I would like to learn more

genryu1989 said:

I read a post by seashale that orthodox christians believe heaven and hell are the same place, I was hoping someone could give me biblical proof texts for this concept, and also if you tell me about some similar doctrines
to this one, this is like nothing i have heard from other christian sects and makes alot more sense then burning in flame for all eternity lol. and also, i would like to know the orthodox's stance on my beliefs below...

I'll let someone else tackle that one.

Men and women are completely equal (i.e women can be priests, serve in the military...)

Men and women are completely equal, absolutely! But we are not the same, and we have differing roles within the Church. Only *some* men may be priests. Not all men, not women. I realize this may not satisfy you, but I would like to say that there is no feeling of anyone being superior to anyone else in the Orthodox Church. Even our "highest" Patriarchs are just sinners struggling toward salvation, same as the "lowest" layman. No one lords it over anyone else, regardless of our roles within the Church.

All races are equal

Yes.

Same sex attraction is natural, animals and humans have done it since the beginning of creation, therefore LGBT's should be given equal rights (not once did jesus mention homosexuality, and marriage is not just a "christian" union)

We disagree.

Has respect for other religions

Respect - yes. All (or at least most, probably) religions have some good, some truth, in them, but only Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Mankind has free will (no predestination, prophecies are an exception)

Yes.

Science is not evil or wrong, and the "True" religion MUST be compatible
with it (although it can be wrong at times, it usually fixes itself later)

God created all things, so anything "proven" by science must be true, but that doesn't mean that all scientific theories are true, or that science is the ultimate way of knowing about creation.

"God" cannot "know" the future (if he did, then whats the point in creation? it'd be like watching a bad movie over and over again, you know it sucks and whats going to happen, so why bother?), He may however with full knowledge of past and present, make a VERY educated guess as to what will happen in the future.

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genryu1989 said:

And as for the topic of homosexuality, whats the churches offical statement on it?

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Blackknight said:

It's a bit nuanced actually. Being a homosexual is not a sin any more than being a heterosexual is. It is when you act out on those urges that it becomes sinful.

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genryu1989 said:

Men and women are completely equal (i.e women can be priests, serve in the military...)

Click to expand...

Men and women are completely equal (i.e women can be priests, serve in the military...)

Click to expand...

All races are equal

Click to expand...

Same sex attraction is natural, animals and humans have done it since the beginning of creation, therefore LGBT's should be given equal rights (not once did jesus mention homosexuality, and marriage is not just a "christian" union)

Click to expand...

Has respect for other religions

Click to expand...

Mankind has free will (no predestination, prophecies are an exception)

Click to expand...

Science is not evil or wrong, and the "True" religion MUST be compatible with it (although it can be wrong at times, it usually fixes itself later)

Click to expand...

"God" cannot "know" the future (if he did, then whats the point in creation? it'd be like watching a bad movie over and over again, you know it sucks and whats going to happen, so why bother?), He may however with full knowledge of past and present, make a VERY educated guess as to what will happen in the future.

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I dont doubt Gods omniscience, but if he has the "knowledge" of everything thats is going to happen, then like i said, our creation is just one big movie, or are you saying we can change whats going to happen? and maybe in a way suprise god?

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vanshan said:

In very short, those souls who enter heaven with impurity of heart, bound by sin and death, experience the bright presence of God as a burning fire, while those who've been saved by Christ experience it as warm pure love. The essay above gives a much better description of this and it does include scriptural references to support this understanding.

Think back to the descriptions of God as an All-Consuming Fire.

Basil

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genryu1989 said:

I read a post by seashale that orthodox christians believe heaven and hell are the same place, I was hoping someone could give me biblical proof texts for this concept, and also if you tell me about some similar doctrines
to this one, this is like nothing i have heard from other christian sects and makes alot more sense then burning in flame for all eternity lol. and also, i would like to know the orthodox's stance on my beliefs below...

