Ice Age?

[A4C]

No, you essentially avoided what the Hebrew text is saying. The Hebrew text doesn't say pitch, it says bitumen, which IS a fossil fuel.

Genesis uses "pitch" so that is all that matters

Gen 6:14 Make6213 thee an ark8392 of gopher1613 wood;6086 rooms7064 shalt thou make6213(853) in the ark,8392 and shalt pitch3722 it within4480, 1004 and without4480, 2351 with pitch.3724

Pitch (resin)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


Pitch is the name for any of a number of highly viscous liquids which appears solid. Pitch can be made from petroleum products or plants. Petroleum-derived pitch is also called bitumen. Pitch produced from plants is also known as Resin. Products made from plant resin are also known as Rosin.

Tar pitch appears solid, and can be shattered with a hard impact, but it is actually a liquid. Unlike glass, pitch flows at room temperature, but extremely slowly. The pitch drop experiment taking place at University of Queensland is a long-term experiment which measures the flow of a piece of pitch over many years. For the experiment, pitch was put in a glass container with a hole in the bottom, and allowed to slowly drip out. Since the pitch was allowed to start dripping in 1930, only eight drops have fallen out, demonstrating that pitch has a viscosity approximately 100 billion (100×109) times that of water.

Do you happen to know where Noah might have had his petroleum plant?

 

[Asimov]

Genesis uses "pitch" so that is all that matters

Genesis DOESN'T use pitch, so it's NOT all that matter, A4C.

The Hebrew text uses bitumen.

Anyway, I'm going to end discussing this, it's pointless speaking with someone who wont even look at the Hebrew words in order to get the full idea.

 

[notto]

So what are we disagreeing on -whether lava exists in sediment layers No we agree on that. It seems like you want me to take a trip to US and study what you are talking about and give you first hand comment OK I will do that if you will provide the plane fare and accommodation and all expenses (Nothing too flashy but just make sure that there are no fleas in the bed )
All I can surmise from the sketchy detail I have is that perhaps the lava formed within the sediment layers while all was submerged and the upper layers got removed in the devastation of the receeding waters -I dont know anything is posssible

The lava in the grand canyon flows down the walls of the already eroded canyon. These are the lava dams addressed when discussing the Grand Canyon. If you didn't alreay know that, they why are you even trying to address the issue? This just goes to show that you refuse to research anything yourself and instead you presented a link to something completely different that had nothing to do with the Grand Canyon lava dams. Instead of addressing the evidence that we have, and before even finding out what that evidence is, you gave an ad-hoc from the hip response that shows again that you don't understand the evidence at the Grand Canyon. Now this post openly admits that you don't even know what is there yet you continue to talk about how this is great evidence for a global flood. And to sum it up, you end with 'anything is possible'. No its not. It is not possible to explain the evidence we find in the geology of the grand canyon in a global flood model. Your responses and avoidence of the evidence only continue to emphasis that point.

 

[notto]

That is a good paper from obviously a highly respected person. Like many there are different opinions on things Perhaps I have thought differently to others on this issue and have seriously considered the massive forces that can be involved in receeding flood waters. Also the fact that that water could very well flow in differing directions based on what path led to the lowest point. This could happen with a breach of a damming effect for instance. This could account for some weird rock formations with soft slabs of sediment.

No, this doesn't describe the evidence we find in folded rocks at all. The folded rocks are not the result of water. Water erodes, it doesn't fold rocks. Pressure, time, and heat fold rocks. Soft slabs of sediment erode when exposed to water. Isn't that you entire argument of how the grand canyon formed? Whatever folded the rocks, it had nothing to do with receeding flood waters or the path it takes to the lowest point. More ad-hoc answers that show you don't understand even the mechanisms that creationist geologist talk about.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

A4C - why did this massive flow of receding flood water not go in something resembling a straight line, but rather cut tight meanders?

The thing is that the cartoon you posted from AiG is dishonest. Park Rangers do not sit there thinking that the evidence points to it being carved by a lot of water in a short time, because it doesn't.

Why are you linking to an organisation that flouts the ninth commandment? You talk about flouting the "Word of God", but meseems it is the creationist organisations who don't give a flying one about truth, honesty, and avoiding the bearing of false witness.

 

[A4C]

A4C - why did this massive flow of receding flood water not go in something resembling a straight line, but rather cut tight meanders?

At no time was the canyon filled with water from top to bottom but commenced from the top down. Just like any other water course the path of least resistance was taken thus determining the eroded path.

The thing is that the cartoon you posted from AiG is dishonest. Park Rangers do not sit there thinking that the evidence points to it being carved by a lot of water in a short time, because it doesn't.

Do you know each of the rangers personally and have supernatural insight into their thoughts? If so is this part of your job or do you just make a hobby of it?
Having said that I must say you do show your touchy side

Why are you linking to an organisation that flouts the ninth commandment? You talk about flouting the "Word of God", but meseems it is the creationist organisations who don't give a flying one about truth, honesty, and avoiding the bearing of false witness.

I am familiar with the Scripture you use as I am with the one concerning the accuser of the brethren. Now if you think a brother sins you should take it to them. No use telling me about it. As for associating with sinners well Jesus did and after all it is also said "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." or "He who has not sinned ----cast the first stone"

 

[A4C]

The lava in the grand canyon flows down the walls of the already eroded canyon. These are the lava dams addressed when discussing the Grand Canyon. If you didn't alreay know that, they why are you even trying to address the issue? This just goes to show that you refuse to research anything yourself and instead you presented a link to something completely different that had nothing to do with the Grand Canyon lava dams. Instead of addressing the evidence that we have, and before even finding out what that evidence is, you gave an ad-hoc from the hip response that shows again that you don't understand the evidence at the Grand Canyon. Now this post openly admits that you don't even know what is there yet you continue to talk about how this is great evidence for a global flood. And to sum it up, you end with 'anything is possible'. No its not. It is not possible to explain the evidence we find in the geology of the grand canyon in a global flood model. Your responses and avoidence of the evidence only continue to emphasis that point.

