Icons...

[ClementofRome]

I don't know about that! Of course I've only read his "Institutes" and am slowly getting through his commentary - but so far it looks like he quotes Augustine of Hippo more than anyone else. He had a fondness for the philosophers too - but Augustine is all over "The Institutes...."

My apologies,.....I was citing from the hip without my source by my side... Here is the quote from Horton:

"...Chrysostom being perhaps Calvin's nearest partistic influence next to Augustine..." (p. 119)

Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism, Zondervan, 2004

Though Horton ultimately believes that EO theology and Calvinism are not compatible, he believes that they are closer than many other Protestant theologies. A great read. I recommend it.

 

[AndOne]

No worries bro - I'll have to check out that book - looks like an interesting read...

 

[seekingpurity047]

As a former Lutheran I am well familiar with this day. (In fact, as a side note, in all instances when the Lutheran confessions mention the Eastern church it is in a positive light.) BUT...not all divisions in the faith celebrate the Reformation. The Resurrection is something that crosses all boundaries of division in the faith...one could hardly be called Christian without celebrating the Resurrection.

As a point of interest, what is it exactly that you find objectionable about the pictures that look like icons that are up right now?

Well, usually it involves the Mary stuff. Like, I don't really find it umm... offensive, I just think it's dangerous. I mean, many people may get the wrong idea, especially non-christians. I know that our intentions may be good, cuz indeed, Mary is blessed, but she is no more worthy of worship than I am (not saying you worship her or anything, but this may be the perspective that unbelievers may get).

I'm glad that we can get along well. LOL... I usually find it very difficult to get along with Roman Catholics, but Eastern Orthodox people are pretty cool.

Thanks for your patience with me!

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Well, usually it involves the Mary stuff. Like, I don't really find it umm... offensive, I just think it's dangerous. I mean, many people may get the wrong idea, especially non-christians. I know that our intentions may be good, cuz indeed, Mary is blessed, but she is no more worthy of worship than I am (not saying you worship her or anything, but this may be the perspective that unbelievers may get).

I'm glad that we can get along well. LOL... I usually find it very difficult to get along with Roman Catholics, but Eastern Orthodox people are pretty cool.

Thanks for your patience with me!

To the glory of God,

Randy

OK...I see your point of view. Thanks.

I have to ask because in my own family my husband and son (both artists of sorts) do not like icons either (they remain Lutherans)...but less because of their religious significance and more because they think they are poorly drawn, lack perspective, noses and fingers too long, eyes misplaced...that sort of thing.

 

[Imblessed]

I did notice the icons up there, but didn't take much note of it. To me, icons are sort of along the lines of visual help for some. To a lot of people who are more right brained, these can be important. To those of us who are more left brained, they seem a bit....frivolous.

One time I saw pics of an EO service and there was a line of people going along and looking at, , and kissing the icons as the priests(?) held them up. I would be distinctly uncomfortable at that, because that seems wayyy too close to venerating the icons themselves----but then again, as a left brained, practical person, perhaps I just don't understand the feeling of it.

Use of icons always brings the danger of it becoming the idol----but we protestants can fall into the same error of our "learning" becoming our idol also. Idols are anything(doesn't have to be a visual depiction of God or Christ, or a gold statue) that takes the focus off of God, and I've seen just as many christians who "know" but do not "know God"--who spend so much time learning theology that they forget all about their relationship with God.

I cannot fault a person who is visually stimulated for the use of icons if it helps them stay focused on God. I'm not wired that way, so I'll probably never understand how it works.

 

[Nadiine]

I did notice the icons up there, but didn't take much note of it. To me, icons are sort of along the lines of visual help for some. To a lot of people who are more right brained, these can be important. To those of us who are more left brained, they seem a bit....frivolous.

I do digital graphics, and I can attest to finding graphics & visuals A MUST!! vital, necessary,.....

Being brand new to CF (less than 2 wks now), my FIRST priority was to GET MY OWN AVATAR immediately! lol
Stupid & petty, yep -- but mandatory. lol

I guess I'm right brained~!

 

[ClementofRome]

I did notice the icons up there, but didn't take much note of it. To me, icons are sort of along the lines of visual help for some. To a lot of people who are more right brained, these can be important. To those of us who are more left brained, they seem a bit....frivolous.

