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icedragon's response to Jim Lamore

Adventist Dissident

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Icedragon,
How much of the SOP have you actually read? As you were reading it did any part of it jump out at you which caused you to have huge mental red flags telling you that the author was bogus?

When and why did you reject EG White and please give me some solid reasons why you decided to do that.

God Bless you,
Jim
 

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JIM sorry it took so long to write this out. Here is the answer to your question.

I have all of what she wrote, conflict of the ages, thought from the mount of blessing, MOH, the testimonies. I have read the majority of the many complations, thousands of thousands of pages. I have actually sold egw books door to door. I have been a big supporter of EGW up until last year. I was raised SDA and have library's of her books. You name the book I've probally read part or all of it. So I am familure with her writings. I can quote paragraphs by memory.​

As far as EGW's prophetic ministery I don't buy it. Was she a christian yes. I don't doubt her sincerity. I don't think you can attribute her work to the devil. but that does not mean she was a prophet either. I do think that she had some biological and neurological issues that expalin the visions. ibelieve that she sincerly thought she was a special messenger and so did everyone else around her. I do think there is value in her work but just not divine authoritiy. I would take her in the same way I would take other authors. For example the author of "My Utmost for His Highest" Chambers or AW Tozer "In Pursuit of Holiness" I have sensed the Holy spirit in there work as well, but that does not make them prophets. Jim have you ever sensed the H.S. in other christian writings that were not prophets??


As far as how I came to my my non-acceptance of her as a prophet. I will detail it here.​

The following is a list of some of books and articles I read​
1. AT Jones by G. Knight​
b. Jones testimony​
2. Kellogg by Schwarz,​
b. The "Living Temple" by kellogg​
c. Kelloggs testiomony and response to the critics of Living Temple.​
3. WW. Prescott by G. Valientine​
4. Canwright Secteary by Johnson​
5. Joseph Bates by Knight​
6. James White by Wheeler​
7. Canwrighs Testimony​
8. The development of the Advent christian chruch a doctral dissertation​
9. "kingdom of the cults" by Walter Martin​
b. Adventist world.​
10. Slected studies, from the D&R study comitte​
11. Daniel from the D&R Study comittee​
13 . many of the whiteestate responses. some good some bad.​
14. The Spring and Fall feast by Bachiocchi​

As to the specific issues
1. the shut door statements​
2. 1856 bible conference where they voted out the gospel​
3. the kellogg hoax​
4. Prescotts, Waggoner, Canwright, Ballanger, Conradi's issue with Daniel 8:14​
5. The abundance of visionaries in the millerite movement. we just happen to get the right one.​
6. the 1000 year bounding of satan on the "earth" instead of the "abyss" in Rev 20​
7. The "chicago bulding" visions.​
8. 1888 RBF about face done by egw​
9. Just the abuse given to Canwright after he left. Not a good wittness.​
10. the lack of biblic support for the sda chruch being the "remnant" chruch. the remnant is refering to morality not an orginization​
11. The lack of support in the sanctruary typology for the investigative judgement.​
12 The inconsitancy in interpating the spring and fall feasts.​
13. The health visions. just happened to visit a major health center prior to her vision and was preached to for years by Joseph Bates who was a health reformer. Her vision happen to correspond with the helath beliefs and writings of her time.​

Details :

Last May I statrted on a reading program to understand SDA history better. I took SDA history in College but the teacher was just terrible. I learned nothing new from him paid $1200 dollars for a $20 books. So I decided to do something about it. I started reading plan I read all sda material. I did not set out to find fault with EGW. I just stumbled upon it.​
Issues discoverd

AT jones
the RBF champion left the chruch over Ellen's prophetic ministry. so did his buddy E.J. Waggoner although he was also indicted in the Panthism scare. You can read A.T jones testimony online. It is interesting. The 1888 controversy is talked about very much in the in this book and they admit the issue was EGW in Knights book and valientines books. They aslo admit that in 1856 the pioneers had the issue right.​