I have checked the web information available to me and have not yet found any detailed diagrams of where lava flows are and what evidence there is that there were actually "dams" or was that speculation. My quess that there would indeed be lava but as for it forming a dam when there is continually floowing water as there would have been in the flood aftermath, I cannot see how that could be.

 

[Gracchus]

What things must happen that the ice age can born?

If we think about birth of the ice age, it is simple matter. It demands to be born only powerful decreasing of temperature and the growth of the rainfall.

All that is required is that more snow falls than melts. Strangely enough, this can be triggered by an initial rise in temperature, which causes more and stronger storms. This causes increased cloud cover over landmasses which shields the snow from the sun in the summer, while the reflectivity of the snow causes cooler winters.

Weather is a very complex process, and attempts at simplification will lead you astray very quickly indeed. Chaos theory and catastrophe theory play a very big part. Indeed, chaos theory was discovered by a scientist trying to model the weather on a computer.

 

[Jet Black]

At no time was the canyon filled with water from top to bottom but commenced from the top down. Just like any other water course the path of least resistance was taken thus determining the eroded path.

in your model, did these water flows pass through cloud cuckoo land before they carved out the canyon then?

 

[A4C]

in your model, did these water flows pass through cloud cuckoo land before they carved out the canyon then?

Could you reword that into less scientific terms please

 

[Allister]

a global flood. caused by what?

if there was a global flood covering all land for a year. wouldnt all animal life be extinct, including humans?

you mention noah. did he hoard all the animals of the earth 2by2 onto his boat.
if you believe this does that include birds, insects, bacteria etc.

 

[notto]

//

I have checked the web information available to me and have not yet found any detailed diagrams of where lava flows are and what evidence there is that there were actually "dams" or was that speculation. My quess that there would indeed be lava but as for it forming a dam when there is continually floowing water as there would have been in the flood aftermath, I cannot see how that could be.

It's simple. There wasn't any flood aftermath. Here again, you are wishing the evidence away because it doesn't fit your model. If you cannot see how it could be in a flood model, and we know (without a doubt) that these dams existed, then don't you think its time to reevaluate your model?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

I have checked the web information available to me and have not yet found any detailed diagrams of where lava flows are and what evidence there is that there were actually "dams" or was that speculation. My quess that there would indeed be lava but as for it forming a dam when there is continually floowing water as there would have been in the flood aftermath, I cannot see how that could be.

Check no more. Kindly re-read my previous link. As stated earlier, one of the authors is no other than Austin himself, which I also believe you used in making one of your points. So there you have it. A source, written by an author you readily accept, and yet you have only found "speculation" on the web. At this point, I do not know if I should take you seriously or not.

 

[caravelair]

in your model, did these water flows pass through cloud cuckoo land before they carved out the canyon then?

Could you reword that into less scientific terms please

 

[Loke]

Thank you for backing up my claim . So if you picked up a slab of these still soft sediments and and put pressure on one side would it not be posible to "bend" the slab so the "layers" remained together around the bend. Now this is a mini version of some rock formations at the Grand Canyon Right? Now supposing those layers were allowed to dry out (ie have the water table hundreds of meters below it ) would not pressure and time cause that to form into rock (even in the bent form)?

My point was that sediments being 10-20 million years old doesnt have to be hardened because of a few hundred meters of pressure.
I don't know the geology of the Grand Canyon, but the layers you're reffering to are probably shale, sand- or limestone. It's no way possible for them to form, and being eroded, within 4-5000 years.

Regards
Loke

 

[A4C]

a global flood. caused by what?

if there was a global flood covering all land for a year. wouldnt all animal life be extinct, including humans?

you mention noah. did he hoard all the animals of the earth 2by2 onto his boat.
if you believe this does that include birds, insects, bacteria etc.

What God wanted to be saved He saved which equals that what you have today plus that which has become extinct in the the last 4500 years. As for how He did it, I refer you to the Book of Genesis. If the answer you want is not there I doubt if I can help you either.

 

[A4C]

My point was that sediments being 10-20 million years old doesnt have to be hardened because of a few hundred meters of pressure.
I don't know the geology of the Grand Canyon, but the layers you're reffering to are probably shale, sand- or limestone. It's no way possible for them to form, and being eroded, within 4-5000 years.

Regards
Loke

My point is that they were eroded not as hardened rock but as semi hardened sediment. ie within 12 months of being laid down

 

[Allister]

What God wanted to be saved He saved which equals that what you have today plus that which has become extinct in the the last 4500 years. As for how He did it, I refer you to the Book of Genesis. If the answer you want is not there I doubt if I can help you either.

what about dinosaurs?

 

[A4C]

Check no more. Kindly re-read my previous link. As stated earlier, one of the authors is no other than Austin himself, which I also believe you used in making one of your points. So there you have it. A source, written by an author you readily accept, and yet you have only found "speculation" on the web. At this point, I do not know if I should take you seriously or not.

My error here is one of omission I omitted to check what Austin had written but simply saw it in a Christian site not knowing that it mentions ice ages and maybe a whole lot of other things maybe I dont agree with. But in that respect the creationists have YECs and OECs so differences have to be expected.
Now as for lava dams could you give me references where you can see (by illustration or pic) what evidence there is to support that theory or is it only speculation whether it is a creationist or other who is being speculative. Thank you

 

[A4C]

what about dinosaurs?

What about them?