I would like to make a suggestion . . . .

[racer]

if I may.

Can we not all discuss Marian Dogma/Doctrine in a respectful manner. I know that many of us who do not hold to these beliefs do not agree with the sacredness those who do place on them. So, let's please express our disagreements and arguments in a respectful manner.

And, for those who do adhere to these beliefs, please do not take disagreement for disrespect or hate.

God bless everybody!

 

[TheListener]

How would you feel when someone publicly disrespects your own mother? It's hard not to get emotionally involved with these discussions.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

For the record, I, as a Protestant, regard Our Lady as blessed above all women. In a certain sense, I honor, esteem, revere, adore, venerate and worship her - and I'm shocked by how many Catholics here at CF say they don't.

I so regard Our Blessed Mother not only for her model of faith and devotion, her obedience and role in salvation history (all of which likely affirm her position as chief of all saints) but above all because she is the Mother of God - which places her in a totally unique position above all people.

It is BECAUSE I revere and adore her that I think truth matters. It's not because I direspect her or disregard her, but because I love and adore her. And I'm frankly dismayed by Catholics repeatedly telling me and other Protestants otherwise.

I do not doubt - for a second - that all Catholics are sincere in their spirituality vis-a-vis Our Lady. I witnessed and lived it for some 5 years, it's solidly genunine. But that doesn't make it true. And I KNOW - to the core of my soul - that no one intends to hurt Our Blessed Lady, but that doesn't insure that it doesn't happen. I note and affirm with all my being the sincerity and intent of those who believe these dogmas. But that doesn't settle the issue for me.

One might mean to honor me by calling me "Doctor" and embraceing a dogma that I have a Ph.D. from Harvard Divinity School. But I don't. That's a lie. And so stating it would not honor me or cause me joy, it would hurt and embarrous me. I do not desire to hurt Our Blessed Lady - and thereby also her Son. Thus, to ME, truth matters. I think that's all the Protestants here are saying.

And I've NEVER said that any of these dogmas are false or unbiblical or heretical. I"ve just said I'm not convinced they are true. HUGE difference there; apples and oranges. Lutherans have no dogma on these issues - one way or the other. We don't have any dogma about the conception of Mary or the frequency of the sharing of sexual intimacies between Mary and Joseph after Jesus was born or what happened to Mary's body after she died or didn't die (as your beliefs may be). We don't say you're wrong and we dont' say it's dogma. You are free to hold these views as pious opinions - and some Lutherans do. We just don't declare anyone a heretic if they don't hold these views, we don't question their eternal salvation because they don't, we don't shout anathamas at them if they don't. Or if they do. It's the CC with the dogmas here. I know of NO Protestant denomination that has ANY dogma over ANY of these 3 issues that divide Catholics and Protestants. The ball is entirely and soly in the Catholic court. The burden of proof is theirs.



But please stop stating that Protestants do not love, esteem, honor and adore Our Lady.



Thank you for the discussion and for reading my $0.01


May God richly bless you and yours in Christ our Suffering Servant in this holy season of Lent.



Pax!


- Josiah

 

[Rick Otto]

you're not dealing with cold rationality. You are dealing with grandiose religious affection. What's to respect of that?
The only thing we can hope to respect is a person's freedom of thought. There is now way on earth you can respectfuly tell a person that they've been so seriously misled, and have the news recieved calmly, generaly speaking, I think.

Gotta admire your attitude, tho. We need to try.
Thanks for reminding us, bro.

I see the way we relate to Mary as a template or Rorsach (Ink-blot)Test of how we relate to ALL women.
I think elevating her out of reach as role model is unconcious subtle cruelty, reflective of some male fear & loathing of women, and self-loathing in some women. I've been wanting to start a thread addressing that, and expect to pretty soon. I had a rash of distractions pop up - overtime at work & car repairs at home.

 

[vrunca]

if I may.

Can we not all discuss Marian Dogma/Doctrine in a respectful manner. I know that many of us who do not hold to these beliefs do not agree with the sacredness those who do place on them. So, let's please express our disagreements and arguments in a respectful manner.

And, for those who do adhere to these beliefs, please do not take disagreement for disrespect or hate.

God bless everybody!

God Bless you Racer!! The sentiments of this post are very caring and loving and There are a good amount of people who truly come around to ask honest questions, because they truly want to learn more about their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Or people will just come in and show respect towards Jesus' Mother. We don't have to agree with one another to be kind and loving toward one another.

Then there are others who just aren't very charitable and caring, or tactful for that matter. I long ago decided I would not put people on ignore, because of ignorance and I haven't completely done that. Because I myself am ignorant about things and want to learn....but when you match up ignorance with a uncharitable, tactless personality, you get baiting and flaming and I have decided that those are the people who need to be ignored, just so we are not feeding the trolls.

