I think it's time to be painfully honest about the TWICE DEAD.

[Grip Docility]

Jesus says two things to the Torah Teaching Pharisees that condemn humanity and exalt themselves as Torah Adherent and Righteous of self or better than all humanity in their ways, by their own mouths.

1: He calls them sons of the devil, working the devils will of murder and apostasy... who were fit for Hell Fire.
2: He calls them TWICE DEAD.

Revelation 21:8

Spoiler

But the cowardly, 1169 deilós (an adjective derived from deidō, "fear-driven") – properly, dreadful, describing a person who loses their "moral gumption (fortitude)" that is needed to follow the Lord.

1169 /deilós ("fearful of losses") refers to an excessive fear (dread) of "losing," causing someone to be fainthearted (cowardly) – hence, to fall short in following Christ as Lord.

[1169 /deilós is always used negatively in the NT and stands in contrast to the positive fear which can be expressed by 5401 /phóbos ("fear," see Phil 2:12).]

the unbelieving, 571 ápistos (from 1 /A "not" and 4103 /pistós, "faithful," see there) – properly, not faithful because unpersuaded, i.e. not convinced (persuaded by God). 571 /ápistos ("faithless, unpersuaded") does not always refer to the unconverted – see Jn 20:27. 571 (ápistos) describes someone who rejects or refuses God's inbirthings of faith (note the root, faith, 4102 /pístis).

the vile, Cognate: 948 bdelýssō – properly, stink, become foul (abhorrent), detestable as stench; "to strongly detest something on the basis that it is abominable – 'to abhor, to abominate' " (L & N, 1, 25.186). See 946 (bdelussō).

the murderers, Cognate: 5406 phoneús – a murderer, committing unjustified, intentional homicide. See 5407 (phoneuō).

the sexually immoral, 4205 pórnos (from pernaō, "to sell off") – properly, a male prostitute. 4205 (pórnos) is "properly, 'a male prostitute' (so Xen., etc.); in the NT, any fornicator" (Abbott-Smith); i.e. anyone engaging in sexual immorality. See 4202 (porneia). (Apostasy of placing the teachings of the Created over the Creator)


those who practice magic arts, This is directly those who work the will and power of demons. It will be far more visible when Satan is fully unbound before the end.

the idolaters εἰδωλολάτρης ἐιδωλολατρου, ὁ (εἴδωλον, and λάτρις i. e. a hireling, servant, slave), a worshipper of false gods, an idolater, (Tertullianidololatres): 1 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 22:15; anyone, even a Christian, participant in any way in the worship of heathen,

and all liars Usage: false, deceitful, lying, untrue. From pseudomai; untrue, i.e. Erroneous, deceitful, wicked -- false, liar.

—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Jesus was warning all that hadn't allowed such evil within their hearts that compels a person to accuse and condemn fellow humanity through hate and judgment, void of Love towards anyone fashioned in the image of God (All Humanity)... that these men that He pointed out, were TWICE DEAD in the way that they were headed for the lake of fire because of the hardness of their hearts, which they, themselves will be reaping due to what they have sewn.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus says two things to the Torah Teaching Pharisees that condemn humanity and exalt themselves as Torah Adherent and Righteous of self or better than all humanity in their ways, by their own mouths.

1: He calls them sons of the devil, working the devils will of murder and apostasy... who were fit for Hell Fire.
2: He calls them TWICE DEAD.

Revelation 21:8

Spoiler

But the cowardly, 1169 deilós (an adjective derived from deidō, "fear-driven") – properly, dreadful, describing a person who loses their "moral gumption (fortitude)" that is needed to follow the Lord.

1169 /deilós ("fearful of losses") refers to an excessive fear (dread) of "losing," causing someone to be fainthearted (cowardly) – hence, to fall short in following Christ as Lord.

