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I think this is one reason evangelism fails.

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d0c markus

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I think we do 2 things. We preach a man centered Gospel, basically making God a cure for problems and focus primarily on God's love instead of equally applying love and holiness.

Also we preach christ as our savior, we need a savior. Indeed that is true, but is not the word Lord used more concerning Jesus than savior. He needs to be preached as both our Lord and Savior, you cant have one without the other.

I didnt realize this till it was pointed out to me. Alot of evangelists do this. we dont fill people in on the detail that Jesus is either the Lord of your life or not, along with the savior aspect of our King.

The second thing is that we are called to make disciples in addition to evangelizing them. We can lead someone through the 'sinners prayer' all day long and invite them to church but if the church fails to get with the new member and begin to disciple him we will fail.

What do you guys think? Does that make sense?
 

LynneClomina

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TOTALLY. so, so true. ppl say, i believe, i'm saved, so i'm gay (or what have you) Jesus still loves me and i'm his child..... oh, man, if you are saved, He is your LORD. and you OBEY. if he is not your LORD, he is not your SAVIOR. you've said, sure Jesus, i'll take your offer of heaven over hell, but as for this life??? i'll live it as i please.... NOT!!!! if you are TRULY saved, and you KNOW what you are saved FROM (your control over your own life is a huge part of it!) then you can't HELP but make Him LORD of your life.

hmmm... i'm done my speil... what was the OP again????? :scratch:
 
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P_G

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Doc:


Bless you for pointing out a huge problem in the church.
But it is not the fault of the Evangalist. His job basically is
as salesman. To present Jesus and his atonement and let the sinner
know that there is a way out. That he doesn't have to "get good enough to be saved"

Beeing one set free from drugs, alcohol, wommanizing, violence, hatred, oh you name it! I really relate to the passage in Romans 30

God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil


That was surely me some one who invented ways of doing evil! And I was convinced that there was no way G-d wanted anyting to do with me! But along the way came evangalists, people who told me of the mercy and grace of Christ Jesus. And eventually I yeilded to his unrelenting love.

And then came along the Disiciplers

And that is where the church falls down. We see someone saved, shout hallelujah and amen and then nothing more.
We as a body need to come alongside the new convert and teach them the ways and the path of righteousness. Not getting frustrated but in love. Urge them to Bible study and to services and to service.

And I will tell you most people in the church are so blatently arrogant towards the new Christian I marvel that the Lord tarrys at all!

Listen to me YOU ARE NOT ANY BETTER THAN THEY ARE!
I don't care how long you have been walking with the Lord you are still one crucifixtion away from a firey hell!

So no matter where the person has been or what they have done best you YOU start inviting them into your home and your life and loving them, teaching them, being a brother or a sister to them.

I got a brother who lives with me part time his name is Terry. I met him at a prison service. He was a felon now he is a brother. And Jesus is becomming his LORD and master. To see him serve to see him worship blesses me. And I would not trade this man or his place in my life for a legion of pew potatoes looking down their noses because a mans hands are not too clean.

Sorry to be so hard but it needed to be said

Blessings

Love

Pastor George :wave:
 
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LynneClomina

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sweetsoulsong said:
Hm.

Can it be said that the church is living out the Gospel in day-to-day life?

If not, then I think John 17:21 applies. Well, it applies anyway. "...that they might believe that You sent Me."

the ENTIRE body of Christ? not fully. on a church-by-church basis (individual bodies of believers), some definately are.
 
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d0c markus

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Good Stuff.

If any of you want a great book, i reccomend you pick up.

0830823220.01._PE30_PIdp-schmooS,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg


Review @ Amazon said:
If you're into gimmicky evangelism, then continue shopping. If, however, you desire to develop a more biblically based understanding of the Gospel, this book is the one for you. Metzger is excellent in getting us to look past the shallow and manipulative approaches to evangelism that are so prominent in our day and making a case for presenting the full gospel (counting the cost, repentance, etc.). This would be a great book for individual or group study.
God Bless.
 
