I tried that. It didn't work. Got anything else?

[aiki]

Romans 6:12-13
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

​

The Bible is really clear about the necessity of walking with God in humility and submission, consciously giving God control of oneself at every turn. There simply isn't any other way to enjoy fellowship with God. He's GOD: infinite, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, perfect in holiness and wisdom, the Ground of all Reality and Truth. God only interacts with us as He is, which means we are always the inferior in our relationship to Him, the one being led, the one yielding and submitting, the one obeying and serving. God only ever leads us.

Why do I point this out? Well, lately I've been talking with some Christian guys about the crucified life, the life of surrender to which God calls all of His children. When I've explained to them the enormous benefits of each day being a "living sacrifice" to God (Romans 12:1), the victory over sin this life produces, the growing love and intimacy with God that results from always being under His control, yielded to His will and way, the response of these fellows has been, "I already tried that. It didn't work."

Implicit in this response is, of course, the thinking that, since it didn't "work" (aka "meet my expectations") to live in surrender to God, doing so may be abandoned. If a yielded life doesn't "work," why would should one bother with it? But this makes a huge mistake: Surrender to God is optional. It's absolutely not - not if one wants to walk in joyful, fruitful, transformative fellowship with God. We don't have the option to walk with God apart from constant submission to His will and way; whether we think doing so works in the way we expect it to or not, walking humbly with God is a non-negotiable of the Christian life.

I was astonished, then, when these Christian guys essentially admitted to living lives persistently outside of God's control. They didn't realize, of course, to what they were admitting. When we are saved but not submitted, we may be God's child, adopted by Him into His family, but we cannot be in fellowship with Him. Intimate communion with God rests upon, springs out of, our being constantly, consciously yielded to Him. When we are saved but not submitted, we are living in disobedience to God who has commanded us repeatedly in His word to die to ourselves, to live under His will and way, to be "living sacrifices" for His use. When we are saved but not submitted, we cannot experience the transformative work of the Holy Spirit within us. God never forces us to change but in every step we take with Him, waits upon our conscious agreement, our surrender, to Him. When we are saved but not submitted, we must substitute our effort for God's. Because God's filling of us with Himself and all the amazing things that He is rests upon our submission to Him, when we are not submitted, we have only our own human resources from which to attempt to produce a Christ-like life. The best we can do, though, is to manufacture short-lived, superficial change that doesn't ever take us deeper into knowledge and experience of God, but only of ourselves and our profound weakness. And so on.

As I probed into what these Christian guys meant by "didn't work," it came to light that they had certain expectations of the results of their submission to God that didn't occur. Here are a couple:

When I submit,

God's control of me will be immediate and total. He will overcome instantly all my desires, habits, and ignorance and move me irresistibly into His will and way.

God's taking such radical control of me will be unmistakable.

This thinking assumes God's control is that of a sort of Divine Puppeteer. What these guys meant when they said to God, "I submit myself to your will and way," was actually, "God force me into the life you want me to live." But we can't love God - which is His First and Great Commandment to us (Matthew 22:36-38) - under such a circumstance. Love can't be compelled. Since we express our love for God in obedience to Him, in a life lived to His glory, for Him to move us puppet-like into such a life would violate the love-relationship with Him that we have and that He has made paramount in our walk with Him.

God, then, won't answer a prayer of submission to Him with coercion. Instead, God's control is always in tandem with my constant agreement to it. As result, the moment after I've surrendered to God in the heat of spiritual battle against some sinful practice I've formed, the desire to follow that sinful habit may rise again. If I'm to move from this new instant of temptation further into God's will and way, I must submit to Him again, by faith trusting Him to move me by His power into freedom - whether I can discern Him doing so or not. This act of submission may be repeated several times in rapid succession - as often as the desire to follow my sinful way rather than God's confronts me. But it is in the midst of my persistent submission to Him that God is free to alter me, conforming me to His will and way.

Many Christians I've met, struggling with sin, want God simply to eradicate in an instant every vestige of sinful desire that is in them. God has the power to do so, right? And surely God wants them living sin-free. They want this, too, so God should just zap them and totally change them forever, permanently freeing them from all inclination to sin.

What they really want, though, is freedom from sin without fellowship with God; they want liberty from guilt; relief, perhaps, from fear, from the bother of constantly focusing on God, from the humiliation of their own sinful weakness, not a deeper knowledge and experience of God. The path of least resistance is the human default; humans take the easiest course whenever possible. Choosing God again and again, then, submitting to Him over and over in everything? Why won't God just make me so I don't ever want anything but what He wants right away? That would be a lot easier, wouldn't it? See above.