But your post is a good reminder to those of us who are hear with true love for our brothers and sisters at heart, instead of hatered. Oh and I will add that if anyone decides to ignore the trolls like myself, keep them on your prayer list...and pray regularly for them, it must be awful to harbor such awful hatered!!

Peace!!

 

[BAFRIEND]

if I may.

Can we not all discuss Marian Dogma/Doctrine in a respectful manner. I know that many of us who do not hold to these beliefs do not agree with the sacredness those who do place on them. So, let's please express our disagreements and arguments in a respectful manner.

And, for those who do adhere to these beliefs, please do not take disagreement for disrespect or hate.

God bless everybody!

The problem in my opinion is that a small fraction of Catholics are making it look as though it is a popular movement among Catholics that Mary be made a coredemptrix.
They even had the secular media believing the Pope was in support of it.
This is called scandal. It is nothing but harmful. It has drawn a deeper wedge between Catholicism and Evangelicals. It places a barrier in front of those seeking to enter the Church to move forward.
It is not the belief nor the teaching of the Catholic Church. It is just a group of fringies. Proliferating this is, in my opinion, bearing false witness upon the vast vast majority of Catholics who adhere to the authority of the Catholic Church.

 

[Rick Otto]

What do we do when that small fraction includes his holiness, THE Authority himself, the Pope?


"Pius XI: “You young people [Spanish pilgrims] ought to associate yourselves with the thoughts and desires of our Blessed Lady, who is our Mother and Co‑redemptrix"

BENEDICT XV: 'The Blessed Virgin suffered with her suffering Son and nearly died with Him when He died; she abdicated her maternal rights over her Son for the salvation of men, and so far as it appertained to her she immolated her Son to placate the divine justice; so that she may rightly be said to have redeemed the human race with Christ."



Darn those secular media!

Simonthezealot, where'd you cull these quotes?

 

[BAFRIEND]

What do we do when that small fraction includes his holiness, THE Authority himself, the Pope?


"Pius XI: “You young people [Spanish pilgrims] ought to associate yourselves with the thoughts and desires of our Blessed Lady, who is our Mother and Co‑redemptrix"

BENEDICT XV: 'The Blessed Virgin suffered with her suffering Son and nearly died with Him when He died; she abdicated her maternal rights over her Son for the salvation of men, and so far as it appertained to her she immolated her Son to placate the divine justice; so that she may rightly be said to have redeemed the human race with Christ."



Darn those secular media!

Simonthezealot, where'd you cull these quotes?

The Churches teaching is clear. The sole mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ. The role of the Saints (including Blessed Mary) is to lead the believer to Christ.
In Vatican II "Lumen gentium" The Fathers of the council mentioned Blessed Mary as Advocate" , "Mediator" , "Mediatrix" ... but concluded, '... so understood that it neither takes away anything nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ as the one Mediator."

St Paul stated, "In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His body the Church." (Col. 1:24). That is a vision of the role of sinful people like you and I in the salvation of the world. If ti is true for us, then it of course holds true for the sinless Virgin Mary. In that sense we are all co-redeemers. But Jesus is the sole mediator.

 

[Rick Otto]

how & why does it become a point to extrude about her?

And if the teaching is so clear, why are so many of us confused?

"...so understood to mean ~" is revision.
So understood to mean it doesn't mean exactly what it sounds like it is saying, to the average person.

It doesn't seem intellectualy honest to me.

 

[BAFRIEND]

'... so understood that it neither takes away anything nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ as the one Mediator."

That is the teaching. Sounds clear to me. If there is a problem then it is not with me, it is with the Church... The Mystical Body of Christ. I am not going to violate '...the dignity and efficacy of Christ as the one Mediator." because those appointed to be Bishops have told us not to.

 

[geocajun]

if I may.

Can we not all discuss Marian Dogma/Doctrine in a respectful manner. I know that many of us who do not hold to these beliefs do not agree with the sacredness those who do place on them. So, let's please express our disagreements and arguments in a respectful manner.

And, for those who do adhere to these beliefs, please do not take disagreement for disrespect or hate.

God bless everybody!

thanks for saying that racer.

 

[Iollain]

How would you feel when someone publicly disrespects your own mother? It's hard not to get emotionally involved with these discussions.

Yes it is hard, especially when Jesus is being publically disrespected.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

For the record, I, as a Protestant, regard Our Lady as blessed above all women. In a certain sense, I honor, esteem, revere, adore, venerate and worship her - and I'm shocked by how many Catholics here at CF say they don't.

