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Ice Core Chronology

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Farinata

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Sorry it isn't on topic to get into it.
Again, I could ask what evidence you have it is however many years you imagine....too big a topic to get into. Suffice it to say your old dates are old hat.

If you'd prefer to stay on the thread topic I understand but I'd be more than willing to continue this conversation in another thread or via message. I'm not lacking in rebuttals if that's your concern. :)

Yes. No problem. Maybe I'll straighten you out some day in another thread.

Always a possibility. Perhaps even more remote than that is my straightening you out. ;)
 
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dad

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If you'd prefer to stay on the thread topic I understand but I'd be more than willing to continue this conversation in another thread or via message. I'm not lacking in rebuttals if that's your concern. :)



Always a possibility. Perhaps even more remote than that is my straightening you out. ;)
Always better when people think they have a chance...anyhow....raincheck on the sundown showdown.
 
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Zaius137

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To Rick and others…

Science that contradicts the evidence is useless…

Like it or not science is not what it was 40 years ago.

An example would be the unchanging decay rates in radio isotopes. This idea was the bedrock of earth dating.

"Since radioactive decay is known to occur at a constant rate, the age of a rock can be determined from the ratio of the parent element to the daughter element."

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/AgeEarth.html

Since radioactive decay rates have been found to vary with solar activity (not trivial) it is truly a new ball game.

But now variable decay rates of radio isotopes...

Radioactive Decay Rates May Not Be Constant After All - Forbes

Further inconstancies in the Big Bang theory has brought into question the cosmological principle and the dating of the universe. Old dates are not as iron-clad as once thought.

Creationists are knocking at the door and it turns out science is not the exclusive playground of the materialist.

You may not like it but it appears God’s word is more than just a nice story relegated to the faithful.
 
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RickG

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You know ice sinks in rubbing alcohol….

Ice floats because it has trapped air bubbles. If ice floats in rubbing alcohol it is because of the buoyancy of the bubbles trapped in it. Without the trapped air it would sink like a rock due to the much greater specific gravity of of water.
 
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Farinata

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To Rick and others…

Science that contradicts the evidence is useless…

Like it or not science is not what it was 40 years ago.

An example would be the unchanging decay rates in radio isotopes. This idea was the bedrock of earth dating.

Let me be the first to rush to common ground and say that the issue you're raising is entirely relevant, very interesting, and worthy of discussion. Science encourages continual doubt, self-examination, and it would be impertinent to ignore new evidence and phenomenon. Truth fears no inquiry.

Since radioactive decay rates have been found to vary with solar activity (not trivial) it is truly a new ball game.

But now variable decay rates of radio isotopes...

Creationists are knocking at the door and it turns out science is not the exclusive playground of the materialist.

But, there's a reason this observation of potentially varying decay rates isn't as paradigm shifting as you think it is. The varying effect found was very small (possibly why it remained undiscovered for so long). Where physics gets refined more and more (note the word refined, used in the same sense that Einstein refined Newton's gravitation; he didn't, and couldn't, simply throw away 200 years of successful Newtonian calculations), it's to be expected that certain discrepancies should show up. For them not to show up means that we already have perfect theories and all variables accounted for in science, a very precarious assumption.

Now to the papers themselves. One can in fact read the published papers and get it, as it were, from the horse's mouth rather than the sometimes sensationalist media.

arxiv.org/abs/1106.1678

You can also find a whole host of other papers on this topic by clicking on the authors' names. The variation found for the measured decay rates was on the order of 10^-3. To take the example cited in the paper, the researchers found a half-life decay rate for Mn-54 of 310.881 days. This differs from the published value by ~.4% (again parts per thousand). Let's extrapolate from this and take a common isotope used in radiometric dating: the U-Pb decay with a published half life of 4.47 billion years. Say I'm extra extra generous and assume that the published value is off by a huge 10% (a bit more than an order of magnitude above the observed effect) and in the lower direction. That still only gets you to a half-life of around 4 billion years. To get the U-Pb half-life measurement to anywhere close to the thousands of years mark (a difference of many millions of percent, something so absurdly large as to be nonsensical) is just not justified by this experiment or in fact any experiment conducted (though if I err here please direct me to the article and/or experiments saying otherwise). To do so would require throwing out not some but all the evidence ever gathered for U-Pb decay for no rational reason.