Click to expand...

http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=208 said:

The Kingdom of heaven is already in the midst of those who live the spiritual life. What the spiritual person knows in the Holy Spirit, in Christ and the Church, will come with power and glory for all men to behold at the end of the ages.

The final coming of Christ will be the judgment of all men. His very presence will be the judgment. Now men can live without the love of Christ in their lives. They can exist as if there were no God, no Christ, no Spirit, no Church, no spiritual life. At the end of the ages this will no longer be possible. All men will have to behold the Face of Him who "for us men and our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate ... who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried . . . " (Nicene Creed) All will have to took at Him whom they have crucified by their sins: Him "who was dead and is alive again." (Revelation 1-.17-18)

For those who love the Lord, His Presence will be infinite joy, paradise and eternal life. For those who hate the Lord, the same Presence will be infinite torture, hell and eternal death. The reality for both the saved and the damned will be exactly the same when Christ "comes in glory, and all angels with Him," so that "God may be all in all." (I Corinthians 15-28) Those who have God as their "all" within this life will finally have divine fulfillment and life. For those whose "all" is themselves and this world, the "all" of God will be their torture, their punishment and their death. And theirs will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:21, et al.)

The Son of Man will send His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. (Matthew 13:41-43)
​

According to the saints, the "fire" that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same "fire" that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the "fire" of God's love; the "fire" of God Himself who is Love. "For our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29) who "dwells in unapproachable light." (I Timothy 6:16) For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the "consuming fire" of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same 66consuming fire" will be the cause of their "weeping" and their "gnashing of teeth."

Thus it is the Church's spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God's splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

... those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (St. Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises)
​

This teaching is found in many spiritual writers and saints: St. Maximus the Confessor, the novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky. At the end of the ages God's glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the Face of Christ. Man's eternal destiny - heaven or hell, salvation or damnation - depends solely on his response to this love.

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genryu1989 said:

All races are equal

Click to expand...

Has respect for other religions

Click to expand...

Mankind has free will (no predestination, prophecies are an exception)

Click to expand...

Science is not evil or wrong, and the "True" religion MUST be compatible
with it (although it can be wrong at times, it usually fixes itself later)

Click to expand...

"God" cannot "know" the future (if he did, then whats the point in creation? it'd be like watching a bad movie over and over again, you know it sucks and whats going to happen, so why bother?), He may however with full knowledge of past and present, make a VERY educated guess as to what will happen in the future.

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Josiah14 said:

This is pretty clear, I think, on the Orthodox position on Homosexuality:
Homosexuality - OrthodoxWiki

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As for what i meant, i dont think God can "know" the future like we know our own past, because our whole creation would be exactly as i described it, a movie, because unless the future as God knows it can be changed (by us for example), then we are just that, a really crappy and sadistic movie for Gods viewing pleasure lol

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genryu1989 said:

Matt, thank you so much for that, the man speaking was very clear and understandable, and actually made a little sense.

Like the OC's concept of hell, is there more doctrines that are similar that you think might interest me? Doctrines that are completely different to mainstream christianity maybe?