What's your expectation of what it is to walk humbly with God, to live under His control? Are you praying for freedom but not fellowship, for compulsion rather than cooperation? I hope and pray not.

 

[ripple the car]

I have found that it’s a journey, and that my emotional enthusiasm is not always (or even ever) a result of the Holy Spirit. I think without meaning to, Wesleyan theology has done a lot of harm. The emotionalism, the emphasis on crisis conversions, the expectation of total sanctification thanks to a moment of sincere faith, the expectation of sinless perfectionism…

 

[Dave L]

I have found that it’s a journey, and that my emotional enthusiasm is not always (or even ever) a result of the Holy Spirit. I think without meaning to, Wesleyan theology has done a lot of harm. The emotionalism, the emphasis on crisis conversions, the expectation of total sanctification thanks to a moment of sincere faith, the expectation of sinless perfectionism…

Glad you escaped. It's the worst type of spiritual bondage I've experienced.

 

[ripple the car]

Glad you escaped. It's the worst type of spiritual bondage I've experienced.

Thanks, Dave. I’m no longer “on fire”, but the slowly burning little embers give off more heat and light long-term, anyway.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

I use to want a brain wipe. It'd be easier not remembering all the memories I've acquired over years of sinning. I'm past it now but my sinful past is waiting in the eaves to elevate itself to dominance.

 

[aiki]

I should explain that the work of a believer isn't to submit to God and then rush forward in a moment of temptation to suppress their own carnal desires, to corral their sinful habits, to fight against themselves. My "work" as a believer is to remain submitted, not strive to be godly by my own efforts. God will move me by His own power in His direction so long as I continue to yield myself to Him. Only His power is sufficient to transform me, after all. I cannot remediate myself. (Romans 7:15-24; Philippians 2:13; Ephesians 3:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, etc.)

What I find as I live in submission to God is that I am moved along by God from a crossroads of choice/temptation so subtly and profoundly that I often don't realize its happened. I sometimes find myself these days worried and anxious about the future, fearful and stressed-out, and when I realize this is the case and recognize in my fear that God is not in control, that such fear manifests me, not God, I submit to Him again. I don't try to push down the fear, or argue myself into a better frame of mind, or distract myself. I just yield myself to God's will and way and continue to pray this way 'til He assuages my fear. What usually happens, though, is, an hour later, free of fear the entire time, do I realize He's changed me. This is my experience again and again as I live in submission to God. Not a wrenching, strenuous battle with myself, exhausting and stumbling, but the imperceptible, natural growth of a tree branch, expanding and bearing fruit, not by its own efforts, but by the life-giving sap of the Tree. (John 15:4-5)

 

[aiki]

I use to want a brain wipe.

As a young man, I often prayed for this, too.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

I've learned to let the Holy Spirit guide me to which sin is next on the list to overcome.

 

[Dave L]

I use to want a brain wipe. It'd be easier not remembering all the memories I've acquired over years of sinning. I'm past it now but my sinful past is waiting in the eaves to elevate itself to dominance.

I feel the same. But this one verse helps.

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” Isaiah 1:18 (KJV 1900)

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” Isaiah 1:18 (KJV 1900)

Or that verse about girding up your loins and I'll speak to you as a man. "O-o-oo-ka--y."...(grovel, grovel).

 

[dzheremi]

I'm just going to leave this here in the hope that someone who is struggling with sin and returning to God (as I myself am constantly; it's not a one-time decision or declaration, but the entire struggle of life) may find it edifying.

If you watch it you will notice, I hope, that was is preached here by HH Pope Shenouda III of thrice-blessed memory is not "God, wipe my brain like a computer that needs to be reformatted" or whatever, but rather "God, give me strength from You to do what I cannot do by my own will." I don't know anyone who is serious about their Christianity who wants to continue to sin, and yet we do exactly that, so what else can be the remedy? If no less a figure than the holy St. Paul very publicly writes of his own struggle, then I should hope no one is shocked that this struggle has continued in the holy men and women throughout all the ages, as it will until the Lord Jesus Christ returns in His glory to judge the living and the dead.