One time I saw pics of an EO service and there was a line of people going along and looking at, , and kissing the icons as the priests(?) held them up. I would be distinctly uncomfortable at that, because that seems wayyy too close to venerating the icons themselves----but then again, as a left brained, practical person, perhaps I just don't understand the feeling of it.

Use of icons always brings the danger of it becoming the idol----but we protestants can fall into the same error of our "learning" becoming our idol also. Idols are anything(doesn't have to be a visual depiction of God or Christ, or a gold statue) that takes the focus off of God, and I've seen just as many christians who "know" but do not "know God"--who spend so much time learning theology that they forget all about their relationship with God.

I cannot fault a person who is visually stimulated for the use of icons if it helps them stay focused on God. I'm not wired that way, so I'll probably never understand how it works.

That was an excellent post. I really appreciated reading it. Very balanced approach. I have been studying EO now for about 2 years and I am convinced that the purpose of the icon is NOT idolatrous...nor is veneration, worship. I have often echoed your sentiment concerning Protestants....I see the Bible (the actual book itself) being held in a place of worship by many.

Alas, we are SOOO products of our worldview.

 

[Imblessed]

That was an excellent post. I really appreciated reading it. Very balanced approach. I have been studying EO now for about 2 years and I am convinced that the purpose of the icon is NOT idolatrous...nor is veneration, worship. I have often echoed your sentiment concerning Protestants....I see the Bible (the actual book itself) being held in a place of worship by many.

Alas, we are SOOO products of our worldview.

Thank you clem!

you are right, we are totally products of our worldview! I can't wait for the day when I cross over Jordan and finally see clearly. I know there are so many things I'm missing out on in worshipping God!

I told my husband recently that of all the different denominations, I find the EO's to be the most fascinating, simply because (to me) their christianity is so foreign, almost alien, even. It's so.....organic? is that the word? Ahhh, I don't know how to put it. At any rate, it's something that I find incomprehensible, but not in a bad way--in a "I just don't think that way" way! Sort of how we americans don't understand the 'way' of the Japanese(any more than they understand us, I suppose!) I only know that for me to try to practice it would be wrong, because God didn't wire me to think like that! It would be an act.

 

[lmnop9876]

I suppose that my Calvinist icon to the left and my Clement icon on the right are somehow in contradistinction to one another?

absolutely not. St. Clement of Rome was a mere human just like the rest of us, and, though now reposed in glory, there is no reason why we should not make an image or likeness of him. i might change my avatar to an icon of St. Polycarp, i really admire him, and, if not him, then St. Ignatius of Antioch, it's just that i've got to give blessings to get my own avatar.

 

[arunma]

absolutely not. St. Clement of Rome was a mere human just like the rest of us, and, though now reposed in glory, there is no reason why we should not make an image or likeness of him. i might change my avatar to an icon of St. Polycarp, i really admire him, and, if not him, then St. Ignatius of Antioch, it's just that i've got to give blessings to get my own avatar.

I call Saint Justin Martyr.

Again, I have no problem making images of Christian figures. I just get a little nervous when we start putting them in church sanctuaries and praying in front of them.

 

[inchristalone221]

absolutely not. St. Clement of Rome was a mere human just like the rest of us, and, though now reposed in glory, there is no reason why we should not make an image or likeness of him. i might change my avatar to an icon of St. Polycarp, i really admire him, and, if not him, then St. Ignatius of Antioch, it's just that i've got to give blessings to get my own avatar.

Do Justin Martyr, I've been saving my blessings to do Polycarp

 

[lmnop9876]

Do Justin Martyr, I've been saving my blessings to do Polycarp

I'll do St. Athanasius instead.

 

[lmnop9876]

I've made the jump, spent the 200 blessings, and gotten an avatar of St. Athanasius.

 

[inchristalone221]

Athanasius was, without doubt, one of the greatest men of God the church has known. Never did one man strive so hard to defend the truth against heresy save perhaps during the magisterial reformation.

 

[inchristalone221]

Well, after struggling in vain to find a Polycarp avatar, I found one of my favorite portrait paintings of all time (the likeness of John Calvin). That is now my avatar.

 

[Philip]

Well, after struggling in vain to find a Polycarp avatar,

Here you go.

 

[inchristalone221]

Oh, thanks. Polycarp was one of the most interesting church fathers. The Martyrdom of Polycarp was a stirring story, and the encounter he had with Marcion was wonderful.

Marcion: Polycarp, do you recognize us?
Polycarp: Yes Marcion, I know the devil's spawn when I see him.

Sheer gold.