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icedragon's response to Jim Lamore

Adventist Dissident

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It is the same inspiration as the Bible but is not equal to the Bible? He began correct that her writings can't be equal to the Bible if the Bible is to test them but then he denies his own logical statement and declares her writing as inspired the same way as the Bible. It would be more logical to just come out and say that they are equal. But of course that would go against protestant theology and it would make testing her work by the Bible of no use. In short he presents a completely illogical position.

If the EGW claim is true then how can the Holy Spirit be a lesser light in Ellen and a greater light in The bible? Isn't the holy spirt the same in both?
 
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woobadooba

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If the EGW claim is true then how can the Holy Spirit be a lesser light in Ellen and a greater light in The bible? Isn't the holy spirt the same in both?

Did Ellen White say this about herself, or did the Lord actually say this?

Could it be that this was merely her own humble opinion of herself?

Note: I am not siding with any claim at this time. I am just simply asking questions that are designed to get people to put more thought into this.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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This goes back to the subjectivity of the tests. You or a Mormon or someone else can say that their prophet meets all their tests so that their prophet is now an equal source of inspiration with the Bible. It is based upon tests which are determined by the one interpreting the Bible. In this case as Morris Venden and F.D. Nichol's say Ellen White is an inspired commentator on the Bible. As long as you go by the inspired commentator's interpretation then it is easy to say that the prophet is in complete agreement with the Bible. This is why in the broader sense these so called prophets are never accepted like the Bible. Hence they are never as inspired as the Bible. It is a simple reality and merely claiming your prophet is inspired like the Bible does nothing but feed those who already believe in the so called prophet.
 
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PrKirkpatrick

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Ron,
You ae a smart person, so it is surprising that you do not see the difference between authority and phenomenon here. I meant exactly what I said. Newer allegedly inspired writings are always tested by inspired writings that preceed them in point of time. Moses tests Joshua, Isiaiah tests Malachi, Malachi tests Mark, etc. That is, earlier inspired writings test later inspired writings. If more recent writings do not harmonize with more ancient ones, then the more recent ones must be considered uninspired.

Thus, inspiration, in terms of testing other inspiration, functions in layers. Certainly then, not only Moses, but Isaiah and Mark and John and Paul, all the OT/NT writings test EGW's writings. In that sense, in the sense that they are the rule, the test, the measuring stick to which more recent writings are compared, they are superior in authority to them. The tester is superior in authority to the tested. Do you not agree with this? It is also true that the writings of EGW are not part of the broader Bible canon and no one has seriously suggested that they be added to the canon.

The issue of EGW's inspiration in comparison to the inspiration of the Bible writers is not a question of authority as I put it but of phenomenon. Does the phenomenon of inspiration in her work differ in any significant way from its operation in Bible writers? SDAs have long held that no, it does not differ. We do not as a denomination teach differences in degrees of inspiration.

Her writings are subordinate in that they are tested by earlier writings, but if they pass the test, only then they would be considered coordinate in terms of authority. If we should ever have another prophet on the major scale, then his writings would be tested by OT/NT/EGW first because these precede his new writings.

In any case, I only offered the first post in an effort at adding balance and fairness. I am under no illusions that I will actually find any here. No matter. Check back in a few decades and see where the church is then. We both know that liberals reproduce themselves poorly and conservatives well. The future of the church is in good hands.
 
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woobadooba

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This goes back to the subjectivity of the tests. You or a Mormon or someone else can say that their prophet meets all their tests so that their prophet is now an equal source of inspiration with the Bible. It is based upon tests which are determined by the one interpreting the Bible. In this case as Morris Venden and F.D. Nichol's say Ellen White is an inspired commentator on the Bible. As long as you go by the inspired commentator's interpretation then it is easy to say that the prophet is in complete agreement with the Bible. This is why in the broader sense these so called prophets are never accepted like the Bible. Hence they are never as inspired as the Bible. It is a simple reality and merely claiming your prophet is inspired like the Bible does nothing but feed those who already believe in the so called prophet.

Yes, but what do you do when you run into a situation wherein even a prophet of the Bible records something as an accurate interpretation of another passage from the Bible, and it turns out to be an invalid interpretation (not completely, but partially), or a Biblical prophet designating something as being of God when in fact it is something that was never according to the will of God?

And can we even say that all of the prophets of the Bible were equally inspired when some of them had greater insights into things than others had? Thus are there not degrees, or levels of inspiration, even though they came from the same source? If so, how could we then designate the writers of the Bible to be equally inspired?
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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As for the Lesser light greater light argument LeRoy Moore presents some good evidence that this was not meant to indicate her writing as a lesser light to lead to the Bible the greater light. I am not saying whether the statement of lesser light or greater light comes from God or Ellen White just a question of how she used it. Basically it appears the useage was that her lesser light was meant to lead to God not to the Bible as many interpret the statement.
[FONT=&quot]
>This is one of the reasons why Ellen White made it clear that her >work was as a lesser light that led people to a greater light. In other
>words, God used her to point others to what He says through His Word.

