Icons...

[JesusFreak78]

So God = Scripture ?

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

(Nor do I agree that your statements reflect all of Scripture, nor even the heart of Scripture.)

I didn't expect you to agree with me either.

 

[Kristos]

I have been in several EO churches and I didn't like what I saw.

Like what?

 

[Kristos]

Really? again?

I don't think it's as simple as that. Through the Incarnation, we have an experience of the Son of God. As the Man, Jesus Christ, He was heard with ears, He was seen with eyes and He was followed with feet. Some reason there seems to be a preeminence assigned to the hearing by some at the expense of the others. Why is that? Do you find the ear to be a more reliable sense than sight? Are there not four gospels in the new testament? Why are there four? Is one more reliable than the other? Why are they different if the ear is such a reliable source concerning the Word. I don't say this to disparage scripture and anyway, but merely to point out that the same answers apply to icons that are written according to the eye and to faith which is worked out according the following.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Like what?

Like everything.

 

[Nanopants]

Like everything.

Lol. Does this happen to you often?

 

[Dorothea]

Like everything.

No specifics, eh? This does not make your remarks very credible or believable on this.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Like everything.

What's sad is that as a Jewish believer, you cannot see how our historic liturgies are patterned off of temple worship (which is itself patterned off the worship of God in heaven), unlike the ad hoc Protestant services that are patterned off the teaching-singing pattern of that ad hoc arrangement, the synagogue. The question isn't whether you follow a Jewish pattern- the question is whether you follow the pattern of the rabbinic synagogue or the pattern of the divine temple.

 

[Kristos]

Like everything.

so you didn't like the reading from the epistles or from the gospel or the hymns taken directly from the psalms?

 

[Tyndale]

Jewish synagogues are a nice place to be in, (only wish they would preach Christ)... there's just too much distractions in EO + RC churches to be at one with the lord while in there.

 

[Dorothea]

Jewish synagogues are a nice place to be in, (only wish they would preach Christ)... there's just too much distractions in EO + RC churches to be at one with the lord while in there.

:o It is those "distractions" that focuses us on God and why we're there in His house - to worship Him. We all come into church with our minds on worldly thoughts - whatever we were thinking when we came in - the traffic, the weather, what errands we have to run after church, what to make for dinner, who's going to be at church, etc. So, the holy images and smells and hymns sung or chanted, bring out focus away from the worldly and towards God, and that is why it's about an hour of litany of prayers to get to that point where our minds are clear of this and focused on God.

 

[Dorothea]

so you didn't like the reading from the epistles or from the gospel or the hymns taken directly from the psalms?

I don't think he's ever been because he has no examples.

 

[Thekla]

GratiaCorpusChristi


GratiaCorpusChristi,

But that does not accurately represent what it's namesake which the Ortodox use to defend their stance, means.

Eikon means a precise copy, a reproduction or an exact image. So the portrait of Christ the eikonian of God means He is the exact reproduction of God, therefore so should the portrait be an exact replication of Jesus, thee eikon.​

If this is the actual meaning of icon, how can Christ be an icon of the Father without being a/the father ?

 

[Tyndale]

Jewish synagogues are a nice place to be in, (only wish they would preach Christ)... there's just too much distractions in EO + RC churches to be at one with the lord while in there.

:o It is those "distractions" that focuses us on God and why we're there in His house - to worship Him. We all come into church with our minds on worldly thoughts - whatever we were thinking when we came in - the traffic, the weather, what errands we have to run after church, what to make for dinner, who's going to be at church, etc. So, the holy images and smells and hymns sung or chanted, bring out focus away from the worldly and towards God, and that is why it's about an hour of litany of prayers to get to that point where our minds are clear of this and focused on God.

I'm glad it works for you Dorothea, but its just not for me. I can be at one with the lord in a bare room, others might need icons, staues, etc, but imho there is no need for it, especially for me.

God bless

 

[Dylan Michael]

Jewish synagogues are a nice place to be in, (only wish they would preach Christ)... there's just too much distractions in EO + RC churches to be at one with the lord while in there.

So flashy rock-bands and giant screens aren't distracting?

 

[Tyndale]

not a fan of flashy rock bands either, as for the large screens they're good, especially for those with limited sight

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I'm glad it works for you Dorothea, but its just not for me. I can be at one with the lord in a bare room, others might need icons, staues, etc, but imho there is no need for it, especially for me.

God bless

Do think that anyone would have cared if, in ancient Israel, someone said "I can't concentrate on God with those cherubim adorning the veil and all this incense and those bells ringing on the priest's robe!" They would have been told that that's how the corporate worship worked; if they wanted to pray alone in a bare room, they were free to do that, but the community worshiped according to the pattern laid down at Sinai. And that pattern in a representation of heaven.

If you look around a liturgical church and sit through the liturgy, what you see is a living representation of and participation in (rather than just the OT imitation of) the worship of God in the heavenly tabernacle as we see it in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation. You are of course free to pray in your own way (in fact, that a big part of monastic spirituality), but the historic form of the liturgy and its cultural variations among Anglicans, Lutherans, the Orthodox, and Catholics are a continuation of and a Spirit-filled fulfillment of the heavenly pattern of worship that has resounded since Moses.

 

[Dorothea]

I'm glad it works for you Dorothea, but its just not for me. I can be at one with the lord in a bare room, others might need icons, staues, etc, but imho there is no need for it, especially for me.

God bless

I see. All right. I can understand that.

 

[Tyndale]

Do think that anyone would have cared if, in ancient Israel, someone said "I can't concentrate on God with those cherubim adorning the veil and all this incense and those bells ringing on the priest's robe!" They would have been told that that's how the corporate worship worked; if they wanted to pray alone in a bare room, they were free to do that, but the community worshiped according to the pattern laid down at Sinai. And that pattern in a representation of heaven.

