I used to feel the same urgent Apocalyptic CERTAINTY some here feel

DavidPT · Nov 6, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
Well to those who think it is nonsense...Lord Jesus is coming. Maybe today!

If Pretrib is true, then that is a possibility. If Pretrib is not true, that is impossible, then.

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

DavidPT said:
If Pretrib is true, then that is a possibility. If Pretrib is not true, that is impossible, then.

The point is, if He comes today, will you be ready?

DavidPT · Nov 6, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
The point is, if He comes today, will you be ready?

I get that, except He can't literally come today unless Pretrib is true, or that the trib of those days are fulfilled first, followed by a time described in Luke 21:25-26. Matthew 24:29-31 alone already debunks Pretrib since the coming meant in verse 30 is not meaning before the trib, it is meaning after the trib. If that coming was meaning before the trib, Jesus would have said that before verse 15 not after.

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

DavidPT said:
I get that, except He can't literally come today unless Pretrib is true, or that the trib of those days are fulfilled first, followed by a time described in Luke 21:25-26. Matthew 24:29-31 alone already debunks Pretrib since the coming meant in verse 30 is not meaning before the trib, it is meaning after the trib. If that coming was meaning before the trib, Jesus would have said that before verse 15 not after.

You sidestepped my question.

3 Resurrections · Nov 6, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus, a large part of the being "ready" aspect for these prophecies coming to fulfillment was for the believers in Judea to be prepared for a literal and immediate "fleeing to the mountains", once they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", which Luke interpreted as being the "abomination of desolation". Those who were within the city of Jerusalem were to be ready to "come out of her", so that they would not share in the plagues that would come down on that city. Which "flight" to the mountains happened in late AD 66, prior to the "Great Tribulation" which lasted until Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70.

Christ warned the disciples to pray that they would be able to "escape" all those horrors by their fleeing Judea. Hopefully, that escape was not going to be in the wintertime during Judea's period of heaviest rainfall, and not on a Sabbath day, when the gates of Jerusalem would have been closed against their escape from the city. This is NOT a "flight" from Judea into the mountains that we today need to be ready for at Christ's next, THIRD coming in our future. And by all the patterns given in scripture, it will not be soon.

We have casualty records from that first century which show that approximately 1-1/4 million people DID believe Jesus' warning, and escaped Judea and Jerusalem's carnage by fleeing to Pella and other regions to wait out the war. After that AD 70 destruction of the city, a number of believers returned and formed another Christian assembly in Jerusalem, led by Symeon, a cousin of Christ, and the next bishop of the Jerusalem church. (in Epiphanius' and Eusebius' writings, and the casualty lists found in Ussher's Annals of the World).

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

Ecc. 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

RandyPNW · Nov 6, 2021

eclipsenow said:
I've been there. It was way back in 2004. The origins of my thinking were more secular, and scientific, as I had just joined an online group that was in a particularly scary part of the environmental movement. It almost operated like a secular cult.

This has to be "unpacked" properly. Yes, any kind of uninspired teaching can create trauma, of a sort. When we warn someone that a storm is coming, it may cause some trauma, but it is good trauma. It inspires preparation.

But our warnings have to come by God's Spirit, to inspire hope in God. Whatever bad may befall us, God is always pursuing our good, and His own glory.

This then is the difference: are we teaching the truth, and are we teaching it in the right spirit? I don't believe in Pretrib, but I do believe that what we read in the newspapers today, or read online, fits somehow with biblical prophecy.

We can certainly go too far, by fitting current events into supposedly "fulfilled prophecies." But historic events like the restoration of the State of Israel certainly have relevance. I just don't happen to think it was predicted in the Olivet Discourse.

But I think you're spot on. Predicting things out of a prophetic "enthusiasm" can go over the top, and damage people. We need to keep things within the realm of speculation and calm. And yes, we need to be balanced in the matter of any sense of divine "arbitrariness."

God pursues our good, but certainly does not trust us with clairvoyance. We need to always operate with a dependency on God's guidance, and be ready at all times to walk in His Spirit, rather than judge our obedience by circumstances.

DavidPT · Nov 6, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
You sidestepped my question.

He can't come today, though. That's impossible unless Pretrib is true. I do not believe Pretrib to be true. What you should be asking instead, if one were to die today, will you be ready to meet your Maker? What exactly would be the difference? If this same one were to die today, one gets to be with the Lord in that case, right? But if the Lord were to come today, but one is not ready though, this then equals one does not get to be with the Lord because they did not believe in a Pretrib rapture, thus were not anticipating it, thus they get left behind instead?