It is the struggle itself that is transformative, just as iron is forged in fire. There is no saint of any era who is celebrated for their easy life of complacency and slothfulness, and nor should there ever be. So I see the desire to simply be 'blanked' as not only spiritually immature (though understandable, for sure), but also actually contrary to the life we are called to live, which is characterized by complete submission to God.

 

[royal priest]

There is a point at which we need to recognize God's Providence behind our inconsistency. Without sin and temptation God's people could not learn repentance, or perseverance. Many NT lessons come from the myriad of examples of God's severe or merciful dealings with His sinning people. The temptations that leave us sore are used by God to perfect our faith. And our disgraceful sins are a constant reminder to us that the well of the Savior's blood never runs dry. Imagine how much greater God's praise will be in eternity because of each faltering step He forgave. Glory be to God!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

This is such a great thread. As an unsaved person, trying to get saved, i’d like to address my concerns about this. Heres how this has been for me, i am convicted of sin, i try to repent, i question my sincerity, then i pray to God to take away my evil desire. That may work for like 10 mins, then the desire is back. Then i question if my faith is strong enough, so i try harder this time, i close both eyes this time while praying, and the cycle continues. On and on, day by day.

what i keep hearing is, we cant do anything good. Only the Holy Spirit in us can let us do good. Problem… my evil desires arent going away, even for a day. So i think ok, God hasnt saved me like i asked for the 10 billionth time, so im gonna force my salvation, im gonna force myself to do good. Then 3 days later, my evil desires cannot be ignored, and its like sinning spree happens where the floodgates are opened, and the sin overtakes everything. This is my life. There is no joy, no assurance, and yet, i keep trying to do everything that others say to try. Nothing seems to work. And it is VERY easy to get frustrated with this in short order.

this is why i say getting salvation is the toughest thing i ever tried. And quite frankly, it can create some jealousy inside of me to see the rest of you having that salvation, talking about how great life is, and how you have all this freedom now that you didnt use to.

im not ranting, even though i suppose it sounds like i am. Its just i feel like if God did just take away my evil, things would be happier for both of us. And dont even get me started on free will.

 

[royal priest]

This is such a great thread. As an unsaved person, trying to get saved, i’d like to address my concerns about this. Heres how this has been for me, i am convicted of sin, i try to repent, i question my sincerity, then i pray to God to take away my evil desire. That may work for like 10 mins, then the desire is back. Then i question if my faith is strong enough, so i try harder this time, i close both eyes this time while praying, and the cycle continues. On and on, day by day.

what i keep hearing is, we cant do anything good. Only the Holy Spirit in us can let us do good. Problem… my evil desires arent going away, even for a day. So i think ok, God hasnt saved me like i asked for the 10 billionth time, so im gonna force my salvation, im gonna force myself to do good. Then 3 days later, my evil desires cannot be ignored, and its like sinning spree happens where the floodgates are opened, and the sin overtakes everything. This is my life. There is no joy, no assurance, and yet, i keep trying to do everything that others say to try. Nothing seems to work. And it is VERY easy to get frustrated with this in short order.

this is why i say getting salvation is the toughest thing i ever tried. And quite frankly, it can create some jealousy inside of me to see the rest of you having that salvation, talking about how great life is, and how you have all this freedom now that you didnt use to.

im not ranting, even though i suppose it sounds like i am. Its just i feel like if God did just take away my evil, things would be happier for both of us. And dont even get me started on free will.

Desire to sin will follow us until death. The ability to say no to that desire might increase. Neither the lack of such desire nor ability to say no to such desire means we are saved. The evidence of salvation is the fight we put up against such desire and the reason for it: love for God and neighbor. Salvation is not performance based, but trust based. We trust that God will have mercy on us in spite of our failures. We trust in the performance of Jesus who died for sin and forgives sin.
Yes, fight against sin with all your might. But don't do it because you think it will save you. Do it because you love Jesus and because your sin nailed Him to the tree.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

Lifelong_sinner, Lay it all at Jesus' feet. We all stumble and fall short of the glory of God. There is a good reason why flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and indeed cannot please God. Everything through our High Priest Jesus Christ. This is why He was scourged and nailed to the tree, his righteousness covers our sins. Read the Sermon on the Mt. and strive for those traits. Much peace to you.

 

[aiki]

This is such a great thread. As an unsaved person, trying to get saved,

If you've got a ruptured appendix that needs removing, can you do anything to help the surgeon whose going to take it out of you? Nope. You just lie unconscious on the operating table and receive the work of the surgeon on your behalf. That's it. You can't help yourself, which is why you've come to the surgeon in the first place.