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1. Non-scholastic theology: we don't view theology and philosophy as two roads to the same truth, though philosophy can be useful at times. We specifically rejected the attempt to forcibly reconcile humanist philosophy and Christian revelation in the middle ages. Philosophical inquiry can help us know when we're being stupid, but doesn't do much to produce actual knowledge - note how rationalism has fallen apart in the Post-modern era. This is a point at which we diverge with the Western church, which still (Protestant and Catholic) lives in the legacy of Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury.
2. The Mystery of the Cross: We don't believe that God needed Christ to die in order to create sufficient payment to outweigh our sins and, thereby, to be able to forgive us. God's forgiveness is freely given, freely recieved. We DO use the phrase that Christ died as a sacrifice for our sins, but this is the fulfillment and completion of the Levitical sacrificial system. In general, we emphasize two things: that Christ's Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection were all one process of (re)uniting man to God (or of "recapitulating" the world to God), and that His death and resurrection were more about conquering death than "earning" forgiveness of sins. In other words, we generally reject the absolutist sense in which portions of the West have elevated the penal-substitution model for understanding the cross. In the final analysis, though, the Cross is a mystery, and several models or means of understanding may be necessary to approach this mystery, and ultimately our only response can be to stand in awe and silence, gazing on the mystery of God dead, and again on God risen.
3. Apophatic Theology: this is part of the RCC tradition as well, but has been somewhat downplayed post-Scholastic, and I never encountered it in the Protestant world. According to one Orthodox saint: "All men's words are lies." In other words, anything we say about God must be qualified. We don't make (or should be VERY cautious about) absolutist statements regarding God. Only a few have been revealed, and these we proclaim, but we should never pretend to understand God. Our words are finite, and God is not, and that should be kept in the forefront of our theology if we are to avoid pride.
4. The Metaphor of the Hospital: Going back to different "feels" in how we view salvation, we tend to avoid the "courtroom" metaphor, in which salvation is a juridical process. Instead, we favor the "hospital" metaphor, in which we are ill (with sin, leading to death) and Christ is the physician (adminstering the medicine of immortality: His own flesh and blood, His grace, His love). It gives a different feel to the spiritual life, as we aren't concerned about "guilt" or "innocence" as an external declaration. We're concerned about "health" or "unhealth" - the ontological condition of one's soul.
5. NonRelativistic, NonJudgmental: A tricky balance, but a critical one, sometimes lost in the more fundamentalist branches of Western Christianity. We are certainly NOT relativists. We affirm a teaching and the Truth (Christ). But despite this, and perhaps more easily than the West because we are less dogmatic than the West, we do not use the proclamation of the Truth as occasion to judge others. In other words, you asked about homosexuals. I know that for me such an act would be spiritually unhealthy (see the hospital metaphor above); if someone asks, I'll let them know I think it would be unhealthy for them too. If there end up being 2 billion people who were practicing homosexuals in heaven (and by God's grace I'm there to see such a thing), I'm not going to go complaining to God about how they were sinners and shouldn't be there Same for Buddhists, or atheists, or ANYONE. Furthermore, neither am I likely to complain if there are many many Orthodox not in heaven. A label means nothing. The heart joined to God in Christ is what matters - and though the Truth matters for this (for Christ IS the Truth), it isn't a cognitive Truth. It isn't a belief system - Truth is a PERSON. And that PERSON comes to us only by grace. In the words of one Orthodox theologian: "The church holds no monopoly on grace, God saves whom He wills." It would do well for those of us, like me, who struggle with pride, to remember that the Truth is not a bludgeon with which to berate others and feel superior to them. It ought to humble us, for possessing a higher Truth, we will be judged all the more strenuously on that last and terrible day.
6. Ancient Succession, Conciliar Ecclesiology: We're the only Church in the world, aside from the non-Chalcedonians, that can claim succession directly from the apostolic communities and that isn't Papist, but maintains the ancient decentralized ecclesiology (each bishop as overseer of his area) with a conciliar method of solving larger issues / building consensus on key items.

Macarius said:

1. The Mystery of the Cross: We don't believe that God needed Christ to die in order to create sufficient payment to outweigh our sins and, thereby, to be able to forgive us. God's forgiveness is freely given, freely recieved. We DO use the phrase that Christ died as a sacrifice for our sins, but this is the fulfillment and completion of the Levitical sacrificial system. In general, we emphasize two things: that Christ's Incarnation, Life, Death and Resurrection were all one process of (re)uniting man to God (or of "recapitulating" the world to God), and that His death and resurrection were more about conquering death than "earning" forgiveness of sins. In other words, we generally reject the absolutist sense in which portions of the West have elevated the penal-substitution model for understanding the cross. In the final analysis, though, the Cross is a mystery, and several models or means of understanding may be necessary to approach this mystery, and ultimately our only response can be to stand in awe and silence, gazing on the mystery of God dead, and again on God risen.

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