Identity

[WretchedGoat]

we are entirely our lives. down to the last detail. for good or ill.

You are on my ignore list, so please don't waste your time trolling me into a debate.

Resistance IS NOT futile.

 

[Davian]

You are on my ignore list, so please don't waste your time trolling me into a debate.

Resistance IS NOT futile.

An ignore feature in a philosophy forum is one of the most bizarre things I can imagine.

"The philosophy forum is for the critical examination of the rational grounds of our most fundamental beliefs and logical analysis of the basic concepts employed in the expression of such beliefs. Except mine."

 

[quatona]

Internal and external go together. You would not know what a teacher is without others inventing that job, and you cannot teach without other people wanting to be taught. We cannot make our own choices without other people making theirs.

Now that´s all fine and dandy, but what has it got to do with identity?

A creator cannot exist in that role without created beings. If it is his nature to create, he always creates by necessity. I'm personally fine with that idea as a theist.

I was addressing your assertion that you can´t be unique without others being around. Yes, you can.

 

[quatona]

So, can you give an example of what comes from within that makes up at least part of your identity?

No, I find the distinction "from internal vs. from external" to be quite pointless.
I find "identity/self/me" a useful pragmatic concept at a McDonalds counter and in other context, but not as a philosophical concept.
If you have workable philosophical concepts of "identity", "from external" and "from internal", feel free to share them. Then it might be possible to have a discussion based on these concepts.

 

[afishamongmany]

Greetings oh rational and difficult to identify people,
Our identities = our descriptions; that is, how we are described. They are are multiple and varied because the identifiers are so.
Think, maybe, Resha wants us to try and identify (ah! that word again) what we believe to be the nature/nurture components of our own self description?
I'll think about it.
><>

 

[quatona]

How much of your identity would you say comes from the external (culture, community, family, profession) vs. what comes from within you?

So here´s why - for purposes of considering your question - there is no way around positing that the "identity" comes fully "from the internal":

Your implicit premise is: There is a distinction between "the external" and "the internal".
In order to define something as "the internal" you already have to assume an "identity" with which you can associate "the internal" and from which you can distinguish "the external".
Thus, per your question, "identity" defines "the internal", and answers itself.
We either end up with circular definitions, or we end up with inconsistency here. With these two options, I´d go with the first any day, even though this won´t help us make epistemological progress.

 

[WretchedGoat]

An ignore feature in a philosophy forum is one of the most bizarre things I can imagine.

"The philosophy forum is for the critical examination of the rational grounds of our most fundamental beliefs and logical analysis of the basic concepts employed in the expression of such beliefs. Except mine."

There are a lot of people whose ideas have no need to be expressed and should be kept to themselves, thus they are ignored so they don't dirty up my reading of what is otherwise a decent thread. You for example.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There are a lot of people whose ideas have no need to be expressed and should be kept to themselves, thus they are ignored so they don't dirty up my reading of what is otherwise a decent thread. You for example.

You could put all contributors on your ignore list and be assured of a spotless read of the thread.

 

[WretchedGoat]

You could put all contributors on your ignore list and be assured of a spotless read of the thread.

I could also take $25 out of my savings account and put it in my checking account. What is your point atheist? If you're going to make an underhanded comment, do try a bit harder. I have no time for amateurs.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I could also take $25 out of my savings account and put it in my checking account. What is your point atheist? If you're going to make an underhanded comment, do try a bit harder. I have no time for amateurs.

I suspect we're all amateur philosophers here; but perhaps I should have added a smiley... here's one

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

<duplicate>

 

[Resha Caner]

Your identity comes largely from your past life. Duh.

Are you merely a passive recipient as life marches by?

 

[Resha Caner]

There is much more to it, but that's for you to try and read into it. I wrote exactly what I meant to write. Nothing hidden; nothing veiled. If you don't understand it, that's on you, not me. I'm not in the habit of repeating myself to anyone.

Why so defensive? I'm curious about the "much more" you refer to. That's all. But if you don't want to share, that's fine.

