I thought I had them at the flood, but...

Dorothy Mae · Aug 20, 2018

Valetic said:
I just have one question.

Why would God let Moses record them and let it remain in the Torah if it were not true?

My understanding is that the myths around when Moses was writing were completely different. A main message of Genesis is that God is separate from creation. Creation is not an extension of Him. Myths did. Genesis says man was created to walk with God. Myths says man was made to serve the needs and caprices of the gods. Very different.

I think people forget God talked to Moses face to face as a man talks to his friend. They don’t think about WHAT they talked about.

MartyF · Aug 20, 2018

The Barbarian said:
Nope. Didn't say that.

You obviously didn't understand. The Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah section is the summary of what you wrote.

I want to see replication of an ape evolving into a human before I even bother listening to the pile coming out from you about evolution. Evolution = your teapot which you believe in and I don't. If you don't know what a teapot is look up Russell's Teapot on Wikipedia. Learn something.

Hopefully, that's clearer to you. And yes, I really didn't bother reading it, because you aren't going to present anything new and you think I'm wrong and I know you're wrong. So what's the point?

Marty

Blade · Aug 20, 2018

My dad use to LOVE to show the person living behind us (7th day Adv) his 6 mil ROCK pig skull. I look at this and really dont care what so ever.. WE man 6000k. NOw the earth? WOW could have been here BILLIONS of years. We dont know.. and mans way of showing the AGE is NEVER correct.. its a awful best guess

The Barbarian · Aug 20, 2018

Barbarian chuckles:
The Barbarian said: ↑
Nope. Didn't say that.

MartyF said:
You obviously didn't understand.

Everyone understands. You claimed I said things that I did not. It's a really bad tactic. Avoid it in the future.

The Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah section is the summary of what you wrote.

That wasn't the only misrepresentation. You made several specific claims that are false as well.

I want to see replication of an ape evolving into a human before I even bother listening to the pile coming out from you about evolution.

So you won't believe that giant redwood trees can grow from seeds unless someone can show you it happen? Seriously?

But you're wrong about that, too. Evolution is merely a change in allele frequency in a population over time. Humans evolving from other hominids is a consequence of the fact of evolution.

And yes, I really didn't bother reading it, because you aren't going to present anything new and you think I'm wrong and I know you're wrong. So what's the point?

How about letting people who actually want to discuss it, do that, then? You'll get more respect that way.

The Barbarian · Aug 20, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Well the only help I can give is that scientists are not at all unbiased. And way too many are far from honest.

As you know, scientists are more honest than most people. The reason is that their data and research are available to anyone reading their articles, which gives them a very solid reason to be honest.

I can assure you, for example, that dead animals in a lab away from acid rain will decay.

Which is what happens to the vast majority of vertebrates that die. But not all of them. The Karoo formation in Africa has billions of fossils that gradually accumulated at the delta of several rivers.

I work with scientists and the group they least trust are other scientists. I’d be cautious in trusting them.

Guess how I know you don't actually know many scientists.

Reminds me of the “carbon footprint” scare

I don't think you know what that word means.

and I wondered if any of those scientists took grade school biology where one learns that the plants need CO2 to survive and there are whole lot more leaves than people.

In almost all cases, carbon dioxide is not the limiting nutrient in plants. So more CO2 won't give you more food. The other misconception is that leaves are the main issue. The majority of carbon exchange happens in the oceans.

MartyF · Aug 20, 2018

The Barbarian said:
Everyone understands. You claimed I said things that I did not. It's a really bad tactic. Avoid it in the future.

No I did not.

And who said I cared about tactics? This is just a game to you and I'm not going to waste the time. I'm just waiting for you to put me on ignore.

The Barbarian said:
So you won't believe that giant redwood trees can grow from seeds unless someone can show you it happen? Seriously?

You bet.

The Barbarian said:
How about letting people who actually want to discuss it, do that, then?

I didn't butt into your conversation. You butted into mine. I just said that I wasn't interested into listening you, but you insist whether I want it or not. I guess that's the barbarian in you.

And no I don't care about the respect of people on the forum. I don't feel the need to post to boost my ego like you do. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I have far more important things happening in my real life.

Marty

The Barbarian · Aug 20, 2018

Barbarian observes:
Everyone understands. You claimed I said things that I did not. It's a really bad tactic. Avoid it in the future.

MartyF said:
No I did not.

Well, let's take a look...

MartyF said:
A brief summary of what you wrote.
Ape evolve into human.

I didn't say that in the post.

Replicate.