Even more so, the paper seems to suggest that this decay rate variation is due to solar output, seemingly the sun's neutrino flux. But the sun is actually more luminous today than it was in the past. So if this variation in half life decay depends on solar luminosity, the variation should actually be smaller in the past if anything (meaning even less freedom to play with decay rate variations).

So the effect is too small to get us to the same ballpark (not even that, the same sport) as creationism.
 
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RickG

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First off you are not at the bottom of the ice…

I know of lakes deep under the ice of Antarctica but not necessarily at 3km (measured depth (you must prove it)). I would like to look at post #184 where it clearly shows at a depth of 3200 meters an age of 1 million years. That depth as I pointed out should be in the range of 3200/7000*14 million years ~6.9 million years (subject to the same assumptions as the 1 million year estimate). The illustration clearly shows an age between 900 thousand and 1 million years(a factor of about 7). Extrapolate the 6.9 million years to the surface ice and you still have a problem (this gives the same 6 million year estimate in accepted age).

Direct ice dating seems to have difficulties if the 14 million year date is assumed to be correct. To reiterate, the problem gets worse when you see that most of the existing ice and ice shelf today was basically in place at 6 million years. In essence near surface ice should be around 6 million years old.

Hand waive all you like but there still remains a very large discrepancy in the dates.

Okay, let's nip this one in the bud. There is a limit to the availability of annual profiles due to pressure. Because of this pressure and compaction, the deeper one drills, the less the resolution. Current Vostok core profiles showing annual layers exceed 900,000 years. There is no reason annual layers should not be detectable exceeding 1 million years.

Ice cores samples in Antarctica, especially the Vostok area have been dated in the area of 30 million years. This however, is not through counting annual layers, but rather radiometric dating of volcanic ash contained near the base of the Vostok ice sheet. That is one way nonconformaties in ice core profiles are reconciled.

Lake Vostok at the base of the Vostok ice sheet is of particular interest to climatologist because seismic data shows an immense layer of sediments at the bottom of Lake Vostok preceding the formation of ice sheet that will allow paleoclimatologists to go even further back in time with very robust climate data.

http://www.eeo.ed.ac.uk/homes/msiegert/pdf3.pdf
http://www.cmgedinburgh2012.org.uk/research/ellsworth/images/LVScienceOct2005.pdf

lake_vostok_cartoon_low.jpg
 
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RickG

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To Rick and others…

Science that contradicts the evidence is useless…

Like it or not science is not what it was 40 years ago.

An example would be the unchanging decay rates in radio isotopes. This idea was the bedrock of earth dating.

"Since radioactive decay is known to occur at a constant rate, the age of a rock can be determined from the ratio of the parent element to the daughter element."

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/AgeEarth.html

Since radioactive decay rates have been found to vary with solar activity (not trivial) it is truly a new ball game.

But now variable decay rates of radio isotopes...

Radioactive Decay Rates May Not Be Constant After All - Forbes

Further inconstancies in the Big Bang theory has brought into question the cosmological principle and the dating of the universe. Old dates are not as iron-clad as once thought.

Creationists are knocking at the door and it turns out science is not the exclusive playground of the materialist.

You may not like it but it appears God’s word is more than just a nice story relegated to the faithful.

You have done nothing more than summarize a Gish Gallop of cherry picked information when examined in full context does not support your claims.

The varying decay rate you cite is an extremely short half-life isotope not used in radiometric dating. Even if it were, the variation observed is still well within statistical significance. Also the results originally reported from that isotope have not yet been corroborated. There are a few other isotopes you did not mention that also have varying rates. They are all short half-life isotopes not used in radiometric dating like the one you cite do not have enough variation to make any difference. Additionally, you also seem to over look the fact that isotope decay rates have been observed and measured from gamma ray bursts in supernova millions of light years away. Those decay rates are the same as observed on earth today. You also seem to ignore all the many non radiometric dating methods, particularly ice cores, that correlate extremely well with radiometric methods.

However, let me remind you that this thread is not about radiometric dating. If you wish to discuss that topic please do so in an appropriate thread.

Please get back on topic.
 
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RickG

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So a gas bubble!! Wow. How impressive. That really clinches it!:) There was plants and gas and dust pre flood and at the atart of the ice age. So this doesn't seem to help you.

I fully, openly and honestly answered your question. Answering you question wasn't meant to help me, it was meant to help you.
 
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