This refers to the most misunderstood and mis-represented state-
ments of Ellen White. Fifteen hits in the EGW writings refer to greater and/or lesser light. There are only four primary references and not one specifically refers to the Bible as the greater light. Seven are duplicates of the 1902 statement which is often quoted, but never in context.
Aside from the 1902 statement, one contrasts infidel authors with the truth of revelation. Twice Ellen White identifies John the Baptist as the lesser light and Christ the greater light. And, parallel to this, she once contrasts OT types with Christ.
Thus, in all but the oft quoted quote, Christ and or truth is the greater light. And even it is not so clear but what some are able to argue from context that the "greater light" even there is Christ, "the Lord." But the greatest surprise may come in discovering the issue underlying and precipitating Ellen White's statement, which I will address in post #a (i).

>This is why as Seventh-day Adventists, we say (as did Ellen White) that ALL
>of our doctrines must be able to be supported by Scripture alone. Obviously,
>there are many non-Seventh-day Adventists who believe that the Scriptures
>are inspired of God but who have no knowledge of Ellen White or perhaps even
>reject her as a messenger from God, therefore caution is imperative.

I fully and heartily agree with this statement. But I may want to discuss
it further in #a(i), as this presents only one side of a vital paradox.
Leroy Moore
http://www.sdanet.org/archive/2005/Sep12005/0043.html

[relevant part of his follow-up post]

Distributing Ellen White's books is a vital plan of witness which she strongly urged, as we will see as we now turn to a more specific treatment of her oft repeated but little understood greater & lesser light statement: Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light
(Ev p. 37, 1902).

Indeed, "a lesser light to lead ... to the greater light" reflects the her primary burden in the entire admonition from which the quote comes: the responsibility of our brethren to distribute her books widely to the public. Non-SDAs that are to be led by them to "the the greater
light"--the Scriptures. Nothing in the entire, long testimony reflects any kind of caution against the use of her works, but only for their use by the members and distribution to the public. Of a total of 14 greater and lesser light hits in the Ellen White disk, eight are replications of the above. Three contrast John the baptist as the lesser light to Christ, the greater Light (1860, 1873,) One expands
this to include the entire Jewish dispensation with its types as the lesser light. And one contrasts Christ with lesser light teachers of His day. (The 14th is not relevant.) In all the 13 Christ is consistently the greater light reflected by lesser lights. But none of the lesser
lights statements imply a diminished prophetic role.

One testimony with a context parallel to that of 1902 identifies Ellen White's books as "great light." The devisings of men, she charges, closed "the door to great light which would have shone in place of lesser light" (PH079 7). This "great light" refers especially to the Great Controversy, but also to Patriarchs and Prophets and Desire of Ages. All were demoted by setting them aside for the promotion of lesser light books. This is precisely the context of he oft quoted 1902 "lesser light" statement. Note a few earlier statements in her appeal:
Sister White is not the originator of these books. They contain the instruction . . . God has been giving her. They contain the precious, comforting light that God has graciously given . . . to the world.
From their pages this light is to shine . . . leading them to the Saviour. The Lord has declared that these books are to be scattered throughout the world." She twice indicates God's intent and instructions that these be given "to the world." The very next paragraph, which again reminds of the divine mandate contains the
oft mis-used quote: The Lord has sent his people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light. O, how much good
would be accomplished if the books containing this light were read with a determination to carry out the principles they contain! . . . My brethren and sisters, work earnestly to circulate these books. . .
Take the books to business men, to teachers of the gospel . . ." (Ev p. 37 1902; emphasis supplied).
Though "greater light" refers to the Bible, far from diminishing the role and function "of these books," emphasis is on their divine origin and the urgency that they not only be read and the principles acted
upon by our members, but the entire context has to do with the urgency that they be widely distributed. Because of Ellen White's urgency that her books be read, acted upon, and circulated and in view of the increasing use of this very testimony contrary to
context, I shall present one more post: a (iii) to expand on Ellen White's sense of urgency regarding the divine authority and use of her writings.
A. Leroy Moore
http://www.sdanet.org/archive/2005/Sep12005/0051.html
[/FONT]
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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woob wrote:
Are there not degree, or levels of inspiration, even though they came from the same source? If so, how could we then designate the writers of the Bible to be equally inspired?

I don't but then I don't make the statement that EGW is inspired like the Bible, you should ask Kirkpatrick that question. For me we don't even know most of the people who wrote what is in the Bible whether material was even written by a Prophet. so those issues are not to relevant to me as I am not trying to show that a modern prophet is equal to the Bible prophets.

I will have to answer Kirkpatricks posts latter.
 
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woobadooba

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woob wrote:


I don't but then I don't make the statement that EGW is inspired like the Bible, you should ask Kirkpatrick that question. For me we don't even know most of the people who wrote what is in the Bible whether material was even written by a Prophet. so those issues are not to relevant to me as I am not trying to show that a modern prophet is equal to the Bible prophets.

