted to drag others down, be selfish, or spit on initiatives worth faith, such as religion and family.

I don't know, is globalisation always a bad thing? In some ways, yes, but I wonder if it has limited racism and narrow-mindedness a good deal with the Internet. Think about it. If it wasn't for online communities, you'd never have met a female from Australia to compare these notes with. The opportunity to share our similarities, but also celebrate our differences would not have happened. Nor would other people in other threads from different walks in life. And yes, people can use this communication for negativity and try to hurt each other, but well, even in their own world, they would have done that anyway. I'm always excited to share differences, joys, passions, similarities, ideas, experiences and concerns with others, and ask of theirs. It can form a uniculture sometimes, but there is still that definition of what we are outside of the uniculture, how we differ from the uniculture and what we accept from it. Like that art project, where they ask you to draw someone, BUT you have to draw them by drawing in what surrounds them first.

I think what Tom Rhodes said always made me curious too. "Keep mixing the races until we're all the same grey colour." Granted, not the most perfect way when taken literally, but it highlights that a uniculture, while showing differences will also help us unite in our similarities too. More exposure and understanding for other cultures/lifestyles. There are topical examples I could suggest, but they are fiery subjects so I will refrain. But I'm sure you can think of historical events where two cultures came together based on a common threat. One culture didn't need to devour the other; they just had to find a co-existence that served the purpose.

For a final example of identity and how unique it makes us, let's compare our differences
You have children, I have a dog I treat like a child
You live in the northern hemisphere, and I'm down here upside down!
You love the taste of an organic-bred meat; I like desserts better.
You have snow; I've never been in the snow.

There were other things, but that's a start. And if we had time, I bet we'd both have interesting things to tell the other about each of these. Isn't it awesome to be different? As much as uniculture encourages uniting, it's still important to celebrate the contrasts of humanity. I'm glad everyone is not like me, because well. . . that many book readers would make for a very quiet world, that probably needs to get more sun!

 

[quatona]

Yeah, sometimes people assume restrictions the OP did not impose. It happens. I've learned to go with it.

Well, when it comes to processes (as opposed to objects) I often find the analogy "river" quite illustrative and helpful.
e.g. I don´t think it makes much sense to ask how much of the course of a river comes from the external or from within the river.

 

[Eudaimonist]

How much of your identity would you say comes from the external (culture, community, family, profession) vs. what comes from within you?

Even if parts of my identity are taken from externally learned ideas and values, the particular confluence of those traits within me -- the complex ways in which they combine organically within my dynamic, growing self -- are entirely due to myself.

So, yes, I did build that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Resha Caner]

a blank slate doesn't mean we 'start the same' (at birth). by then we're already shaped by our experiences in utero.

Nor do we start the same in utero.

and I dispute that parents are 'not that important'. even if it had a grain of truth to it, to embrace the idea would be irresponsible.

Then you missed the point since he said parents are important. Are you not familiar with dialectical methods? The point is that some parents make it all about them. They act as if the child is just a puppet and the community has no role. IMO it's the outcome of an extreme individualism ... I have to do it all myself. The point is - no, though parents are important you don't have to do it all yourself - you can't do it all yourself; things will happen that are outside of your control.

 

[SloriB]

Even if parts of my identity are taken from externally learned ideas and values, the particular confluence of those traits within me -- the complex ways in which they combine organically within my dynamic, growing self -- are entirely due to myself.

So, yes, I did build that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Absolutely. Such is the understanding of Gestalt therapy, where life is considered a meal. How we chew/digest what happens to us, react to it based on our experience as our selves, then break it down into understanding and meaning will determine how we signify or remember the event.

 

[Resha Caner]

Well, I have many other rituals that aren't connected to material things. I'm as unmaterialistic as they come, but those rituals aren't really connected to a culture.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't referring to materialism - greed, hoarding stuff, and that sort of thing. I meant simply a connection to the physical realities of the world.

Like, my family always rally around the kitchen. Mum and I always spend time together in there.