I so regard Our Blessed Mother not only for her model of faith and devotion, her obedience and role in salvation history (all of which likely affirm her position as chief of all saints) but above all because she is the Mother of God - which places her in a totally unique position above all people.

It is BECAUSE I revere and adore her that I think truth matters. It's not because I direspect her or disregard her, but because I love and adore her. And I'm frankly dismayed by Catholics repeatedly telling me and other Protestants otherwise.

I do not doubt - for a second - that all Catholics are sincere in their spirituality vis-a-vis Our Lady. I witnessed and lived it for some 5 years, it's solidly genunine. But that doesn't make it true. And I KNOW - to the core of my soul - that no one intends to hurt Our Blessed Lady, but that doesn't insure that it doesn't happen. I note and affirm with all my being the sincerity and intent of those who believe these dogmas. But that doesn't settle the issue for me.

One might mean to honor me by calling me "Doctor" and embraceing a dogma that I have a Ph.D. from Harvard Divinity School. But I don't. That's a lie. And so stating it would not honor me or cause me joy, it would hurt and embarrous me. I do not desire to hurt Our Blessed Lady - and thereby also her Son. Thus, to ME, truth matters. I think that's all the Protestants here are saying.

And I've NEVER said that any of these dogmas are false or unbiblical or heretical. I"ve just said I'm not convinced they are true. HUGE difference there; apples and oranges. Lutherans have no dogma on these issues - one way or the other. We don't have any dogma about the conception of Mary or the frequency of the sharing of sexual intimacies between Mary and Joseph after Jesus was born or what happened to Mary's body after she died or didn't die (as your beliefs may be). We don't say you're wrong and we dont' say it's dogma. You are free to hold these views as pious opinions - and some Lutherans do. We just don't declare anyone a heretic if they don't hold these views, we don't question their eternal salvation because they don't, we don't shout anathamas at them if they don't. Or if they do. It's the CC with the dogmas here. I know of NO Protestant denomination that has ANY dogma over ANY of these 3 issues that divide Catholics and Protestants. The ball is entirely and soly in the Catholic court. The burden of proof is theirs.



But please stop stating that Protestants do not love, esteem, honor and adore Our Lady.



Thank you for the discussion and for reading my $0.01


May God richly bless you and yours in Christ our Suffering Servant in this holy season of Lent.



Pax!


- Josiah

Is it okay for Catholics to say that Protestants are being "disrespectful" toward Our Blessed Lady (as several at CF have to me, publicly and privately)?

Is it not okay for a Protestant to even raise the possibility that Catholics might be "disrespectful" toward Our Blessed Lady by ascribing to her things perhaps not known to be true?

 

[racer]

you're not dealing with cold rationality. You are dealing with grandiose religious affection. What's to respect of that?

Well, it’s not the first time I’ve been accused of that. Believe me, I’ve done my share of insulting people by expressing my thoughts in what is perceived as offensive manners. Sometimes, I get so frustrated I still do. However, I don’t think anybody should be “offended” by another’s beliefs and faith. Yet, people are. I just believe that we can state our beliefs in respectful and tactful ways, some people will most likely still be offended. But, that’s on them.

Rick, like Josiah, I don’t find what you say to be offensive. I find it straightforward and honest. But, we have to realize that some people express their thoughts in very rude and disrespectful ways. It’s not okay for anybody of any faith to do this. Just because we can say that others have displayed such demeanors toward us does not make it okay to react in kind. This was a true struggle for me, because I always wanted to react in kind. I still struggle.

The only thing we can hope to respect is a person's freedom of thought. There is now way on earth you can respectfuly tell a person that they've been so seriously misled, and have the news recieved calmly, generaly speaking, I think.

I think the assertion that these people have all been deceived is wrong. For the simple fact, the majority of RCs I know are highly intelligent people and they have not based what they believe on deception. They have the same information that you and I have, they have studied, prayed about it and come away believing the opposite of you and I. Personally, when someone tells me I’ve been misled or deceived, I find it offensive. I’ve not based my beliefs on soft-hearted spiritual gullibility. I’ve read, studied, prayed, etc . . . and continue to do so. However, I should not be offended when someone is telling me something because they are truly concerned about the state of my salvation----however, I am human. So, yes in some respect you are right. No matter how tactful we try to be, sometimes what we say still offends others. But, as I said above, that’s on those who choose to be offended.

My “grandiose affection” does not compromise my beliefs. I still present the same arguments, and I still express my disagreement with the theologies and ideologies that I have in the past. I just try to be a little more gracious about it.

Gotta admire your attitude, tho. We need to try.

Hey, it can be done.

Thanks for reminding us, bro.