Kellogg
left over a power struggle, the accuasations of panthisim was just some one making an excuse to get rid of him. I read his book "The Living Temple" it is not there LT is a book on hyigene not panthisim. I went and read it at UNION College they have 2 copies one with the "panthisem passages" the other "edited" pages, this tells you exactly where the problem is located. I compared them and then the DR's testimomony at Q & A session with the Elders before being disfelloshipped and there was not panthism. The whole panthism charge was made up to try to discredit the DR. and gain control of the financial resources that he had. The DR basicly controlled all the shots when at battle creek even EGW had to ask permission and she did not like that.​

W.W. Prescott
was a very brilliant man he was president of 5 different colleges and founded 2 of them. He was also a great Theologian versed in languages. He started to look into Daniel 8:14 and came to the same conclusion as the heritics, but he did not leave the chruch he just kept his mouth shut, until after his employment was up then he talked and they burried his conclusion for alomst 40 years. Also mentioned in the book was the fact that he was at the 1888 conference. He remember U. Smith having a problem with EGW. In 1888 the problem was that people rememberd EGW as taking the exact opposite postion in 1856 and endorsing with a heaven sent vision a different postion, when the subject came up 32 years earlier.​

Canwrigh
t - The poor man. The most maligned man in SDA history. He was treated poorly. I read Canwright's Secetary and Then I read Canwright's Testimony and I found out that He was not the devil he was made out to be. When you compare"Canwright Secetery" with Canwright's Testimony you see a world of difference between them. CS is full of misrepresentations and canwrights Testimony is full of facts. I challange you to compare the two. He had doubhts from the age of 24 to the 41 when he left. he quit the professional minstery numerous times, but was lied about by the denomination as to why. He never left the faith until finally left the church. Canwright knew James white and Ellen and personally wittnessed behind the secens activity at their house I found most of his explinations to be very consisant with what we know about them from history. Canwright was James Whites right hand man when he was in good with the Whites and the devil if he disagreed. Character traits that were considered Good while working for the denomination and the Whites, were abruptly called flaws the moment he left. They exploited those flaws made them bigger. After reading the canwrights sectary I decided to purchase my first Non SDA book.​

Walter Martin
"kingdom of the Cults" I read the 100 pages on the SDA chruch and was suprised how fair he was with us. I was expecting some one who lied about the Sda church, but i did not find that. He was very balance in his treatement about us and his conclusion was that you can be a christian and and SDA, but i just don't get the werid Ideas about the investigative judgement and that prophet. At the same time I read the article in the October issue of "Adventist World" about Hiram edson. I compared it with what walter martin said and found they were reporting things differently. The SDA chruch was softening things to make look better them it really was, That was the trurning point, they had been for years softing the reality of the Great Disappointment. I have since read new material that shows that that the millerites suffered extremely hard after the G.D, persecution and ridiclue, tourture and in somecases death. this is important because the development of the sanctuary came out of this enviroment. they were trying to explain why Jesus had not come they needed something to save face. When Edson had the vision it was in a cornfield? ever wonder why? He was trying to escape the taunts and the mocking gazes of the skeptics. A lot of humiliation and pressuer people were desprate.​
When I got done with those I relized I had accidentily read most of the heritics and trouble makers of Adventism and they all had one thing in common "The Whites" and certian theological passages.​
I then truned my attention to the first generation and the pioneers. I read the books on joseph bates and James white​

Joseph
Bates "The REAL founder of Seventh-day Adventistm" is not far from the truth. Most of the doctrines were held by him before the foundation of the SDA chruch, the lifestyle issues too. Infact, I cannot find one doctrine that that was not held by him before everyone else. Seventh-day Adventism should be called "Bateism". Bates was a prominate Millerite Leader of the Sabbatarian shut door movement. He wrote a book about a year and a half before EGW had her "planet vision" EGW had time to learn what Bates liked and taylor her message to him in order to gain influence. James White would eventually wrest power from him over the shut door issue and the 1851 failure of Christ to return at the end of the tarrying time, which EGW had endorse while in vision. Bates devloped the purpose of the of the Sabbatarian movement that was to call out Gods people from babylon, the other chruches. Bates is also respoinsible for the Sunday Law. http://www.ellenwhite.org/nsl/egw22a.htm good article. The Origins of the Sunday Law are based in the main line chruches rejecting the False interpation of Miller and then the Millerites rejectecting the Shut door Movement. I suggest reading the article above. it is amazing.​