Like this. Why the kitchen? Why can't you get that same feeling of connection outside in the yard? Because there is a special, material content to a kitchen. A kitchen is about food ... and food plays a HUGE role in ritual.

This is an important distinction between Lutherans (me) and the way many Christians portray themselves. Too many Christians have been drawn into a mystical view of Christianity where religion is a ghostly, surreal experience. They take on a gnostic belief (which you came close to in your post) that the material things of this world are evil. They are not. God created this material world, and he comes to us through the material - through our physical senses. It is greed that is evil, not the things.

I don't think it's a western one, just that I don't really fit in with most because I don't drink, party or crazy stuff like the kids I grew up with.

OK.

I understand what you're saying about influences we don't realise, and I had some of those, but went through it all and deleted them. There were people in my life who were very negative and even though the negativity was focused on others, I did see how it affected me inadvertently.

Those subtle, unknown influences can also be good.

I don't know, is globalisation always a bad thing? In some ways, yes, but I wonder if it has limited racism and narrow-mindedness a good deal with the Internet. Think about it. If it wasn't for online communities, you'd never have met a female from Australia to compare these notes with.

Ah, you young'uns. Yeah, before the Internet I just sat outside, chewed on sticks, and wondered what those shiny things were in the sky. Don't worry, I'm just joking with you. But seriously, I used to correspond with someone in Australia by paper mail before the Internet. He saw an article I wrote in a magazine and we struck up a conversation.

But, no, globalization isn't all bad. Since the Internet I found a good writing colleague in Australia ... as well as Greece, etc. But, in general, I prefer local distinctiveness to a bland, gray world. Ever seen the movie Blade Runner? It's a weird movie in many ways, but it probably has the most realistic take on globalization I've seen.

Anyway, it's interesting you would credit the Internet with a decrease in racism. I tend to think it has made interaction more impersonal. It's much easier to be a jerk in a forum like this where there aren't any real consequences.

[edit] This sparked another thought. For reasons that would take too long to explain, I'm taking a film class this semester. The professor made a fascinating observation about the Internet generation. There are a plethora of studies underway to see how the Internet impacts people. One way is that this generation has taken more photos than all previous generations combined. And they save them digitally. It has reached the point where a reference to "memory" for some people only means computer memory. It's not a "memory" unless there is a picture of it posted to Facebook (or Snapchat, etc.). So, people's "memory" is now stored on a computer. If someone has become dependent on storing their memory on a computer in ways that make those memories public domain, are they really the individual's memories? If all these memories are shared, what makes the individual an individual?

For a final example of identity and how unique it makes us, let's compare our differences
You have children, I have a dog I treat like a child
You live in the northern hemisphere, and I'm down here upside down!
You love the taste of an organic-bred meat; I like desserts better.
You have snow; I've never been in the snow.

You misspell everything. It's "globalization" and "gray". Fun fact: Most Americans don't realize that Noah Webster (of Webster's dictionary) intentionally set out to create an "American" language that was distinct from English ... one of those subtle influences people are unaware of.

Let's see? What's your opinion of Mel Gibson? Is he an Aussie or not? Gallipoli is a favorite movie of mine.

 

[SloriB]

Like this. Why the kitchen? Why can't you get that same feeling of connection outside in the yard? Because there is a special, material content to a kitchen. A kitchen is about food ... and food plays a HUGE role in ritual.

Nothing to do with food. Actually, it's simply a case of meal times being the only time one or both of us aren't busy. I am busy all day, then spend time with my partner after dinner -- sometimes still working, so poor Mum only sees me at meal times. It's so we have quality talk time without interruption, but we're still getting tasks done, or we wouldn't have enough time to fit everything in. Currently Mum has an injured foot so she spends time resting it during the day. I don't want her to be standing on it, but she insists she wants to do her own chores, so when she's cooking I spend time with her.