Uh-hem, you mean you haven’t figured out that it’s “sis,” yet?

I see the way we relate to Mary as a template or Rorsach (Ink-blot)Test of how we relate to ALL women.

I think elevating her out of reach as role model is unconcious subtle cruelty, reflective of some male fear & loathing of women, and self-loathing in some women. I've been wanting to start a thread addressing that, and expect to pretty soon. I had a rash of distractions pop up - overtime at work & car repairs at home.

While I believe that Mary would likely be dismayed at some of the Marian veneration practiced, I don’t know if I agree with this statement, or else I just don’t understand what you are saying. Maybe you will be able to clarify things a bit when you start the thread.

 

[Uphill Battle]

A good thought, sis. I posted a thread like this, and 3 pages in it turned to the usual bickering. Hope yours goes better.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.



Some thoughts....



1. I often wonder how Our Blessed Lady (and thereby her Son) feel about all this Marian dogma and practice... I love her and would not want her hurt.


2. The POTENTIAL for offense is limitless and unavoidable. For many of us, our faith is the most central, most personal, most intimate, most precious aspect of our lives. It may well be the one thing many of us would literally die for. When someone disagrees, that can be hurtful and it's not unreasonable that it may cause some to lash out offensively or become unreasonably defensive. I don't think that's unexpected. I think that's human nature. I have a high tolerance for that, and thus rarely hit that "report" icon or respond in kind. If you absurdly said anything negative about my significant other, I'm going to be upset - and just might say or do something out of character. My faith is infinately more precious to me.


3. CF is an INTERdenominational forum. People from a full spectrum of faith communities are invited and embraced here. THAT MEANS WE'LL DISAGREE. That some are shocked or offended by this never ceases to amaze me. IF a poster cannot tolerate or emotionally handle their beliefs being disagreed with, they shouldn't be here - or at least they should limit their activity to the excellent denomination specific forums in the Ecumenical Team. The staff there does and EXCELLENT job of protecting posters from those who would question or disagree with them. But I'd actually recommend that they post at a website specific to and perhaps officially run by their denomination. There are many excellent ones. To be very blunt, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."


4. As I understand it, the purpose of this website is to advance unity among us, embracing theological and attitudinal ecumenism; the site is fundamentally ecumenical in nature. The only way known to me to advance understanding, consensus and cooperation is for us to talk to each other and discuss those issues that divide us. Otherwise, I suppose we can all just ignorantly smile at each other and sing "Kumbiya" together, but I don't think that's unity at all. I think that's a sham. And this is too important for that. BUT, if people don't want to come together with those that disagree and don't want to learn or grow or seek consensus - that's okay, I have NOTHING against that, but I do sometimes wonder why they are here. This is not an apologetics website, it's an ecumenical website.



5. As in all the interdenominational websites known to me, there is MUCH talk of offensive. But it always seems to work one way - the poster can be offended but cannot give offensive. Actually, I tend to think we all need to "check" those knee-jerk reactions just a tad at the door before agreeing to engage in interdenominational, ecumenical discussions with those who disagree with us. Disagree does not equal offense.



Thank you for the discussion and for reading my $0.01


May God richly bless you and yours in Christ our Suffering Servant in this holy season of Lent.


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

if I may.

Can we not all discuss Marian Dogma/Doctrine in a respectful manner. I know that many of us who do not hold to these beliefs do not agree with the sacredness those who do place on them. So, let's please express our disagreements and arguments in a respectful manner.

And, for those who do adhere to these beliefs, please do not take disagreement for disrespect or hate.

God bless everybody!

What a lovely thought... I think it's a good place to start.

Thank you racer!

Forgive me...

 

[Rick Otto]

What I tend to appreciate most, I missed in you.
My bad.

I meant you were dealing with grandiose religious affection in others, not yourself, sis. Sorry if I was vague.

 

[simonthezealot]

What do we do when that small fraction includes his holiness, THE Authority himself, the Pope?


"Pius XI: “You young people [Spanish pilgrims] ought to associate yourselves with the thoughts and desires of our Blessed Lady, who is our Mother and Co‑redemptrix"

BENEDICT XV: 'The Blessed Virgin suffered with her suffering Son and nearly died with Him when He died; she abdicated her maternal rights over her Son for the salvation of men, and so far as it appertained to her she immolated her Son to placate the divine justice; so that she may rightly be said to have redeemed the human race with Christ."



Darn those secular media!

Simonthezealot, where'd you cull these quotes?

It was a Catholic page defending the term, I'll see if I can find it.

 

[simonthezealot]

It was a Catholic page defending the term, I'll see if I can find it.

http://motherofallpeoples.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=293&Itemid=84