[1169 /deilós is always used negatively in the NT and stands in contrast to the positive fear which can be expressed by 5401 /phóbos ("fear," see Phil 2:12).]

the unbelieving, 571 ápistos (from 1 /A "not" and 4103 /pistós, "faithful," see there) – properly, not faithful because unpersuaded, i.e. not convinced (persuaded by God). 571 /ápistos ("faithless, unpersuaded") does not always refer to the unconverted – see Jn 20:27. 571 (ápistos) describes someone who rejects or refuses God's inbirthings of faith (note the root, faith, 4102 /pístis).

the vile, Cognate: 948 bdelýssō – properly, stink, become foul (abhorrent), detestable as stench; "to strongly detest something on the basis that it is abominable – 'to abhor, to abominate' " (L & N, 1, 25.186). See 946 (bdelussō).

the murderers, Cognate: 5406 phoneús – a murderer, committing unjustified, intentional homicide. See 5407 (phoneuō).

the sexually immoral, 4205 pórnos (from pernaō, "to sell off") – properly, a male prostitute. 4205 (pórnos) is "properly, 'a male prostitute' (so Xen., etc.); in the NT, any fornicator" (Abbott-Smith); i.e. anyone engaging in sexual immorality. See 4202 (porneia). (Apostasy of placing the teachings of the Created over the Creator)


those who practice magic arts, This is directly those who work the will and power of demons. It will be far more visible when Satan is fully unbound before the end.

the idolaters εἰδωλολάτρης ἐιδωλολατρου, ὁ (εἴδωλον, and λάτρις i. e. a hireling, servant, slave), a worshipper of false gods, an idolater, (Tertullianidololatres): 1 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 21:8; Revelation 22:15; anyone, even a Christian, participant in any way in the worship of heathen,

and all liars Usage: false, deceitful, lying, untrue. From pseudomai; untrue, i.e. Erroneous, deceitful, wicked -- false, liar.

—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Jesus was warning all that hadn't allowed such evil within their hearts that compels a person to accuse and condemn fellow humanity through hate and judgment, void of Love towards anyone fashioned in the image of God (All Humanity)... that these men that He pointed out, were TWICE DEAD in the way that they were headed for the lake of fire because of the hardness of their hearts, which they, themselves will be reaping due to what they have sewn.

Good job! I particularly appreciated the work done in the "spoiler"

 

[Grip Docility]

Good job! I particularly appreciated the work done in the "spoiler"

Thank you, Mark! I have noted all throughout the NT, that Jesus' words to the Pharisees seem to be a severe attempt at warning all of us. Just as Jesus gave us the very Perfect Image of God, He went out of His way to give us a picture of what "Damned" will look like. There was no other verse that really doubled down on the OP point, more so than the Revelation verse. I have noted time and time again that all usage of "Condemnation Scripture" in the NT, anchors to Matthew 23. I think people forget that when each word of the NT was being penned, that those that claimed to be Holy, were actually perpetually trying to Kill the NT authors. Paul even speaks of this quite frequently!

I wanted to ensure that I didn't just throw those specific identifications out in a way that "puritan culture" could misinterpret. It's kind of like when scripture speaks about "sexual immorality" in a carnal way, via NT authors. Modern day "purity" culture has no idea what that meant! The Greco Romans that Paul was pointing that towards were a different animal, as they integrated into the church. Western culture has watered down the reach of Christ's blood, in my opinion. I always feel obligated to ensure that people reading Condemnation scripture realize that the question of "Am I Saved" due to fears of being Imperfect before God, thanks to the harshness of puritan culture, can take a breath and realize that it's not as it seems, by many current teachings.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thank you, Mark! I have noted all throughout the NT, that Jesus' words to the Pharisees seem to be a severe attempt at warning all of us. Just as Jesus gave us the very Perfect Image of God, He went out of His way to give us a picture of what "Damned" will look like. There was no other verse that really doubled down on the OP point, more so than the Revelation verse. I have noted time and time again that all usage of "Condemnation Scripture" in the NT, anchors to Matthew 23. I think people forget that when each word of the NT was being penned, that those that claimed to be Holy, were actually perpetually trying to Kill the NT authors. Paul even speaks of this quite frequently!