This is how it is when we come to God to be saved from ourselves. Morally, we have a "ruptured appendix" and its killing us. So, we go to the Great Physician, Jesus Christ, and receive from him his healing work which he did for us on the cross. That's it. By faith, you receive his life, his power, his redemption of you from your sin. His saving work was perfect; there's not the least little bit you can add to it to make it better. So, there's no trying to be saved. Salvation isn't ours by trying but by believing. Read Romans 10:9-10; Ephesians 2:1-9; 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Heres how this has been for me, i am convicted of sin, i try to repent, i question my sincerity, then i pray to God to take away my evil desire. That may work for like 10 mins, then the desire is back. Then i question if my faith is strong enough, so i try harder this time, i close both eyes this time while praying, and the cycle continues. On and on, day by day.

Yup. A pretty common experience, unfortunately. Unnecessary, though. Read my OP.

Problem… my evil desires arent going away, even for a day.

Usually, it isn't the desire that's the problem, if it is one of the natural, physical desires God has given to us - the desire for sex, or for food, or what-have-you - but our distortion and gratification of that desire outside of the bounds God has set for them and apart from His divine control. There's nothing wrong with having a strong sexual interest, for example. It is attending to that sexual desire in a way God has prohibited that is the problem. Praying for God to eradicate that desire, a desire He intended you should have, is to pray against God's design - a prayer to which God will answer, "No."

So i think ok, God hasnt saved me like i asked for the 10 billionth time, so im gonna force my salvation, im gonna force myself to do good. Then 3 days later, my evil desires cannot be ignored, and its like sinning spree happens where the floodgates are opened, and the sin overtakes everything. This is my life. There is no joy, no assurance, and yet, i keep trying to do everything that others say to try. Nothing seems to work. And it is VERY easy to get frustrated with this in short order.

Yup. Been there, done that. It's why I write what I have on this subforum. I'm hoping to help people like you, in particular, to step out of such a miserable experience.

You can't force yourself to be godly. You are the problem (Romans 7:15-24; Romans 8:7). You can't be godly; you can only be you. Only God can make you godly, make you like Christ. And He will only in tandem with your submission to Him throughout each day. This was the point of my OP to this thread. To the degree you fight and struggle against yourself, to that same degree you are relying on you, on your power, not on God, to free you from the power of sin. This approach to being a disciple of Christ won't work - as you're finding out. As Paul wrote in Philippians 2:13, it is God who works in us both to desire to do, and to do, His will. We are just too weak, by ourselves, to change ourselves. And God doesn't need our strength, our effort, to change us, only our agreement, our submission, to His doing so.

this is why i say getting salvation is the toughest thing i ever tried. And quite frankly, it can create some jealousy inside of me to see the rest of you having that salvation, talking about how great life is, and how you have all this freedom now that you didnt use to.

Believe me, I understand.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

You can't force yourself to be godly. You are the problem (Romans 7:15-24; Romans 8:7). You can't be godly; you can only be you. Only God can make you godly, make you like Christ. And He will only in tandem with your submission to Him throughout each day. This was the point of my OP to this thread. To the degree you fight and struggle against yourself, to that same degree you are relying on you, on your power, not on God, to free you from the power of sin. This approach to being a disciple of Christ won't work - as you're finding out.

i dont understand. I can sit on my sofa, pray to God, and say, Lord, you’re the driver, im the passenger, take me wherever you want. And yet, nothing happens. I dont know how to fully submit to Him, i suppose. How is this done exactly??

 

[pescador]

This is such a great thread. As an unsaved person, trying to get saved, i’d like to address my concerns about this. Heres how this has been for me, i am convicted of sin, i try to repent, i question my sincerity, then i pray to God to take away my evil desire. That may work for like 10 mins, then the desire is back. Then i question if my faith is strong enough, so i try harder this time, i close both eyes this time while praying, and the cycle continues. On and on, day by day.

what i keep hearing is, we cant do anything good. Only the Holy Spirit in us can let us do good. Problem… my evil desires arent going away, even for a day. So i think ok, God hasnt saved me like i asked for the 10 billionth time, so im gonna force my salvation, im gonna force myself to do good. Then 3 days later, my evil desires cannot be ignored, and its like sinning spree happens where the floodgates are opened, and the sin overtakes everything. This is my life. There is no joy, no assurance, and yet, i keep trying to do everything that others say to try. Nothing seems to work. And it is VERY easy to get frustrated with this in short order.

this is why i say getting salvation is the toughest thing i ever tried. And quite frankly, it can create some jealousy inside of me to see the rest of you having that salvation, talking about how great life is, and how you have all this freedom now that you didnt use to.

im not ranting, even though i suppose it sounds like i am. Its just i feel like if God did just take away my evil, things would be happier for both of us. And dont even get me started on free will.