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P_G

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sweetsoulsong said:
Hm.

Can it be said that the church is living out the Gospel in day-to-day life?

If not, then I think John 17:21 applies. Well, it applies anyway. "...that they might believe that You sent Me."
The problem I think is that most people in most churches and most churches in general just sort of hang out and do nothing in so far as bringing people up. Its a show up on Sunday deal and we see you for an hour and maybe say hello.

You know I preach at a church I used to attend once in a while. And no one ever bothered to say hello or invite me over or anything. Now they know who I am and know what I dare say when I preach that things get a little uncomfortable for some!

Blessings

PG :wave:
 
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Reformationist

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d0c markus said:
I think we do 2 things. We preach a man centered Gospel, basically making God a cure for problems and focus primarily on God's love instead of equally applying love and holiness.

So stop preaching a man centered Gospel. :) That's one of the wonderful things about our minds being illuminated to the anthropocentricity of our inclinations. The Lord has revealed this to you for a reason. Let His Truth reform you. True repentence in not just turning away from sin. It is also turning to the Truth.

Also we preach christ as our savior, we need a savior. Indeed that is true, but is not the word Lord used more concerning Jesus than savior. He needs to be preached as both our Lord and Savior, you cant have one without the other.

I didnt realize this till it was pointed out to me. Alot of evangelists do this. we dont fill people in on the detail that Jesus is either the Lord of your life or not, along with the savior aspect of our King.

Absolutely. Well said.

The second thing is that we are called to make disciples in addition to evangelizing them. We can lead someone through the 'sinners prayer' all day long and invite them to church but if the church fails to get with the new member and begin to disciple him we will fail.

What do you guys think? Does that make sense?

Absolutely again. Well said.

God bless
 
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LuxPerpetua

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I agree doc markus!! That is one thing I really love about the Baptist church--there is a very strong emphasis upon making Christ Lord of everything you think and do. This isn't always stressed in the other churches I've attended. I personally think that if more Christians behaved like true ambassadors for Christ, then we'd have an easier time getting others to soften their hearts and accept God's message of salvation. I heard a line somewhere one time (can't remember off hand): "God save Christianity from the Christians!" Unfortunately, many times I've felt that way, too. Thankfully, God's grace is greater than us. :)
 
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Reformationist

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d0c markus said:
Will Metzger

he's a calvanist... awesome writer!

Sorry to be the one to tell you but you just destroyed any possibility of about 80% of this MB ever reading it by showing his affiliation to Calvinism.

Too bad. It's probably a great book. I'll check it out. I'm not afraid of the truth.

Thanks for sharing.

God bless
 
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Hands&Feet

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We don't MAKE Jesus Lord. He is Lord. Of course He is Savior and Lord. I don't seem to follow what is being said here. But, just because He is Lord doesn't mean that we act like He is Lord. Fortunately for us He understands this and loves us any way.

I think there is a big danger in thinking that we somehow have a handle on doing what it takes to tow this elusive Lordship line and judge others who we don't think are getting it. When we do that we are essentially trying to make the Law Lord over those whom we don't preceive as walking in our preconceived notion of obedience, instead of telling them Jesus is Lord. When we make disciples like this we often make them twice the sons of hell as we, ourselves, are.

We stand in judgement of sinners all the time and drive them away from the love of God. When we do manage to lead them to Christ, we make their strict adherence to Law almost a prerequisite. This is wrongheaded.

I talk with the unchurched all over the country daily and the very biggest single problem they inadvertantly have with the church is that they see them building 30 and 40 million dollar towers of Babel all over the countryside, making the "Look at Us" statement, when there is poverty all around them, drug abuse, broken homes, people dying of AIDS, small handsful of the faithful missionaries such as the ones just killed in a drive-by over in Iraq while comapsssionately working to restore water to the people over there, when, in reality, there should have been more of us over ther than over here in church last Sunday. But, we can't do that because we can't give but a small fraction of our tithes to meet any real need, because most of it goes to pay the mortgage on some monsterous edifice.