I then read "James White; innovater and overcomer" The first line of the book was not a ringing endorsement for White, quoting U.smith at J.W's furenal, he was a man with may friends and many enemies. It backs up what canwright said. He was also accused about financial misdealings and it plagued him most of his life. He also had a way lashing out at people and making demands on people that were not chrisitan. All consitient with Canwright.​

I then ran accross a disseration on the fromation of the Advent christian Chruch another denomination that was formed from the Millerite movemet. It was intresting for the information that they give on what happened to the Millerites after the great disappointment. The Millerites fractured into many groups of which the SDA came out of, we actually came out of the smallest fracture and the most fanatical one. They were rejected by the main body. the had to come up for the reason for there existence The sunday law issue was invented. This was intersting for the informations about the shut door movement. They give a pretty lengthy explination of the shut door movement. It was then that I learnd that from 1844-1851 those in the movement still believed jesus was going to come and that the door of salvation was shut to sinners, all were lost except those who had accepted millers work, so they did not even bother to do evenglism. I compared this with the EGW statments on the shut door and found that she had endorsed in vision that the door of mercy had been shut and then later denied that she had done so. That Is a HUGH problem. That is a failed prophecy That is when I knew the jig was up as far as her being a prophet.​

 
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At the same time I was looking at theTheological issues related to the sanctuary I noticed that we apply the spring feast to Christ first coming as literal and punctilliar, the fall feast we take as symbolic and representative of an era. the fall feast should be punctilliar as well.

I also noticed that nowhere in the Day of Atonement service is there any review of the sins, records or anything, an event as important as that should be clearly marked. I aslo noticed that there was no conversation between christ and satan as to who was really christs and who was not christ. That too should be clearly noted.​

I also studied Dan 8:14 and noted that the context is the trampling of the saints and the sanctuary by the the little horn power. Leviticus is making atonement for the tabernacle and placing the sins on the scapegoat. I am also reading over the document that Tall73 sent out on Ford by Ministery Magaizine. In it the experts in the Chruch admitt that there is "no verbal link" between daniel and leviticus, that is there is nothing in the original language that would link the 2 passages together. That is the same thing that Crosier, the guy who made it up, said after he abondned the theroy.​

I also noted that in revelation 20 there is a conflice between what EGW says and what the bible says about the bindiding of satan for a 1000 years and the regin of Christ. Satan the bible says is bound in the Abyss,EGW is bound on the Earth.​
that is the where, why and who of where I stand right now as far as the theology and EGW. I consider myself an Evanglical SDAdventist because I believe in the Sabbath, the visible second coming and the State of the Dead, but the evidence keeps mounting against EGW as a prophet and the investigative judgement.​

Jim does that answer your question?​
 
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freeindeed2

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Very thorough response ice. I'm impressed!
 
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Jimlarmore

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I'm unfamiliar with what you are talking about here but it sounds just from the outset to be trivial in nature and not sufficient grounds to dismiss E.G.White as a messenger from God.



If this is an issue to reject the IJ I need some more information as to what you are talking about and how what you are talking about refutes it . The fact that the sins were not reviewed does not refute a symbolic equity to the IJ to me. Clearly, the ceremony of Yom Kippir/day of atonement was symbolic of many things but pragmatically for ancient Israel it was a time to cleanse the nation of it's accumulated sins from the past year. The individual elements of this ceremony are significant to the sanctuarial service that carries thru clear to the end in heaven.