I didn't say that in the post, either. You just made up those things, and pretended that I said them. That simple.

You're either illiterate or you worship lies.

See above. Anyone who wants to look can go see that you made up those things. I never mentioned either of them in my post.

And who said I cared about tactics?

Honesty isn't just the best policy; it's what a Christian should embrace. Try to do better.

This is just a stupid game to you and I'm not going to waste the time.

Truth isn't a game.

I'm just waiting for you to pull a Trigglypuff and put me on ignore.

It's going to be a long wait, I think. I'm a very patient guy.

I didn't butt into you conversation. You butted into mine.

Guess why they call them "forums." If you toss out something here, it's for everyone to see and comment on, if they like.

I just said that I wasn't interested into listening to your pile, but you insist that you have be able to shove it down my throat whether I want it or not.

If you don't want to see my comments, there's always ignore. So long as we follow the rules, we get to comment on whatever comes up here. I like that.

I guess that's the barbarian in you.

Well, you know how libertarian barbarians are. Would you like to learn how I got the name? It's an amusing story.

And no I don't care about the respect of people on the forum. I don't feel the need to post to boost my ego like you do.

Well, that's a good thing. It surely isn't doing that for you.

I have far more important things happening in my real life.

That's good. You want to stay involved with others, and make yourself useful. Usefulness is the most important thing for one's mental health, I think.

I just finished up paving the front porch...

MartyF · Aug 20, 2018

MartyF said:
The Barbarian said:

Blah.blah, blah, blah, blah blah,

blah.

Click to expand...

A brief summary of what you wrote.

Ape evolve into human.

Replicate.

That simple.

If you can't do it, I don't want a description of how beautiful your fictional teapot is.

Your writing shows absolutely no understanding - only regurgitated Atheist myth.

Marty

This is what I said. Just like everyone else. The comments refer to the post above.

"A brief summary of what you wrote." refers to the blah, blah, blah above it.

"Ape evolve into human.

Replicate.

That simple.

If you can't do it, I don't want a description of how beautiful your fictional teapot is."

The above clearly shows what I want to done before listening about your stupid teapot. Hey, if you want to continue to be a harridan and lie about me go ahead. I'm sorry I wrote above your head. I didn't realize you would be someone so quick to judge.

The Barbarian said:
It's going to be a long wait, I think. I'm a very patient guy.

Lol, Trolls generally are.

The Barbarian said:
Honesty isn't just the best policy; it's what a Christian should embrace. Try to do better.

Oh, oh, lemme try.

Not raping children isn't just the best policy; it's what a Christian should embrace. You should try to do better.

The Barbarian said:
How about letting people who actually want to discuss it, do that, then?

The Barbarian said:
So long as we follow the rules, we get to comment on whatever comes up here.

Cognitive dissonance?

Marty

The Barbarian · Aug 20, 2018

Sounds like you're getting too worked up.

MartyF said:
The above clearly shows what I want to done before listening about your stupid teapot.

I don't have one, myself, but here's my wife's teapot.
View attachment 238535
I'm not very fond of hot tea, myself.

Hey, if you want to continue to be a harridan and lie about me go ahead.

You shouldn't have claimed I said things I didn't.

BTW, I don't think you know what "harridan" means. You might want to look it up.

Job 33:6 · Aug 20, 2018

Valetic said:
I'm a young earth creationist since a few months ago but today after doing further research on the geologic column it would appear I have met my match. Creationists have tried to explain how the flood could have separated neatly all the fossils consistently across the world between each layer of the geologic column, but it seems the geologic column actually does support an old earth theory because of this, especially since it separates both plants and animals of the same species correctly within each layer.

I thought I had escaped the science of macro evolution through Noah and the flood but now I am back at square one unsure of the age of the earth and whether the creation story is really just a myth. It's really terrible for me because creationism really strengthened my faith in the bible and I know it doesn't really have anything to do with the gospel of Jesus either but I guess I just got my hopes up.

I guess the only thing I'm still holding on to is that night I believe I met Jesus.

Assuming you are being genuine in this post...

I remember when I first began studying the earth. I felt torn and deeply hurt at first. But ultimately I think that, coming to understand geology strengthened my faith. Because it really does open up a real mind blowing expansion of understanding of creation. Once the foundation is properly set, it allows for the understanding of a grand expanse of information, and it really brings clarity and depth to our understanding of how God created. And I think it is a special gift that our Lord has given us, that we may have knowledge of His creation. And not everyone will have the chance to witness this. Many people in the world wont have the education, many wont have the sources of information they need to understand. So it really is a gift.