Stop trying and enter into God's rest. It really works!

Read your Bible and thank God in prayer for the blessings that you have received from Him. 1 Timothy 2:4, "[God] wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

 

[Blade]

I like this.. we are to reckon two things. 1 that the old man has died and the sinful nature has been rendered powerless. 2 that we are alive unto God new life has been imparted to us. The term reckon is a mathematical term it means to count compute to take into account. The believer is to take into account the fact that he is dead to sin, that he is set free from the old evil nature that he has been brought into new life and that being a new creation 2 cor 5:17 he can live above the desire to sin. When a sinner believes in Christ he receives a new heart and becomes a new creature. He is under new management. So when we reckon out selfs dead to sin we are free from it. Death breaks sins dominion. The presence of sin is not removed that will take place when salvation is complete on resurrection day. But while sin is still present it is powerless except by a deliberate act of the persons will. This IS good news.....

Eph.. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that you put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This new man can not sin. Why Paul said.. "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. If we read what was written above Rom 6 12 "What should we say then? Should we continue to sin so that God’s kindness(grace)will increase? That’s unthinkable! As far as sin is concerned, we have died." Did we catch that? "So how can we still live under sin’s influence?" Keep reading.. Christ died.. we died "We know that the person we used to be was crucified with him to put an end to sin in our bodies. Because of this we are no longer slaves to sin. The person who has died has been freed from sin."

We are in right standing with God "Righteousness". That righteousness comes from believing in Christ Jesus. For me this one of the hardest things for me to see. Well once the lord said "I Know its been hard a struggle for you to go from the natural to the supernatural". Ya think? Lol.. this is all we see..yet this is not the truth.

So we can walk in the new man which is free from sin.. its why its written "Whoever has been born of God does not sin (practice), for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Anyway.. so so so much more to this. A fact Christ died.. we died. Christ rose we rose. We can choose to walk in the old man or the new. We have been set free from sin and who the son sets free is free indeed.

 

[aiki]

i dont understand. I can sit on my sofa, pray to God, and say, Lord, you’re the driver, im the passenger, take me wherever you want. And yet, nothing happens. I dont know how to fully submit to Him, i suppose. How is this done exactly??

What do you think is supposed to happen? God nowhere in His word obliges Himself to do something overt, something you can feel or see, in response to your prayer of submission. Instead, His response, typically, will be to move you in His direction, but with the subtlety and naturalness of the growth of a branch out from the trunk of a tree. Progressively, as you persist in submitting to God whenever you arrive at a crossroads of choice between your way and His, you will find yourself thinking and behaving in accord with God's will. There won't be any fireworks, no obvious transformation of you in a single instant; just the gradual, profound change of your desires, thinking and conduct that God has promised to you in His word.

Because the change God is working in you as you live in submission to Him each day is usually quite imperceptible, without the usual horrible contortions we go through whenever we try to change ourselves by our own power for God, we must, by faith, trust He is at work as He has promised to be. This is, in part, why Paul wrote we "walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 5:7) God is so powerful that He can change us while we remain unaware that He is. Often only in looking back do we see that He has kept His promise to transform us.

Anyway, one submits to God:

1. Consciously.
2. Persistently.
3. Frequently.

Myself, I simply say to God, "I submit to you. I yield to your will and way in this moment. Do as you will with me." Or some variation of this statement. Sometimes, when I am tempted strongly, I must confirm my submission to God repeatedly, as often as the impulse to go my own way arises. At one point, I caught myself saying to God, "Control me. Make me who you want me to be. Change my thinking and behaviour." Immediately, I was struck by how bossy I was being with God. I was telling God what to do! Yikes. It was a lot easier to do this, though, than to say, "I submit to your will and way." Interesting, that. Anyway, submitting to God is simple, but often complicated by faulty expectations of what will happen when we do submit - as I explained in my OP.