I wanted to ensure that I didn't just throw those specific identifications out in a way that "puritan culture" could misinterpret. It's kind of like when scripture speaks about "sexual immorality" in a carnal way, via NT authors. Modern day "purity" culture has no idea what that meant! The Greco Romans that Paul was pointing that towards were a different animal, as they integrated into the church. Western culture has watered down the reach of Christ's blood, in my opinion. I always feel obligated to ensure that people reading Condemnation scripture realize that the question of "Am I Saved" due to fears of being Imperfect before God, thanks to the harshness of puritan culture, can take a breath and realize that it's not as it seems, by many current teachings.

I'm curious what you mean by "puritan culture", here. You use it twice, once in quotes, as though you are not referring to the Puritans, but to supposed purity or a 'puritanical' caricature, which you seem to affirm by referring to "modern day 'purity' culture", but then you refer to "Western culture". I'm not sure what you are referring to.

But I am sure you are right that righteousness is not quite what is commonly focused on. God's view of sin make ours silly both in scope and horror —not just in quality but in meaning. The antithesis of being one with Christ, and of being In Christ, is lost in modern notions of sin.

 

[Grip Docility]

I'm curious what you mean by "puritan culture", here. You use it twice, once in quotes, as though you are not referring to the Puritans, but to supposed purity or a 'puritanical' caricature, which you seem to affirm by referring to "modern day 'purity' culture", but then you refer to "Western culture". I'm not sure what you are referring to.

But I am sure you are right that righteousness is not quite what is commonly focused on. God's view of sin make ours silly both in scope and horror —not just in quality but in meaning. The antithesis of being one with Christ, and of being In Christ, is lost in modern notions of sin.

If you think this would help other readers, I would be willing to engage in a question and answer style unpacking of this. You and I are both aware that the two Covenants are incompatible.

If you are willing to answer questions based on understandings of Jesus Christ's interactions with the Pharisees and the scriptural revelations of the New Covenant, I could do that. I cannot write this out in a form of "commentary", because it is that kind of a matter.

If you would like to unpack this, my first question is this;

Which of the 613 Mitzvahs of the Old Covenant did Jesus not fulfil or cover with His blood according to the full summation of Paul's writings and the book of Hebrews. (He fulfilled all of them is an acceptable answer if so inclined)

If you see it as clear enough... we can just leave it as is.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you think this would help other readers, I would be willing to engage in a question and answer style unpacking of this. You and I are both aware that the two Covenants are incompatible.

If you are willing to answer questions based on understandings of Jesus Christ's interactions with the Pharisees and the scriptural revelations of the New Covenant, I could do that. I cannot write this out in a form of "commentary", because it is that kind of a matter.

If you would like to unpack this, my first question is this;

Which of the 613 Mitzvahs of the Old Covenant did Jesus not fulfil or cover with His blood according to the full summation of Paul's writings and the book of Hebrews. (He fulfilled all of them is an acceptable answer if so inclined)

If you see it as clear enough... we can just leave it as is.

Brother. You know I love you in Christ our Lord and Savior. But our attempts to engage in such conversation go so far into 'theory' and away from heart (at least on my part) that I don't see this working. We disagree on much —always the words and assumed implications, not to mention the presumptive [and imprecise] language from which we base our arguments— or maybe it is only on a few hard things.

If you wish to proceed, I will have to have to know where you are heading on this, just to be able to answer in a way that my words cannot be used to go where I had intended that they not go, or to imply things that I don't mean. And, for what it's worth, I don't say this with everyone with whom I argue. With some, I don't care very much nor take them very seriously. I don't think you do that on purpose, but that you simply think some things imply things that to me they do not. I would rather the conversation didn't go there.

Just for starters, what are the two Covenants, that you take to be incompatible? I am adamant that there has only ever been one Gospel. So please describe the two Covenants and show their incompatibility.

