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I was a Christian ... once. [moved from new member intros]

mrmccormo

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What evidence do you have that rationalism is more effective at determining the truth than reductionism, or naturalism, or spiritualism, or dadaism, or rolling a couple of dice? Can you even prove that truth exists? Can you prove that atheism is not a belief system? Atheism - by definition - is the belief that God has not been proven. It is a belief, and quibbling over the meaning of belief is silly. If you believe something is or is not, it is still a belief. If you have no belief, then there is no reason to give yourself a label.

You are obsessed with definitions, much like your fellow atheists. In the absence of your ability to prove and explain your own stance, you would rather waste words saying "but we don't have a stance. We lack a stance". As such, you're not even arguing. You're dodging. Instead of engaging in the conversation, you dodge it. Yes, you demand Christians to provide such lofty facts, proofs, and hard evidences from science, from history, from all sorts of places. Yet, when the lens of proof is turned against you, the canned answer is to say "but...I don't have a stance" as you shrug your shoulders.

The sticking point is that you apply a scathing standard to beliefs not your own, yet you place an incredible amount of blind faith in those who have laid the groundwork for your belief. I understand it makes your blood boil that I would even dare suggest you learned this from someone else, but I'm sorry, you did. Nothing you've said is in any way, shape, or form new or novel. You have learned it from someone else, and you give those sources the same blind faith that you accuse me of giving to God.
 
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Spectrox War

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I have never said that science is perfect. If you truly believe that then you don't understand the scientific method and the concept of uncertainty and probability. To use the courtroom saying "Beyond reasonable doubt." is perhaps better. Science is the best method we have to date for homing in on the truth of a situation.

I don't know anything about the theory you are talking about above. It sounds like bad science, like the kind of rubbish I just read on Answers in Genesis. But the point is it seemed to get exposed. The truth seeped out eventually. This would never happen with religion. It would be dismissed.

Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot etc. Yes I've heard this a few times. It's difficult to draw a causal link between these tyrants and their alleged atheism as if they did these things in the name of atheism. I'm not sure Hitler was an atheist anyway.

It is easier to draw a causal link between what Christ said and the Spanish Inquisition - to my mind the most appalling crimes ever committed against humanity, arguably even worse than the Nazis! The Nazis killed people quickly (not good) but the Spanish Inquisition deliberately perpetuated people's suffering because they thought it was purifying their victim's souls. Jesus's claim to be the Son of God and his insistence on a Hellish afterlife for unbelievers must have inspired the Inquisition to some degree. And also when Jesus said "If your right arm causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away, for it is better to enter heaven maimed ..." won't have helped these unfortunate people.

Without religion, good men would do good things and wicked men would do evil. For a good man to do something evil, it takes religion.
 
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Palermo

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Actually,dear brother,you rely entirely on the scientific method- Modern medicine,which cant heal people everytime and in every illness,also has many side and allergetic effects,but gods power is enough for everything,relying on god is much trustable then relying on medicines.Transport,people used to walk great distances or move with horses.and of course,computer.which,like all other corrupted man-made things,always having problem and mostly serves for evil.

How do i know i have the right god ? hmm i dont know how to explain,but you know when you have it also,even illogicallness of something (like evolution and big-bang theory) doesnt prove 100% that its wrong you can see the difference when you learn about christianity and other worldly man-made ''religions''.
 
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elman

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How do i know i have the right god ? hmm i dont know how to explain,but you know when you have it .

God, if He exists, is who He is and not created by our imagination of Him. We are all wrong to some degree on our view and understanding of God. Therefore, no one has the right God. Also we believe in a loving Creator. We don't know anything for certain and if we think we do, we have deluded ourselves. Faith, not certainty, is very much a part of the search for truth.
 
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Palermo

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Sorry,brother but i dont understand what you mean
 
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Spectrox War

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A basic tenet of logic states that the burdon of proof is on the person making the claim. For people to say that there is an invisible, inaudible superbeing who made everything in existence is a grand claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So atheism IS a stance on the God issue and atheists believe there is insufficient evidence to provide a rational justification for the existence of a God or Gods. Of course I have beliefs / opinions - they are based on evidence. I want to have as many true beliefs as possible and to have as few false beliefs as possible. Don't you? I give people the benefit of the doubt when I first meet them, unless they provide good enough sensory evidence for me to make it necessary to avoid them.

Of course, Eric Hilbert tried to turn all that round when he debated with me and demanded answers off me and not once did he demonstrate why I should believe the Bible. I went a great deal further than most atheists in my capacity as an ex-Christian. I think the Bible provides good evidence that it is partially false.
 
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Spectrox War

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I forgot the obvious. What's your view on the genocides in the OT, fully supported by the God of the Bible? How do these episodes make God any different to Hitler, Genghis Khan etc.?
 
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Spectrox War

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I don't agree. Faith in what exactly? Why is faith a virtue? I think it's insanity.
 
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Spectrox War

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I agree that modern medicine isn't perfect. Mistakes are made. Hopefully we learn from them. I don't think that God (which one?) is the answer. What do you mean when you say that God's power is enough for everything?
 
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Palermo

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I agree that modern medicine isn't perfect. Mistakes are made. Hopefully we learn from them. I don't think that God (which one?) is the answer. What do you mean when you say that God's power is enough for everything?

We learn from mistakes of modern medicine,but we still keep mistaking,this will never end,their working is vain.Yeah,you agree or not brother,but god (the only and real god described in bible) is the answer.i mean gods power is enough for everything,i dont get why you didnt understand what i mean by this,its clear,his power is enough for everything,doing miracles,healing sick people etc.
 