I was researching this a month or so ago until I got involved with this 3ABN mess. I need to get back to it and check this out further. I'm not certain that the fact that contextual reference to host to be trodden under foot as it relates to the sanctuary is a proof or refutation of the 2300 day prophecy being connected to the IJ. As far as the scapegoat or Azazle is concerned it is pretty straight foward from most scholars that it is symbolic of satan.
I also noted that in revelation 20 there is a conflice between what EGW says and what the bible says about the bindiding of satan for a 1000 years and the regin of Christ. Satan the bible says is bound in the Abyss,EGW is bound on the Earth.​


If I remember correctly the same word for abyss used here in Rev 20 in the greek is also used in the LXX in Isaiah to describe the earth after the 2nd coming and the condition of the earth before the Lord moved on it to start creation. If that is the case there should be no problem or conflict at all.


Let me say this. I can get you in touch with some very astute Biblical scholars who will use as many or more valid points as you have to discredit the entire Bible. If you want to find problems in anything you can find them if you look long enough. As I have said previously, if you are looking for perfection in E.G.White you won't find it, however based on what I have read so far I can see the workings of the Holy Spirit on her work. I have only read the Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy in their entirity but that was enough. From all the other things I have read that is critical of her writings they amount to small nit picky things.

I see her writings as pointing the reader to Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I could feel the love of Christ and an annointing on her narrative every time I studied in her writings. I always have a Bible available when I read her writings and she always uses a lot scripture in her explanations and illustrations. So far in the two books I have read I have found no red flags to tell me she is a bogus messenger.

God bless you brother,

Jim Larmore
 
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After the ascension, Jesus ministered in the heavenly sanctuary.

The spring feasts point to Jesus' earthly ministries. The fall feasts point to His heavenly ministries until the second coming and the tabernacle of the 1000 years.

Do you have a specific arguments?

I also noticed that nowhere in the Day of Atonement service is there any review of the sins, records or anything, an event as important as that should be clearly marked.

I suggest you look up jewish writings. They equate Yom Kippur to the Day of Judgment. As far as I know, the book of record of works (good and bad) are opened for judgment. I don't think I need to quote these verses for you.
I aslo noticed that there was no conversation between christ and satan as to who was really christs and who was not christ. That too should be clearly noted.
What are you referring to?

I also studied Dan 8:14 and noted that the context is the trampling of the saints and the sanctuary by the the little horn power. Leviticus is making atonement for the tabernacle and placing the sins on the scapegoat.
Actually the connection came from the Daniel's vision as the answer to the question in Dan 8:13.

As stated repeatedly in Dan 7, 8 & 9, this vision is the time of the end. The cleansing of the sanctuary is the final stage in the history of the salvation: examining the evidence, vindicating the saints, finding the quilty...

What's your personal opinion? You need to study the subjects for yourself, instead of falling for every winds of doctrine. So far the majority of your posts have been cut-and-paste from someone else. What do you believe?
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Jim wrote:
As far as the scapegoat or Azazle is concerned it is pretty straight foward from most scholars that it is symbolic of satan.

Actually that is backward. Most Christian scholars see the scapegoat as Jesus Christ. Of course for the people at the time they had little concept of Satan and they would hardly make an advesary of God the key point in removal of sins from the community.
See http://newprotestants.com/SCAPE1.htm

From my article:
Jim wrote:
This is the frequent response we see from Adventists. Of course most any Christian writer is going to point to Christ so that is of no real importance in the discussion. The second part of his statement is based upon the traditional interpretations of Ellen White that have become part of how people interpret the Bible. Of course not only are they based upon EGW interpretations but the traditional interpretations of her time. For instance tradition has said Lucifer is Satan even though the context in Isaiah 14 is nothing to do with Satan. If you begin with that assumption then EGW works seem to work fine. If you begin with the assumption that God told Adam and Eve the meaning of sacrifices were to point to the coming Messiah, then again EGW works well. But those things are not part of the Bible, in fact if God had told them that why would He not have told whoever wrote the Genesis story that, and why would not that key information been transmitted to those who instituted the sacrificial system?

When you actually compare the Bible to Ellen White and tradition you see there are huge differences. But if you go by tradition or Ellen White then it is easy to add to the Bible the tradition and pretend that what the Bible does not say, it says.