And of course the gospel of Jesus is something that transcends any scientific debate. The grace of Christ is so vast and grand. Nothing will ever change what He has done for us.

Job 33:6 · Aug 20, 2018

Doctor.Sphinx said:
I find it hard to believe you ever were a YEC if you believe that the fossil records we have could have eventuated through time, chance, and thousands/millions of years. Sudden and catastrophic burial is the only way to explain what is found.

There are a number of examples where plants or animals are found in the "wrong" layer of the fossil record, if one assumes the fossil records were generated over long ages. These examples disprove this assumption, leaving only the Great Flood to explain them.

What animals have been found in any "wrong" layer?

Job 33:6 · Aug 20, 2018

Valetic said:
Is there a source where we can see where a lot of the fossils were in each of the layers where they were discovered? And with more than one specimen in a different part of the world that was in a different layer more than once? This is what you were telling me is the case of the fossil record but pretty much everything I learned about the geological column since I was a kid told me that we find these dinosaur fossils in this layer of dirt and this dinosaur fossil in the next layer and so on and so forth. I can see why they would lie in the textbooks but that's just it I want to know if they're lying and I want to see the truth not necessarily to expose them unless necessary but then I may have a defense when people question the authority of the Bible because of evolution or an old Earth worldview. The main goal I have is to defend the Bible and to plant the seed of Christ. But I can't do that with knowledge and or theories with loopholes such as this.

Your best bet is to buy a book on paleontology and google the actual research papers on the fossils discussed.

https://www.amazon.com/Story-Life-25-Fossils-Evolution/dp/0231171900
https://www.amazon.com/Bringing-Fossils-Life-Introduction-Paleobiology/dp/0073661708
https://www.amazon.com/Your-Inner-Fish-Journey-3-5-Billion-Year/dp/0307277453

use google scholar and lookup the fossils, then look at the listed formation.

But really, geology is just as important.

https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Rock...ding+the+rocks+the+autobiography+of+the+earth

https://www.amazon.com/Cosmos-Carl-...=1534821312&sr=1-2&keywords=cosmos+carl+sagan

And you can even pickup a book on geology of wherever you live, and you can go find fossils yourself. Just google it, and go see what you find, connect the dots and see what is real for yourself.

joshua 1 9 · Aug 20, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
The universe and earth pre-existed Genesis 1:1.

If you study the Hebrew letters that makes up the first word in the Bible: Beginning. we see that God sent his Son to be a Grain offering. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."

Eph1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Some Christians believe that we were with God before the beginning of the world. God spoke us into being from the beginning. Isa 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Job 33:6 · Aug 20, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
One of my favorite things to use in arguing about the world wide flood is the approx 30 million Woolly Mammoths, Rhinoceroses and other mammals buried in the permafrost in Siberia. How on earth do bury a whole continent's worth of animals in mud but a giant world wide flood? (Oh a giant asteroid!!!) Yeah right. Anything to avoid the obvious. For a hundred years secular scientists said there has never been a catastrophic world wide event that caused the mass extinction of animals. Then a few decades ago, all of a sudden catastrophicsim is all in vogue in the tabloid science world. Just as long as it is any catastrophic event that does not include a world wide flood that is.
Anyway, let me get off my podium and back to the subject. In the early part of the last century they mined 20,000 Woolly Mammoth tusks out of one mine alone.
Here is a more modern article I had read on the subject. It claims 150 million Mammoths but it is referring to the modern ivory trade and how it is hoped Woolly Mammoth Ivory will satisfy the markets demands for illegal ivory.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-50-000-save-threatened-African-elephant.html

I suspect that the 150 million number is inaccurate.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...east-siberia/27ED09ABFB82CD74DAD7589EBB5432A5

published research appears to suggest the numbers in the 100 thousands and its not just mammoths but its a plethora of animals.

Regardless, if you have tens of thousands of years of fossilized bones, then its not hard to imagine how say...10 million might become fossilized. Say we have 20,000 years and 1 million fossils. Thats only 50 animals per year being frozen in an area that spans hundreds of thousands of square miles (all of northern russia and alaska). Which is nothing. You might have a bad winter that could have killed thousands in a single year. Even if we assumed 10 million animals, this wouldnt be an issue.

On the flip side, a flood cant explain this. You cant have regional metamorphosis occurring side by side with an ice age. Much less the 10s of ice ages in which there is evidence for, occuring within perhaps a single year? Somehow these mammoth fossils were allegedly scooped up and deposited in a flood, but simultaneously metamorphosed rock below was also deposited. It doesnt make any sense. Not to mention that a flood cant explain the succession among many other things.