 

[SloriB]

This debate has been going on FOREVER: Nature vs. Nurture. Do a Google search and you'll be hit by a million pages in psychology, their all trying to push a particular viewpoint.

I believe it's both. Things happen to us -- external factors -- and life is like eating a meal. As we experience something (chew it) we make sense of it, based on past and present circumstances (swallow it) , then add it to our understanding (digestion) and it might determine part of a choice or idea we have in future.

That said, we also have internal influences. Our need/want cycles, genetics, personality traits we were born with (ie, some are born with more emotionality, or are a Type A, B, C, D personality), the lessons we've internalised and our parental influences which we've grown up to accept as part of ourselves.

Difficulties often occur when these two "systems" clash, so I don't believe there's a definitive answer because the two will battle it out for our choices, beliefs and share space in the "us." Which has more dominance often depends on the person we are or the life we lead, which further feeds into both internal and external factors. For example, a Shaolin monk would be more focused on his internal factors, as they live a life of solitude and so there is little external factors to affect their practices, beliefs, and ideals of self. However, a teenager who spends a lot of their time socialising will be more concerned with external factors because these feed the personality more.

Hope this helps with your debate

 

[Resha Caner]

No, I find the distinction "from internal vs. from external" to be quite pointless.
I find "identity/self/me" a useful pragmatic concept at a McDonalds counter and in other context, but not as a philosophical concept.
If you have workable philosophical concepts of "identity", "from external" and "from internal", feel free to share them. Then it might be possible to have a discussion based on these concepts.

So here´s why - for purposes of considering your question - there is no way around positing that the "identity" comes fully "from the internal":

Your implicit premise is: There is a distinction between "the external" and "the internal".
In order to define something as "the internal" you already have to assume an "identity" with which you can associate "the internal" and from which you can distinguish "the external".
Thus, per your question, "identity" defines "the internal", and answers itself.
We either end up with circular definitions, or we end up with inconsistency here. With these two options, I´d go with the first any day, even though this won´t help us make epistemological progress.

OK. All interesting points.

So, do things like culture, community, family, and profession inform the actions you take in a way that distinguishes you from people of different cultures, communities, families, and professions?

* culture (definition #1)
* community (definition #3)
* family (definition #4)
* profession (definition #3)

 

[Resha Caner]

Hope this helps with your debate

Thanks for the reply, but I'm hoping for a discussion rather than a debate. To that end, you might take a look at post #55. The generalities of the discussion so far are to be expected given the manner in which I posed the question, but I'm actually very pleased with the results so far. Now I'm asking for how you see yourself within the various contexts that have been suggested.

 

[Resha Caner]

No way to reasonably know, but a portion comes from each.

Sorry, I missed your post earlier. I hope you'll continue to contribute to the discussion as it moves forward ... specifically, as I mentioned, post #55.

 

[durangodawood]

Are you merely a passive recipient as life marches by?

I was joking about so called past-lives.

Sereiously, our identities are a recipe of:
genetics
upbringing
friends and peers influence
cultural experiences
self-creation

 

[Resha Caner]

Sereiously, our identities are a recipe of:
genetics
upbringing
friends and peers influence
cultural experiences
self-creation

I'll take the last item in the list to mean the answer to my question is no, you are not merely a passive recipient. For yourself, what do you think is the relative impact of the items you listed? Did you list them in order of importance?

FYI, I could make some loose associations between you list and mine:
* upbringing ~ family
* friends ~ community
* peers ~ profession
* cultural experiences ~ culture

 

[The Mystical Way]

How much of your identity would you say comes from the external (culture, community, family, profession) vs. what comes from within you?

I honestly have had so little to do with socialising and being around other people (including family members) and watching TV and stuff over the past 15 years.... And even when growing up as a child in the '80s I was always kind of a loner and thought it stupid, for example, to stand and look at the flag (Aussie here) while the anthem played, or to mimic the speech patterns and slang and body language of people around me and stuff.... I would say that I'm easily 90 - 95% comprised of what comes from inside of me. I know it beyond a shadow of doubt!