It is this form of traditional interpretation which makes Mormons or Roman Catholics feel perfectly comfortable saying that they follow the Bible. No one sees the red flags until they start to question why they believe what they believe.
 
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Azazel is a hebrew word that's translated as 'the angel who revolt against God' in various bible translations.

“The parallelism of ‘for Yahweh’ and ‘for Azazel’ indicates that Azazel is a proper name, probably of a demon. It was so interpreted by the Syr version of Lev, by the Targum, and by 1 Enoch, which identifies Azazel as the prince of devils who was banished to the desert” (Brown, R.E.. Fitzmyer, J.A. & Murphy, R.E. eds. 1990. The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, p.1282).

"the word Azazel says that it may mean the “apostate one”, a name which the Jews seem to have used to refer to Satan. The ceremony on the Day of Atonement showed that the Lord’s goat was slain to satisfy the requirements of the law. But sin, even though pardoned, cannot remain in God’s presence. It was therefore necessary to remove the record of the confessed sins and place them on Satan, the author of sin. The penalty of sin which should fall on the believer was cancelled (on account of the blood of Christ - represented by the Lord’s goat). However, the penalty was not cancelled, for Satan had brought the believer to apostasy. Satan must ultimately bear the punishment of the sins he has caused the believers to commit (Eadie, J. 1901. Eadie’s Biblical Cyclopedia, p.577) --- Presbyterian

Reading Lev 16:26 tells you the person who let go the scapegoat into the wilderness must wash, clean before he can come back into the camp.

This was defilement. Contrast to the sin offering that cleansed.

This ceremony represents the final guilty party is punished. In Hebrew mindset, judgment is two part: vindicating the righteous and punishing the guilty.

One needs to study the sanctuary services thoroughly to understand this particular event. There is really no valid arguments.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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It would be nice if you would have read my article, then you not have had to take small portions from the Jerome commenatary or from some commentary from 1901:

Here are some of the quotes you could have read:
You would have also seen extensive quotes from the book of Enoch. Then there is extensive Biblical material relating to the removal of sin, none of which has any mention of Satan as involved in the removal of sin.
 
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tall73

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There is more to it . See this thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5273527-the-abyss.html
 
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Jimlarmore

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RC,
I will not debate Biblical issues with you anymore. I'm sorry but your philsophies is so far departed from a faith based interpretation of the scriptures that it's a waste of your's and my time. We are not in the same ball park my friend. You remind me so much of the atheists I used to debate on the iidb. When you told me quite a while back that you didn't accept the Biblical account of a literal flood I knew we had some major problems foundationally with the scriptures. From not believing in demonic manifestations to the your so called Lucifer myth we are just not even close to being on the same page for mutual relativity that would produce a productive dialogue.

I do wish you good will brother.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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freeindeed2

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Are you concerned about RC's salvation?
 
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I sense in your posting someone who does not want to see the issues. you are an intelligent man, but not one who is open to examine evidence. You asked a question as to why and when I stop believing in EGW AS A PROPHET. I delivered on that. I never asked for you opinion. If my belief is going to change it is going to change based on evidence, not emotion. I am sorry the thought that EGW is not a prophet is to much for some people to handle, but grown ups go by evidence not emotion. I will not appeal to emotions, I will not accept emotional appeals. if you have any facts to that contradict what I have said lets here them.

If you are going to be involved in these disscussion you owe to yourself and to other to at least be familure with the issues.

Thank-you​
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Tall wrote
Whoa! Officially ugly website background there man! I am going to read it, but just giving you some feedback. Textured backgrounds make things hard to read.
Actually I find that a very easy one to read and have seen it used quite often. It is easier then white backgrounds too. Of course I also write my pages on one long page so it is easy to highlight it and paste in a word processor.