I will have to answer Kirkpatricks posts latter.

Well, my point is that we can't necessarily rule out the possibility of Ellen White having been a genuine prophet of God on the grounds that she would have had to of been equally inspired as the writers of the Bible in order to validate such a claim.

For, if it can be determined that even the writers of the Bible were not equally inspired, even though their inspiration derived from the same source, then one couldn't justifiably argue that Ellen White wasn't inspired by God on the grounds of inspirational inequality, since such an argument would be invalid.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Did Ellen White say this about herself, or did the Lord actually say this?

Could it be that this was merely her own humble opinion of herself?

Note: I am not siding with any claim at this time. I am just simply asking questions that are designed to get people to put more thought into this.
some statements made about egws prophetic/athorutive/doctrianl role. Here inspiered commentary


http://www.exadventist.com/book/sda_book_9.html

http://www.exadventist.com/book/sda_book_10.html

http://www.exadventist.com/book/sda_book_11.html

http://www.exadventist.com/book/sda_book_12.html

http://www.exadventist.com/book/sda_book_13.html
 
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NightEternal

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But NightEternal,
What we present is undisguised. We are completely open advocates of ML Andreasen, Joe Crews Adventism. But "Gestapo"--what do you mean by that? Do you mean to imply the use of coercion or force? Or is this just smear tactics on your part? There seems a vicious streak in your response to our work. You consistently write-off specific concerns and reply with a spirit that perhaps you do not realize you are displaying. It is interesting to see the attitude that emanates from Good News Unlimited, Present Truth Magazine, Adventist Today and Spectrum. Be that as it may, may you seek and find all the leading of Jesus, and may you be a faithful member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in every way. May you find evermore peace in our Lord. Pr. Kirkpatrick

Save it Kirkpatrick, you have nothing to say that I want to hear. All of the pleasantries in the world do not distract one bit from the fact that GCO is a propaganda machine for the ultra-conservatives. I have seen the types of Pharisees your website produces in coutless SDA churches.

You know as well as I do that if you or your cohorts had the power, authourity and the chance, you would happily take on the work of purging the denomnation of all Progressives, Liberals and Evangelicals. That is what I mean by Gestapo. Only the fact that you cannot prevents you from doing it. No one who didn't subscribe to fundamentalist Adventism would be spared. :priest:

Vicious? You can come and talk to me about that when you have dealt with Kevin Paulson and his ridiculous 'pitbull' book reviews. The way he ripped into Frank Phillips' wonderful book His Robe Or Mine was unforgivable and heinous. :sick:

Everone knows Paulson can dish it out just as much as anyone else.

BTW, if anyone here would like to read Paulson get the dressing down he deserves, go to the Adventist Today archives and have a look at the exchange between him and Desmond Ford concerning the IJ.

It's a thing of beauty! :thumbsup:

This is a war for the very heart of the Adventist denomination, and you know it as well as I. Your Adventism and mine have nothing in common and I won't pretend that there can be harmony or unity with such a theological chasm between us.

Yes, the conservatives may win the future of this church. But it will be over my dead body.
 
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PrKirkpatrick

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I had no idea our websites were so successful. Or that we were so malevolent. Or that seeking to express one's views in a kind and straightforward way would earn responses such as yours. True, a vast theological chasm exists. But, at least from my end, this does not mean I cannot see your value as a person and seek your good.

May God lead each of us. May He bless and lead you EternalNight.

I will now quietly remove my defiling presence.
 
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higgs2

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Please everyone, stop for a moment and think about how you sound to each other and to others who might be lurking here. It's okay to disagree, it is not okay to be uncivil and discourteous. Please be more gracious in your posting.

Peace be with you,
Higgs2, ET Supervisor
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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I think NightEternal is getting overly excited and not representing his views as well as he could. PrKirkpatrick has been pretty straightforward in his explanations. I think if nighteternal cools down he may have some good things to say.

I would like to offer Pastor Kirkpatrick a chance to be interviewed for my blog. As you probably know ProgressiveAdventism.com did a whole series of interviews that were very interesting. But since I am not a Religion professor at an SDA school I don't meet that many people to do interviews with. But I would like to do one with you Pastor Kirkpatrick.

We could just do it by email I could email you the questions and you could answer them and then I would post it on the blog http://cafesda.blogspot.com/
Just run it through spell check and that is about all the editing needed. As long as the answers don't get too long it should work out well.

Just email me at newprotestants@yahoo.com and I will reply with the questions, I will probably write them this weekend if you are willing and you can answer at your convenience.
 
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steffanphilip

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The writer of Hebrews, in the passage quoted, referred to his own time as the 'final days' or 'last days'. Also, do you think groups that have their own prophet, even making their prophet a 'Fundamental Belief', are open to their sons and daughters prophesying and their young men having visions?

Lastly, I think God speaking to us through his Son is where the rubber absolutely meets the road. Jesus is enough.
I should have continued quoting to point out that the last days were not Peter's last days but our day and age :

Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
 
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