DavidPT · Nov 6, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Handmaid for Jesus, a large part of the being "ready" aspect for these prophecies coming to fulfillment was for the believers in Judea to be prepared for a literal and immediate "fleeing to the mountains", once they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", which Luke interpreted as being the "abomination of desolation". Those who were within the city of Jerusalem were to be ready to "come out of her", so that they would not share in the plagues that would come down on that city. Which "flight" to the mountains happened in late AD 66, prior to the "Great Tribulation" which lasted until Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70.

Christ warned the disciples to pray that they would be able to "escape" all those horrors by their fleeing Judea. Hopefully, that escape was not going to be in the wintertime during Judea's period of heaviest rainfall, and not on a Sabbath day, when the gates of Jerusalem would have been closed against their escape from the city. This is NOT a "flight" from Judea into the mountains that we today need to be ready for at Christ's next, THIRD coming in our future. And by all the patterns given in scripture, it will not be soon.

We have casualty records from that first century which show that approximately 1-1/4 million people DID believe Jesus' warning, and escaped Judea and Jerusalem's carnage by fleeing to Pella and other regions to wait out the war. After that AD 70 destruction of the city, a number of believers returned and formed another Christian assembly in Jerusalem, led by Symeon, a cousin of Christ, and the next bishop of the Jerusalem church. (in Epiphanius' and Eusebius' writings, and the casualty lists found in Ussher's Annals of the World).

I feel sad for some of you, that you're confused like this.. You all mean well, no doubt, yet, some of you are so far off on some of these things, it makes it next to impossible for some of you to ever get on the same page Jesus is on, in regards to some of these things.

RandyPNW · Nov 6, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
The point is, if He comes today, will you be ready?

That isn't the question unless you believe in Imminency Teaching, which is the unbiblical notion that Jesus can return *on any day.* Where in the Bible is it said that Jesus can come on "any day?" Nowhere.

We are told, however, to be prepared for Jesus' Coming every day, not as if he could come on any day, but that on every day we should live prepared for his eventual coming Kingdom. Learn the difference, and you'll know where Imminency Teachers have gone wrong.

There is *nowhere* in the Bible that indicates Christ can come on *any day.* The Father has set the appointed day, which cannot just randomly be "any day." It is preplanned to be on a *certain day.*

We don't even live as if he could come today, since that just isn't true. We live every day prepared for the coming Kingdom, whenever it may come.

Our object is not to try to anticipate exactly when it will come, but to recognize in our present circumstances how they relate to what God is doing prophetically. If circumstances warrant that persecution is coming, we need to be prepared to endure to the end.

One day soon, events will shape up to show us that Christ's coming is imminent. As always, we have to be prepared to live in righteousness in accordance with the circumstances we find ourselves in. In all cases, we live meeting the standards of God's Kingdom.

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

DavidPT said:
He can't come today, though.

He absolutely can come today.

DavidPT said:
That's impossible unless Pretrib is true.

It is you that says pretrib is not true.

DavidPT said:
I do not believe Pretrib to be true.

Exactly! But that does not mean that pretrib is false.

DavidPT said:
But if the Lord were to come today, but one is not ready though, this then equals one does not to get to be with the Lord because they did not believe in a Pretrib rapture, thus were not anticipating it, thus they get left behind instead?

So it is best to be ready.
1Thes. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

RandyPNW said:
We are told, however, to be prepared for Jesus' Coming every day, not as if he could come on any day, but that on every day we should live prepared for his eventual coming Kingdom. Learn the difference, and you'll know where Imminency Teachers have gone wrong.

Um... this is immenency. Every day is any day. There is no difference.

RandyPNW said:
There is *nowhere* in the Bible that indicates Christ can come on *any day.* The Father has set the appointed day, which cannot just randomly be "any day." It is preplanned to be on a *certain day.*

The time is appointed, true. But since we do not know when that is, and since we are told to await His coming, we must believe that He could come at a time we do not know. Could be today.

RandyPNW said:
We don't even live as if he could come today, since that just isn't true. We live every day prepared for the coming Kingdom, whenever it may come.

Could be today!

keras · Nov 6, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
So it is best to be ready.
1Thes. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The mistake that many make, is in assuming that Jesus meant His Return in this prophecy.
He didn't; it will be the Day He sends His fiery wrath to change the world and to commence all of the things so vividly described from Revelation 8 to the end.
It will be the Day, a literal 24 hour day, when our faith will be tested. 1 Peter 4:12
STAND STRONG and trust the Lord for His protection!

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

Do you people even WANT Lord Jesus to appear? It sounds like you don't.