Job 33:6 · Aug 20, 2018

Valetic said:
Especially if there was a global flood?

Job 33:6 · Aug 20, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Well the only help I can give is that scientists are not at all unbiased. And way too many are far from honest. I can assure you, for example, that dead animals in a lab away from acid rain will decay. Put a few scavengers in the pen and the remains will be gone even faster. Add ants and the like and they’ll be no evidence at all.

I work with scientists and the group they least trust are other scientists. I’d be cautious in trusting them.

Also scientists keep changing their “truth.” Today this, tomorrow that.

This is exactly why frozen mammoths exist in the arctic in high numbers. Because there isnt acid rain, nor are there insects in the tundra, and their bodies are frozen just like steak in a freezer.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 20, 2018

The Barbarian said:
As you know, scientists are more honest than most people. The reason is that their data and research are available to anyone reading their articles, which gives them a very solid reason to be honest.

You obviously do not work in science. They are as honest as politicians about whom one could argue that politicians are more honest then most people cause their lives are public.

Scientists deeply mistrust other scientists cause they are known to steal each other’s life work if possible and no one in science cares if they do.

Which is what happens to the vast majority of vertebrates that die. But not all of them. The Karoo formation in Africa has billions of fossils that gradually accumulated at the delta of several rivers.

I assure you that fossils finally landing at a delta did not form along the way.

Guess how I know you don't actually know many scientists.

Blind prejudiced

I don't think you know what that word means.

Ah, the ad hominem attack when reason has failed.

In almost all cases, carbon dioxide is not the limiting nutrient in plants. So more CO2 won't give you more food. The other misconception is that leaves are the main issue. The majority of carbon exchange happens in the oceans.

No one says leaves are the main issue. Try to stay on topic.

Job 33:6 · Aug 20, 2018

Jennifer Rothnie said:
Interesting. Fossils are one of the strongest supports for Young Earth creation. And there are serious hurdles for those promoting the evolutionary 'geologic column.' Sorry this won;t be more in-depth but I don't have a lot of time for a long answer:

1. The 'geologic column' is a diagram, not a reality. It isn't found 'complete' as diagrammed anywhere in the world. There are a handful of places where all 'ten' stacks have been assigned/inferred, but even here it is not complete as none of those ten layers is the necessary thickness for the diagrammed column, even when taking erosion into account. For example, the diagram represents about 100-200 miles of rock. But local, real-world formations taken as 'proof' of the column are rarely more than a mile in total. Even the famous 'North Dakota' stack of ten is at most 16 miles. Erosion or any other known way to chip at those sediments just can't explain such a huge gap - this is a giant hurdle for proponents of the geologic 'column'. Furthermore, erosion is one of the worst forms of special-pleading for long-Earth proponents to hold to as in most places around the world there are no signs of erosion between definitive layers (e.g. fossilized soil, wind channels, water channels.)
View attachment 238432

I guess ill pick this apart, one point at a time.

this point number 1 appears to suggest that there are no signs of erosion between layers. But this just isnt true.

http://www.indiana.edu/~geol105b/images/gaia_chapter_6/unconformities.htm

We have plenty of erosional surfaces, we call them unconformities

we have paleochannels,

channeling from ancient streams and rivers.

This idea that there are no erosional surfaces is just false. The claim that there are no water channels is false as well. Any geomorphologist can tell you this.

Click the reply button to view all of the above figures. Take a good look at the last cross section where you have a stream channel cross cutting (via erosion) of the eastover and yorktown formations.

Dorothy Mae · Aug 20, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
This is exactly why frozen mammoths exist in the arctic in high numbers. Because there isnt acid rain, nor are there insects in the tundra, and their bodies are frozen just like steak in a freezer.

Pretty sure meat froze and still does when the temperatures are depp in minus. Btw, it doesn’t rain at temperatures deeply below freezing. It snows if anything but even that doesn’t occur if cold enough.

Job 33:6 · Aug 20, 2018

Regarding missing strata, we have principals of lateral continuity and superposition.

It doesnt take a genius to connect the dots. You dont need an entire geologic column located in a single place to understand superposition and relative dating. So even if you went to a place in the world where you only found precambrian igneous rocks, fear not, because you can just go to a neighboring location and find the same rock superpositionally below paleozoic rock.

Many places of the grand canyon are eroded away. But we just look to the other side of the area of erosion to see whats there to keep building on the column.

I thought I had them at the flood, but...

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