A lot of families are like this. The lifestyle these days is quite busy so a lot of families use meal time as bonding time. My partner's family are the same. They all have such busy schedules that clash and overlap that meal time is often the only time to interact.

I believe there has been somewhat of a decrease of racism. Did it completely go away? Absolutely not. There are people in this world who enjoy hurting others for any reason possible, whatever communication means is used. But yes, polarisation and the power of anonynimity does increase the occurrence somewhat. That said, the bravery caused by the anonynimity can strengthen both sides, meaning that there are cases where people who wouldn't normally fight back in real life will online. The Internet can't change people persay, so the good intentioned people will learn more about other cultures, but the negative, discriminators will still earn cold shoulders.

There was still International connection in letter-writing. I had a penpal in Japan at Primary school. However, the opportunities to speak to someone in another country was not as regular or accessible as with the Internet. If you wanted to share a video with a penpal back then, you'd have to make a copy of the video onto a VHS tape (there was no DVD before the Internet), send it in a post pack, then hope it wasn't damaged in the post. More bubble wrap! Our family got the Internet when I was 14, so I had a good experience of pre-Internet and modern convenience.

So you mean something like "I think, therefore I am"? Ie, if someone else has exposure to our memories, would that become an influence to them too? Yes and no. An example. A girl I went to school with had an operation a few years ago. It was a routine operation -- nothing serious. Months later, she was very ill and soon died, leaving behind a daughter. What killed her was a doctor accidentally left a sponge inside her during the operation and she died of septicemia, or more specifically, septic shock. Her mother put a picture of her with her sister on Facebook. That photo is going to mean different things to each person.

Her mother: one of the last times she got to take a picture of her beautiful girl
Me: A beautiful, funny girl who I wished had survived because we never had enough time to really share ourselves properly. Leaving high school causes you to drift apart some when you go off to new schools.
Her child: The mother she didn't get to keep.

Even if it's a shared memory, the nuances of the memory will be unique, making it an individual experience and reaction.

LOL Let's not get into the spelling debate. Heard it for years, and I don't believe there's an end to it, because who's to say what is right and wrong when all fields of language are valid. If we were to debate which spelling style is right, ie globalisation or globalization, then we'd also have to debate how every other language spells the word in their phonetics. No, no, no. . . . too painful for brain to comprehend that many varities of one word!

So this is where my Australian identity falls off. I don't like Mel Gibson movies. Yes, he is Aussie, but I've just never enjoyed his work, nor seen any of his movies the full way through. Mum and Dad love his films, but I've never appreciated them. To be honest, part of it might be some of his drunken, racist behaviours caught by news reporters. I wasn't impressed -- at all. My favourite Australian movie is the Castle, because it's a good depiction of the family values I was bought up with and the fighting spirit. Plus, Michael Caton is funny without ever offending anyone. His characters have charisma in endearing, warming ways. I'm enclosing the trailer and intro which are just funny. That pool table . . .

 

[Resha Caner]

My favourite Australian movie is the Castle, because it's a good depiction of the family values I was bought up with and the fighting spirit. Plus, Michael Caton is funny without ever offending anyone. His characters have charisma in endearing, warming ways. I'm enclosing the trailer and intro which are just funny. That pool table . . .

It looks like it would be a fun movie, but it might be hard to get in my neighborhood.

 

[SloriB]

It's a lot of fun. Of course, not all Australians are the same, but my family are somewhat. The phrasing, the passion for the right thing, the family time being important. . . those sort of things. It's listed on Youtube if you want to pay for it, but not sure if it's available to you via YouTube too. I know they sometimes restrict by reigon.

 

[Locutus]

Nor do we start the same in utero.



Then you missed the point since he said parents are important. Are you not familiar with dialectical methods? The point is that some parents make it all about them. They act as if the child is just a puppet and the community has no role. IMO it's the outcome of an extreme individualism ... I have to do it all myself. The point is - no, though parents are important you don't have to do it all yourself - you can't do it all yourself; things will happen that are outside of your control.

Parenting 101. But thanks