That is the single largest stumbling block that I encounter--almost daily--in my effort to help people find Jesus. Such mentality does not speak of the Lordship of Christ in the minds of the lost or in the minds of anyone who really stops to consider it. We need to become less concerned with real estate and more concerned with real people and real lives. There is a whole lot of hurtin' goin' on out here and it seems like there is less money and fewer servants of Christ available to do anything about it.

We need more ministries like Keith Green had. He kept renting and buying up homes to house the homeless who he was leading to Jesus. He didn't worry about them getting their act together. They just hopped on the band wagon and got involved with helping others , along with Keith, Melody and all. None of these people were taught any kind of head knowledge at the onset of the miinistry--there was little time for it. They were too busy being the hands and feet of Jesus to those in need. In doing that they WERE getting it. They were living out the true Gospel and the rest all began to make sense. They had it in their hearts long before there was anything in their heads; and to my way of thinking, isn't that just like the Lord?
Yet those same people often went on to become one of the most powerful witnesses of the Gospel according to Jesus in the last century.

Once I am able to remove that stumbling block, once the unsaved realize that the self-centered mentality of so much of the church is foreign to the way of Christ, I seldom have any problem leading them to Him. And when they embrace Him, there is some real substance to their salvation, because they are compelled to go out there and love people into the Kingdom.

I have gone down the same delusional roads as the rest of institutionalism in my day with the same dismal results. But, since I've had my eyes opened and my heart broken, I seldom have anyone turn down the offer of salvation.

Evangelism fails because it is reduced to a trail of tracts along the way by the relentless fingerpointing and actionless words of the self-righteous. Brothers and sisters in Jesus, the lost need to know they are loved and accepted unconditionally. They already know what's wrong with them, they are looking for a God and His followers who will accept them without strings and love them inspite of their struggles, setbacks, and indescretions. When we begin to do that, the bondage of those iniquities will eventually be broken as their sorrows are traded for the Joy of The Lord.
:)
 
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LynneClomina

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LuxPerpetua said:
Amen! Hands&Feet! :clap: VERY well said, and you definitely hit the right vein.

I think what we all mean by "make" Jesus Lord of our lives is to "acknowledge His Lordship over us" and seek His will, not our own--if that clears things up a bit.

how about to "submit" to His lordship? your either submitted to him (he is Lord) or you are not (he "isnt").

of course he is always Lord. but 90% of the world isnt submitted to that. i know ppl who understand that Jesus is Lord, but will not submit to it.
 
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Bro. Gabriel

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Evangelism fails because we focus on creating a God in an image we desire instead of looking at the Bible and how God really is.

We preach that being a Christian will make your life better and without problems, and that is totally false.

Being a Christian is about having grace and security in where you'll be when you die, not about living a better life or an easier life... in fact, being a Christian is supposed to be hard and filled with persecution, pain, and suffering (and if it's not, I'd question your commitment to being a Believer!).

Like Jesus said, we are to take our cross (suffering, pain, persecution) and follow Him, lest we be found unworthy to be a child of God.
 
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LynneClomina

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Bro. Gabriel said:
Evangelism fails because we focus on creating a God in an image we desire instead of looking at the Bible and how God really is.

We preach that being a Christian will make your life better and without problems, and that is totally false.

Being a Christian is about having grace and security in where you'll be when you die, not about living a better life or an easier life... in fact, being a Christian is supposed to be hard and filled with persecution, pain, and suffering (and if it's not, I'd question your commitment to being a Believer!).

Like Jesus said, we are to take our cross (suffering, pain, persecution) and follow Him, lest we be found unworthy to be a child of God.

amen. and the pursuit of Jesus brings sanctification and less and less sin in our lives. its not about living clean for Jesus, its living clean BECAUSE of Jesus - he works it in us.
 
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