But yes, he fulfilled all the law.

 

[Grip Docility]

Brother. You know I love you in Christ our Lord and Savior. But our attempts to engage in such conversation go so far into 'theory' and away from heart (at least on my part) that I don't see this working. We disagree on much —always the words and assumed implications, not to mention the presumptive [and imprecise] language from which we base our arguments— or maybe it is only on a few hard things. ... But yes, he fulfilled all the law.

One cannot pour New Wine into Old Wineskins.

The Stone Covenant of death, though a passing glory, has passed (in reference to being a tool of condemnation that can condemn). Something far surpassing in Glory is in its place. To be direct, Jesus Christ is the New Covenant.

This said, I agree with what I underlined from your quote and on this specific matter, agree that enough has been said. No further dialogue on this is necessary.

All Love to you, Brother in Jesus, who rests in Him completely.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

1: He calls them sons of the devil, working the devils will of murder and apostasy... who were fit for Hell Fire.

Why do you blame and accuse the people and totally ignore the devil?

Mark 4:15 was a reality for them, just as it is for all of us

All have sin, Romans 3:9

And sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

What you are engaged in is no different than what they were engaged in

And when Jesus called them sons of the devil has it ever occurred to you that Jesus was speaking to devils in those people? Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to who?

Satan

 

[Grip Docility]

Why do you blame and accuse the people and totally ignore the devil?

Mark 4:15 was a reality for them, just as it is for all of us

All have sin, Romans 3:9

And sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

What you are engaged in is no different than what they were engaged in

And when Jesus called them sons of the devil has it ever occurred to you that Jesus was speaking to devils in those people? Just as Jesus looked at Peter and spoke to who?

Satan

Matthew 23…

Who did Jesus speak it to and who is it towards?

Are you suggesting that Jesus is an “accuser”?

Last question… who is your sin bearer?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Matthew 23…

Who did Jesus speak it to and who is it towards?

Are you suggesting that Jesus is an “accuser”?

Last question… who is your sin bearer?

Point being Jesus often addressed Satan and devils in mankind, speaking to them, even directing them

A person would be blind to miss these encounters

Jesus didn't sacrifice for any devils nor did He forgive them

 

[Grip Docility]

Point being Jesus often addressed Satan and devils in mankind, speaking to them, even directing them

Jesus did directly address the "fallen". He even cast some of them into unclean pigs. However, you are being purposefully blind to who Jesus was addressing in Matthew 23. Why ignore scriptural flow by abrogating it's intentional insinuation?

A person would be blind to miss these encounters

You can't mix the casting out of demons with the address of Jesus to man that had willingly been led to selfish corruption and self-righteousness. This is a VERY real matter. The leavening of the Pharisees is VERY real. It does root in doctrines of Demons, but the people that choose Self over God are culpable for their failures. Jesus was beyond clear on this matter in Matthew 23. He didn't say "Woe to you DEMONS inside of the Scribes and Torah Teachers". He directly pointed His woes at the Scribes and Torah Teachers.

Jesus didn't sacrifice for any devils nor did He forgive them

I appreciate this answer, but I am going to ask again. Who bears ALL of your sins?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

"Woe to you DEMONS inside of the Scribes and Torah Teachers". He directly pointed His woes at the Scribes and Torah Teachers.

Uh no, that is never the case. Sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor 5:19

Jesus doesn't forgive devils or let a single one of them off the hook

Satan is moved by the law to enter hearts and steal, by Jesus' Own Words

Therefore no person hearing the Word is exempt, particularly those in the temple at that time

God placed them all under the spirit of slumber, a spirit that was not them. Romans 11:8. They couldn't hear or see if they wanted to. Romans 11:8 is a direct reference to the reality of Mark 4:15

What was it they couldn't see? That their sin was "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, and that they were under the dominion of the devil, 2 Cor 3:14, 2 Cor 4:4, Eph 2:2 and many many others