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Spectrox War

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It sounds like Christianity is working for you. I'm genuinely pleased for you. It just isn't for me, that's all. Too many issues I couldn't resolve. Never mind. Maybe in the next life? All the best. Spectrox.
 
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elman

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Sorry,brother but i dont understand what you mean
Look at James 3:2. James is talking about theology when he says we all make many mistakes. Look at Matt 25:31 and following. Notice how both the sheep and the goats were surprised. I don't think certainity is our goal as Christians. If we had absolute certainity we would not need faith.
 
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Palermo

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Yeah,sounds good.So should we doubt god and yet keep believing ?
 
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Spectrox War

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Elman's signature: I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die.

So it's a choice between non-existence or living forever with a bunch of Christians? That last one is my idea of Hell. I'll take the non-existence, thanks.
 
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Palermo

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It sounds like Christianity is working for you. I'm genuinely pleased for you. It just isn't for me, that's all. Too many issues I couldn't resolve. Never mind. Maybe in the next life? All the best. Spectrox.

But you can do something for it,like seekin god and ask him for faith and show you truth.He will hear you.But u should first ''want'' it,and do it.
 
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Harry3142

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Spectrox War-

You are judging decisions made 3,500 years ago under the harshest of conditions as if they were made yesterday. What you read in the Old Testament is how wars were fought at that time. It was bloody, and it was brutal, and Moses, as a former general in pharaoh's army (according to Josephus' Jewish Antiquities) knew how to fight in that manner. But where were your amcestors 3,500 years ago? Mine were in northern Europe, gleefully killing everyone they didn't know, as well as some they did. To sit in judgement on any of the nations that we today recognize as the cradle of civilization is not only nonsensical, but also the epitome of arrogance.

We Christians have our own set of laws that we are to live by, found in the New Testament. The laws and commandments of the Old Testament (613 in all) were the laws and commandments of the old covenant. The laws and commandments that we Christians are to follow replaced those laws 2,000 years ago, and are what we call the laws of the new covenant.

And what are the laws and commandments that we are to live by? I quoted one of the passages that contains them in a previous message, but it's well-worth quoting again:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

To follow any of the acts of the sinful nature is seen by us as following that which is evil. It doesn't matter if its sexual promiscuity or hatred of others because they are different. Both are to be shunned, as well as all the other emotions and/or acts listed.

Instead, as Christians all our words and actions are to have as their source the fruit of the Spirit. Those 9 emotions dictate whether we are 'in synch' with God, or whether we are conspiring to use his name in order to accomplish our own personal agendas. They are our 'yardstick', measuring whether not only our words and actions conform to God's will, but also the impetus behind those words and actions conforms to God's will.

And how does God expect us to demonstrate those 9 fruit in our daily lives? Jesus himself told us exactly what he expects of us in the strictest passage to be found in the entire New Testament:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The king will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (The Gospel of St. Matthew 25:31-46,NIV)

Christ told us quite clearly that, as he saw the suffering around him and endeavored to alleviate it, so we are likewise to see the suffering around us as something to be alleviated. It is not to be seen as God's judgement on others, nor is it to be seen as a sign that we're better than others are. It's to be seen as a situation that we are duty-bound to alleviate to the fullest extent possible. If a person claims to be a Christian, but has no compassion for the suffering he sees around him, avoid him, because he's using the cross as a smokesecreen to hide what he's really up to.

Christianity is a religion of practical compassion toward others, not a religion of peitism and stand-offishness. If you say that you have chosen not to believe in God, but your heart goes out to those around you, you are actually closer to God than you realize. You just can't see him because you're both turned the same way, looking at those in need.

BTW: The spanish inquisition finally ended when the pope issued an edict which declared that all of a heretic's property was to go to his children, rather than its being confiscated by the inquisitors. That should tell you what they were really up to.
 
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Spectrox War

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God's support of genocide is wrong. Full stop. It's his reality. He could have created it in any way he wanted. God could have demonstrated peaceful protest like Ghandi. I think that's far more morally powerful than raping and pillaging. Instead he encouraged Moses, Joshua et al to ethnically cleanse.

Still not convinced about your explanation of the Spanish Inquisition as just seizing of property. I have read around this subject quite a bit and there was more to it than that IMO.

The bit where you say "If you say that you have chosen not to believe in God, but your heart goes out to those around you, you are actually closer to God than you realize. You just can't see him because you're both turned the same way, looking at those in need" I actually quite liked as a metaphor, although it doesn't convince me that God exists.
 
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razeontherock

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God's support of genocide is wrong. Full stop.

You are entitled to your opinion whatever it might be based on, which in this case in uninformed anachronism. (Including the fact that Jews say
G-d never ordered any of that, but never mind the facts, right?)

You will also get your opportunity to accuse G-d to His face, and hold Him accountable for His actions which you find detestable. Whether He did them or not.

Just realize that at that time there won't be any room for the sun itself. Do you expect to be able to stand?
 
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norswede

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That's a pretty cruel thing to say. I could just as easily say that I'm looking forward to leaving behind all the arrogant, sarcastic atheists who claim that science disproves God but know less about science than Christians do about God.
 
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aiki

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I would strongly suggest that those posting on this thread pick up a copy of Paul Copan's "Is God a Moral Monster? Making Sense of the Old Testament God." It answers expertly and in great scholarly detail many of the tired, old, atheist challenges offered in this thread. Copan explains the cultural, theological and philosophical/ethical contexts within which to properly read and understand the acts of God in the Old Testament.

Selah.
 
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