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

keras said:
The mistake that many make, is in assuming that Jesus meant His Return in this prophecy.
He didn't; it will be the Day He sends His fiery wrath to change the world and to commence all of the things so vividly described from Revelation 8 to the end.
It will be the Day, a literal 24 hour day, when our faith will be tested. 1 Peter 4:12
STAND STRONG and trust the Lord for His protection!

Hi elder brother.Did you notice the CME that happened this past week?

DavidPT · Nov 6, 2021

keras said:
The mistake that many make, is in assuming that Jesus meant His Return in this prophecy.
He didn't; it will be the Day He sends His fiery wrath to change the world and to commence all of the things so vividly described from Revelation 8 to the end.
It will be the Day, a literal 24 hour day, when our faith will be tested. 1 Peter 4:12
STAND STRONG and trust the Lord for His protection!

What is your rationalization as to why that day would need to come like a thief in the night if it doesn't also involve His literal coming as well?

RandyPNW · Nov 6, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
Um... this is immenency. Every day is any day. There is no difference.

If you think preparing for a future Kingdom that is some years away is the same as preparing for a Kingdom that could come today, then you just don't recognize the argument.

Let me give you an illustration. Let's say I'm heir to a substantial amount of money. Well, I know both my parents will not be dead for a few years because of the likelihood of their living that long. But I live as if I will eventually inherit this money. It is clearly not the same as if I know both parents are going to get blown up any moment caught up in a warzone.

We know we're going to inherit Christ's Kingdom some years off in the future, and we live with that in mind, storing up spiritual treasures for that future day. And we do this *every day,* knowing that every day counts in the matter of storing up treasures.

However, this is not the same thing as expecting Christ's Kingdom to come *at any moment!* This would raise anxiety and confusion, because the circumstances do not dictate this.

On the contrary, circumstances dictate that much more needs to be done in our lives and ministries, in preparation for the Kingdom. And prophecy dictates that Antichrist must come first, consolidating an age-long process of religious growth followed by spiritual decline.

Handmaid for Jesus said:
The time is appointed, true. But since we do not know when that is, and since we are told to await His coming, we must believe that He could come at a time we do not know. Could be today.
Could be today!

Not at all. Our lack of knowledge about the precise day and hour of Christ's coming does not cause us to expect him today! It is the environment of the final Antichrist that will awaken us to an imminent expectation, not just an ignorance of knowing the precise day!

While it is true we don't know the precise day, this isn't for the purpose of expecting him every day! On the contrary, we aren't told the "times and the seasons" so that we live by every word of God, rather than by some prescient gift. We are to live by walking in the Spirit, doing what we must do today, rather than planning everything alone, as if we are in charge of the future.

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

RandyPNW said:
If you think preparing for a future Kingdom that is some years away is the same as preparing for a Kingdom that could come today, then you just don't recognize the argument.

I will not argue. How are you so sure the Kingdom of Heaven is some years away?

RandyPNW · Nov 6, 2021

Handmaid for Jesus said:
Do you people even WANT Lord Jesus to appear? It sounds like you don't.

Rather, what you should want is to be biblically accurate and to please God. It isn't our choice to follow a doctrine you propose is more "loving" with respect to Christ's coming. It is more "loving" towards God to obey Him, to be a good student, and to teach what He would have us to teach.

Christ is coming, and we all love that. But we should want him to come in the right context, even if we *wish* it could be sooner. We need to "man up" and face what necessarily precedes his Coming. That's why he taught his disciples not to expect an imminent return, but to rather, prepare to endure, and to rejoice in the midst of suffering, knowing that he is soon coming to relieve us.

Luke 19.11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.... 26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

Jesus here taught his disciples not to expect an imminent Kingdom, but rather, one that demands a level of endurance. His Kingdom will come in judgment, in the context of continuing rebellion against God. God's people, therefore, are to expect trouble and persecution, and should prepare to endure, well before any expectation that he is coming "imminently," or might come "today."

Equally important in this lesson is the understanding not that our work might be suddenly interrupted, but that we are to expect an amount of time to prepare for the Kingdom, to minister to Jesus in ways conducive to the ministry of the Gospel. We are bearing a testimony to the world, and before judgment can come, we must give that testimony first!

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 6, 2021

RandyPNW said:
Equally important in this lesson is the understanding not that our work might be suddenly interrupted, but that we are to expect an amount of time to prepare for the Kingdom, to minister to Jesus in ways conducive to the ministry of the Gospel. We are bearing a testimony to the world, and before judgment can come, we must give that testimony first!

Time to prepare is now since we do not know when our Lord will come. Satan always says you have time. But he cannot tell you how much time you have got.

I used to feel the same urgent Apocalyptic CERTAINTY some here feel

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