If you look around a liturgical church and sit through the liturgy, what you see is a living representation of and participation in (rather than just the OT imitation of) the worship of God in the heavenly tabernacle as we see it in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation. You are of course free to pray in your own way (in fact, that a big part of monastic spirituality), but the historic form of the liturgy and its cultural variations among Anglicans, Lutherans, the Orthodox, and Catholics are a continuation of and a Spirit-filled fulfillment of the heavenly pattern of worship that has resounded since Moses.

Jesus fulfilled the law, God set out a plan since the fall of Adam and what the high Priests done in the Old Testament was not always pleasing to God. I look for Christ in the old testament and live my live as best I can by the New. I simply don't see any point in relating back to the OT for inspiration in church. It it works for you, that's fine, but it just doesn't work for me. I eat pork, I've still got my foreskin, I don't sacrifice lambs, I don't need a high Priest to enter the holies of holies.......cause Christ is my rock, I can commune with him in person without the authority of ordained Reverents, Priests, Bishops, etc.

God bless

 

[Tyndale]

Do think that anyone would have cared if, in ancient Israel, someone said "I can't concentrate on God with those cherubim adorning the veil and all this incense and those bells ringing on the priest's robe!" They would have been told that that's how the corporate worship worked; if they wanted to pray alone in a bare room, they were free to do that, but the community worshiped according to the pattern laid down at Sinai. And that pattern in a representation of heaven.

If you look around a liturgical church and sit through the liturgy, what you see is a living representation of and participation in (rather than just the OT imitation of) the worship of God in the heavenly tabernacle as we see it in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation. You are of course free to pray in your own way (in fact, that a big part of monastic spirituality), but the historic form of the liturgy and its cultural variations among Anglicans, Lutherans, the Orthodox, and Catholics are a continuation of and a Spirit-filled fulfillment of the heavenly pattern of worship that has resounded since Moses.

Jesus fulfilled the law, God set out a plan since the fall of Adam and what the high Priests done in the Old Testament was not always pleasing to God. I look for Christ in the old testament and live my live as best I can by the New. I simply don't see any point in relating back to the OT for inspiration in church. It it works for you, that's fine, but it just doesn't work for me. I eat pork, I've still got my foreskin, I don't sacrifice lambs, I don't need a high Priest to enter the holies of holies.......cause Christ is my rock, I can commune with him in person without the authority of ordained Reverents, Priests, Bishops, etc.

God bless

 

[Tzaousios]

Maybe you can tell me how you represent someone accurately who was without sin when everyone else is with sin? Just because Jesus was born in a human body it doesn't mean He was like everyone else.

Why even ask this question? The point is not to make a representation whose specific purpose is to project sinlessness. At the same time, because it does not do this, does not mean that it denies or rejects it (before you pounce on it). Why must you and simonzealot operate on red herrings and strawmen? Oh, presuppositions...

Scripture doesn't try to tell us how the Word looks like (John 1:1), it tells us Jesus is the Word and the Word is God. The same thing in Colossians 2:9, scripture doesn't tell us how deity looks like, but it tells us the fullness of deity is in Jesus.

As soon as you try to make an icon out of that you are trying to represent something that isn't possible for us to put into an image and by doing so we make a god in our own image.

John 1:1 or Colossians 2:9 does not condemn or denigrate Christian iconography, either. Just like the statements in the OT law do not. Now, the fact that you want them to in order to serve your purpose, well, that is another story.

It is time to stop perpetuating these myths. Your presuppositions about Eastern Orthodoxy prevent you from coming to any positive conclusion about its beliefs. On the other hand, the Orthodox will not become iconoclastic, aniconic Evangelical Protestants and desire only to defend their beliefs from ignorant attacks, despite the numerous references to history that have been provided.

I agree with you, Jesus is having two natures, both man and God, but He is sinless and was sinless when He walked here on earth. This is not the case with everyone else who is a sinner.

What is the "but" for? Nothing in Dorothea's explication of the two natures of Christ or the decisions of the Fourth Ecumenical Council said anything about rejecting his absolute sinlessness. As I mentioned before about red herrings and strawmen...

I have read Revelation several times and from Johns description and you get a mighty view who Jesus is, but I don't believe it's a view you can ever be able to accurately portray in an icon/image.

Once again, the Orthodox have not been arguing that Christ can be represented in his absolute sense, as to ALL that he is. Rather, the iconographic tradition focuses on different aspects of his being. I have said this at least twice already; why do you persist in ignoring it?

It has something to do with being able to accurately portray who He is instead of portraying Him how He is in your mind.

This statement presupposes that Orthodox iconographers desire to portray him in a sinful manner or to misrepresent him somehow. As has been said numerous times already, this is not the point. Stop perpetuating the myth.

I know He dwelt among us, but I have yet to see an icon who shows Him as Isaiah 53:2 describes to us.

As your apologetic reveals, I wonder how many icons in the Orthodox tradition you have actually seen or looked at with real interest. This is to say nothing about honestly investigating the history or the features of the iconographic tradition behind them.

I have been in several EO churches and I didn't like what I saw.

Honestly, though, would you admit it if you did? I doubt anyone expected you to say anything different. Those presuppositions...

I base my statements on all of the bible, not just some of it.

No, we have already been through this. Neither you nor simon are "merely repeating what the Bible plainly says." Rather, you are providing the specific opinion at which you have arrived based upon a set of presuppositions through which you filter the text. In this particular discussion, it those are that Christian iconography is incontrovertibly "idoloatry" and "graven images," and that Eastern Orthodoxy is wrong. The game is not fooling anyone.

I didn't expect you to agree with me either.

Ha! What an ironic statement.