Just as believers today can't see their own sins that way. They only see people and they only see themselves and they never factor in our adversary into the "theology." Just as you only see scribes and pharisees, but never do you see their captor. When Jesus said you are of your father, the devil, Jesus was speaking to DEVILS. People are not devils

Jesus could look any of us in the face and speak to the tempter, Satan, who tempts, steals and deceives withIN, just as He looked at Peter and spoke to Satan, a completely different entity than Peter

an entity which your accounting has zero references or understanding of, because-do the math for yourself

Mark 4:15 is real, believeitoarknot

 

[Grip Docility]

Uh no, that is never the case. Sins are not counted against people. 2 Cor 5:19

Jesus doesn't forgive devils or let a single one of them off the hook

Satan is moved by the law to enter hearts and steal, by Jesus' Own Words

Therefore no person hearing the Word is exempt, particularly those in the temple at that time

God placed them all under the spirit of slumber, a spirit that was not them. Romans 11:8. They couldn't hear or see if they wanted to. Romans 11:8 is a direct reference to the reality of Mark 4:15

What was it they couldn't see? That their sin was "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, and that they were under the dominion of the devil, 2 Cor 3:14, 2 Cor 4:4, Eph 2:2 and many many others

Just as believers today can't see their own sins that way. They only see people and they only see themselves and they never factor in our adversary into the "theology." Just as you only see scribes and pharisees, but never do you see their captor. When Jesus said you are of your father, the devil, Jesus was speaking to DEVILS. People are not devils

Jesus could look any of us in the face and speak to the tempter, Satan, who tempts, steals and deceives withIN, just as He looked at Peter and spoke to Satan, a completely different entity than Peter

an entity which your accounting has zero references or understanding of, because-do the math for yourself

Mark 4:15 is real, believeitoarknot

You haven’t answered my question once.

Who bears ALL of your sins?

Also… you are wrong about me, individually. I very much factor the evil ones impact into scripture as scripture reveals it.

Here’s a link to my part one of an eleven part study that I did. I left David’s son out and could have gone on, but I wanted to move on to other scripture for a while.

There is only one Dragon/Serpent in scripture (Part 1)​

There is only one Dragon/Serpent in scripture (Part 1)

Maybe start here and add where you see differences of view.

I suspect that you misunderstand the Desert Demon goat.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Also… you are wrong about me, individually. I very much factor the evil ones impact into scripture as scripture reveals it.

I've read some of your clips.

As to bearing sins or atonement, will state again that sin is "of the devil," and not one single sin of the devil(s) were ever atoned for or forgiven. No, not one. The notions that "we are exempt" from being struck by God for walking in the same pair of shoes as our adversary is a false gospel. God loves people. God hates devils. Both statements are true for everyone.

Sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor 5:19

You are definitely counting against people, beyond any question. And nearly completely ignoring the real, unseen perp. Which is understandable, considering the reality of Mark 4:15. I don't hold it against you. God just doesn't let you see it or deal with it is all

 

[Grip Docility]

I've read some of your clips.

As to bearing sins or atonement, will state again that sin is "of the devil," and not one single sin of the devil(s) were ever atoned for or forgiven. No, not one. The notions that "we are exempt" from being struck by God for walking in the same pair of shoes as our adversary is a false gospel. God loves people. God hates devils. Both statements are true for everyone.

Sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor 5:19

You are definitely counting against people, beyond any question. And nearly completely ignoring the real, unseen perp. Which is understandable, considering the reality of Mark 4:15. I don't hold it against you. God just doesn't let you see it or deal with it is all

Please Answer True! You make far too many assumptions about how I believe, in your statements. I can't answer a single statement until I know for sure if a thing is certain. Can you please answer this question with a yes or a no?

Did Jesus Bear all of your Sins?

 

[Grip Docility]

I've read some of your clips.

As to bearing sins or atonement, will state again that sin is "of the devil," and not one single sin of the devil(s) were ever atoned for or forgiven. No, not one. The notions that "we are exempt" from being struck by God for walking in the same pair of shoes as our adversary is a false gospel. God loves people. God hates devils. Both statements are true for everyone.

Sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor 5:19

You are definitely counting against people, beyond any question. And nearly completely ignoring the real, unseen perp. Which is understandable, considering the reality of Mark 4:15. I don't hold it against you. God just doesn't let you see it or deal with it is all

Let us step aside from disagreement. Do you interpret scripture as you do out of the conviction of Mercy towards all humanity?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Let us step aside from disagreement. Do you interpret scripture as you do out of the conviction of Mercy towards all humanity?

I better check the rules to see if this section actually allows believers to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Point remains however that Jesus could look at any of us and speak to the tempter in our own minds just as He looked at Peter and spoke to Satan

Surface theology doesn't scratch in that particular direction

The last thing any of us want to admit to is that our own sinful thoughts are of the devil. Mark 7:21, Mark 7:21-23, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, etc

 

[Grip Docility]

I better check the rules to see if this section actually allows believers to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Point remains however that Jesus could look at any of us and speak to the tempter in our own minds just as He looked at Peter and spoke to Satan

Surface theology doesn't scratch in that particular direction

The last thing any of us want to admit to is that our own sinful thoughts are of the devil. Mark 7:21, Mark 7:21-23, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, etc

I assure you, I believe that this universe is the very Tabernacle that the invisible Body dwells within and I read Colossians 1 that Christ's blood covered all humanity and more. I do not deny a single person the blood, nor do I deny the golden rule to anyone.

I never deny that I am nothing more than a sinner that is forgiven moment by moment. Jesus is the only hope that I have and He is far beyond sufficient.

Can we start here?

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Your opener had some serious rips in theologic.

Just pointed out some obvious holes, such as people being children of the devil. That claim is typical heresy in orthodox circles and I agree with orthodoxy on that count. People are not devils, period. Where it gets tricky for amateurs and armchair readers is that Jesus addressed devils in people

Two separate entities, both walking in the same pair of shoes, which actually makes Bible reading itself massively interesting, to figure out who is who and what is really going on behind the scenes and under the surface covers

God in Christ did not sacrifice himself so either save or forgive devils.

So let's start there

 

[Grip Docility]

Your opener had some serious rips in theologic.

Just pointed out some obvious holes, such as people being children of the devil. That claim is typical heresy in orthodox circles and I agree with orthodoxy on that count. People are not devils, period. Where it gets tricky for amateurs and armchair readers is that Jesus addressed devils in people

Two separate entities, both walking in the same pair of shoes, which actually makes Bible reading itself massively interesting, to figure out who is who and what is really going on behind the scenes and under the surface covers

God in Christ did not sacrifice himself so either save or forgive devils.

So let's start there

Read Colossians 1 and get back to me about what Christ's blood covers. I am just a mere man and my Pride is Jesus Christ, not my opinion of theology. I'm okay with the possibility that I am wrong and exalt 1 John 2:27 perpetually that no one should ever take my words without challenging them against scripture. I only speak opinion. God and Scripture, alone are Truth. God alone is the Living Truth.

I'm not sure why you ignored what I asked before you posted words that would be insulting to me if I was a proud person. I'm too aware of how God is God and I am me to not be Humble. I'm genuinely a humiliated man by the mistakes of my life that are abundant. If you came here to prove that you are wise and knowledgeable, I am certain that you are far wiser and knowledgeable than myself.

John 8:13 The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”
John 8:37 I know you are descendants of Abraham, but you are trying to kill Me because My word is not welcome among you.

Jesus acknowledges that the Pharisees are descendants of Abraham. Do you desire to explain when demons became descendants of Abraham?​

38 I speak what I have seen in the presence of the Father; therefore, you do what you have heard from your father.”
39 “Our father is Abraham!” they replied.
John 8:40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

I desired kind conversation. I don't see it happening.

I will ask again; Did Jesus Christ Bear ALL of your Sins?