Jim wrote:
It is strange that you bring this up over the scapegoat issue. Surely you know that the vast majority of Christians reject the Satan as scapegoat argument. As far as the Lucifer myth goes that is simply historical fact. We can go back and find when it originated and who did it. If you look in most modern Commentaries as are quoted at the end of my article on the Lucifer myth you will see that I am very much in the mainstream of scholarly Christian thought. It is not really even a debate anymore. (By the way that page background I might agree is ugly but I still find it easier to read then white)

By the way I do not discount the biblical flood account I merely interpret it differently then you do, you think a story has to be literal to be true, I think stories can express information and don't have to be literally true. It is not a huge difference from what you would say about Jesus' story of the Rich man and Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. I also did not say I don't believe in demonic manifestations, I was merely pointing out that most of the things that we see in the New Age religion is not demonic but sociological and mental manipulations and simple expectations fulfilled by people who want to believe something.

It is probably true that we are not on the same page since I sense that you don't question any of your beliefs. This leads to views which only serve the views that already exist. That is one of the huge differences between Progressive Adventists and Traditional Adventists. One side looks for truth while the other side believes it has the truth. Definitely those two perspectives are not on the same page.

PS,
I gave the quotes from the Jewish Encylopedia as some background as to why the post that quoted from the Jerome Bible Commentary arrived at that view.

while there is certainly a lot of mythology that got incorporated into the ancient Israel's religion if we assume that the service was God directed and God inspired it is less likely that the demonic theories of ancient Israel are the reasons behind aspects of the ceremonies on the Day of Atonement.
 
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How does the book of Enoch have any reliability on a levitical rite?

This rite in connection with Azazel's goat is unique to the Hebrew ritual of the Day of Atonement. When the goats had been first selected by Divine lot, one had been designated "For Yahweh," and the other "For Azazel." Since Yahweh is a personal name for the Deity, many Bible students consider that Azazel must also be a personal name, but for a being who stands in opposition to God. Others have suggested that Azazel may mean "sending away," while still others propose that it suggests a locality to which he was dispatched. Gesenius (Hebrew Lexicon) observed perceptively that neither an action, nor a region can ever form a natural contrast with Yahweh, only a person can. Azazel must, therefore, be the name of a character whose life and purposes are the opposite of God's.

Further, the preposition "for" (lamed as a prefix) used with both goats, must be given the same force in each case. If it describes a relationship with a Person called Yahweh, it must also indicate a relationship with a person called Azazel. Almost a century ago Carl Frederich Keil affirmed: "The view that Azazel is the designation of an evil spirit dwelling in the wilderness (Spencer, Rosenmuler, Gesenius) is now almost universally acknowledged" (Manual of Biblical Archaeology, II, 44). No valid evidence has appeared during the intervening years to cast a doubt on this conclusion.

Another reason to identify Azazel with the devil was the defilement which the goat which represented him caused to the one who conducted him to the wilderness (Lev 16:26). Sin-offerings did not defile, they cleansed (Lev 17:11). Azazel's living goat, laden with Israel's guilt, therefore could not be a sin-offering, for without the shedding of its blood it could bring about no remission of sin. Azazel's goat played a role after, and only after, Israel's guilt had been removed from the Tabernacle and the people of Israel by the blood of Yahweh's goat.

The punctuation of the King James Version has occasionally given rise to the notion that Azazel's goat performed a part in this "atonement" (Lev 16:10). But may I translate this passage literally? It seems clear that it is written in the form of a chiasm:

Lord's goat (dead) -- Aaron shall cause-to-be-near the goat upon which came the lot for Yahweh, and he shall-make-it-to-be- a-sin-offering.

Azazel's goat (alive) -- But the goat on which came the lot for Azazel, He shall-make to-stand- alive before the face of Yahweh.

Lord's goat (dead) -- So as to [LXX] make-atonement with him;

Azazel's goat (alive) -- and to let him go for Azazel into the wilderness.

Atonement requires a vicarious death and cleansing blood. But Azazel's goat was not slain, and consequently supplied no blood. No atonement could possibly be made through him. The rites connected with Azazel's goat point to occurrences in the experience of the devil.
 
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djconklin

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Canright was the one who started the plagiarism claim. On the one hand, one would expect him to be quite qualified since he took over a book that was earlier written by Moses Hull, added a few more chapters and had that published as his. But, when he was at Healdsburg he made various statements that were false and when called on denied that he even said them!
 
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