I think I just had an epiphany

jamesbond007 · Nov 6, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
How are we supposed to glorify God when we're busy condemning others?

This is what I got out of your post. I suppose it's easiest to judge and condemn others unlike us or who do not think about faith and religion the same way as us. I catch myself doing this at times. However, Jesus is the one who died on the cross and paid the price for all sins -- past, present, and future. He is the one who paid the ransom and is the only person fit to judge and he will. Thus, the rest of stuff we hear, one has to take with a grain of salt.

theoneandonlypencil said:
Jesus Christ may be the only way to salvation, but it seems like that 'long narrow path' might actually have to be SEVERAL long narrow paths at this point.

Yes, the path to salvation is narrow. The entrance to heaven is small.

Bruce Leiter · Nov 6, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
So I had an interesting thought that I wanted to share. Bear with me please, because this might be long.

I'm still taking in as much biblical information as I can, and the more I read about ALL of the debates between denomination over what classifies as sin, what doctrine is correct, who is the real heretic, etc...I kinda realized some things.

Satan's plan to infiltrate the church is not how I thought it was.

Now I'm not talking about disputes over basic biblical truths(such as whether or not it's okay to have premarital sex or something of the like)--but things that are...less important, if at all mentioned in the bible. Listen, in just the past few months, I've read and observed a lot. Some of which include;
- C.S. Lewis was a satanic pagan heretic who despises Christianity and if ANY pastor endorses his Christian works(like mere christianity)then he is a heretic himself and should be ashamed
- It's sinful for women to wear pants
- A woman thought that ANY and ALL cartoons were satanic and sending children to hell because of a 'vision' she had in a dream
- Rock music is secretly satantic worship messages
- Metal is evil because the 'beat' is aggressive
- Paul Washer(whom I really look up to)is a false prophet who pushes calvinism and causes people to stray from Jesus
- Anyone basically who doesn't believe in the 'right' doctrine is heretical and will burn in hell
- All holidays are evil because of their pagan roots, and if you celebrate any form of them, you're pretty much betraying Christ
- Contemplative prayer is anti-biblical because it resembles 'eastern tradition' and isn't mentioned in the bible

I mean...look at that list. The more I observe a lot of Christian communities, the more that I see what's going on in the background. There's so much competition between doctrines and beliefs, I have to wonder; are we missing the point? I understand that we are to rebuke our brothers and sisters when they are sinning, but what gives us the authority to argue over Christ-centered doctrine? So long as it's not promoting sin...what of it? I see a lot of Christians viciously attacking each other with the belief that 'their' doctrine is right, and become so arrogant that they feel as though they have the authority to tell people whether or not they're going to hell. Whether or not they're truly CHRISTIANS. Let's face it; Jesus Christ may be the only way to salvation, but it seems like that 'long narrow path' might actually have to be SEVERAL long narrow paths at this point.

I've dedicated myself to learning the truth about the bible; about Christianity. But the more I learn, the more I hear the arguments from all sides, the more I think of this particular verse...

Titus 3:9-11 NIV
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
...and the more I realize, we really are all missing the point.

How are we supposed to glorify God when we're busy condemning others?
How are we to claim we're loving just as Jesus Christ was when we use such harsh words like 'heretic', 'apostate', 'satanic' to describe our brothers and sisters who believe in the same sins, the same God, the same Jesus that died on the cross for all of our sins...all because they differ in doctrine? Is that not hate???
How are we supposed to grow in our relationship with God when we're only concerned with how 'holy' or 'correct' we appear to everyone around us?
How do we even know we're right with our doctrine?
How do we know those who disagree with us are wrong?

I'm sick and tired of it, truly. I myself do have disagreements with people over doctrine, and that's OKAY. I'm not saying you shouldn't voice an opinion if you think that something isn't biblically sound. But at the same time, it seems like very few people have the humility to admit that they could be wrong with their own argument--or that, heaven forbid, the subject matter is up to one's personal conviction. No, it's always "The verses I pulled up MYSELF say that you're wrong" or those condescending remarks of "Only the Holy Spirit can help you" when they realize you aren't caving in your own convictions--as if your version of God is different than mine and will suddenly enlighten me on why you're the holy one and I'm not???

The PRIDE displayed is unbelievable. None of us, not a single one is qualified to be the final judge on whether our interpretation of something in the bible is true or not. Just because someone has a different viewpoint, doesn't mean they're automatically a hedonistic heretic. Likewise, I'm sick of the word 'legalistic' being thrown around. Yes, there are a lot of real legalists out there; and no, they probably aren't the ones who are genuinely concerned with your spiritual state and think that you should make some changes in your life. There are a lot of EXTREMELY devout Christians whom I look up to who are full of zeal and considered 'legalistic' by people, I'm sure. Even I sometimes disagree with what they talk about. I once, admittedly, felt shameful that I wasn't as 'holy' or 'perfect' as they appeared to be--and I began to shy away from learning from them, that if I fell short of what they were, I wasn't good enough for Christ.

That was a big mistake on my part.

I'm not striving to be like other humans. I'm striving to be like CHRIST. I've spent so much time measuring myself by the standards of 'wise', Godly men and what they preached that I fell into the biggest and most obvious trap; self-condemnation. I felt like these people knew something I didn't, or that maybe I was wrong for not agreeing with everything they say. But you know what? I don't think that anymore. There is not a single human being that is, or has ever been, on this earth--except for those in the Bible and Jesus Christ--that I will ever truly trust the teachings of. I always, ALWAYS compare arguments to the opposing view; compare it with scripture, pray for clarity & never stop learning. The only way I'd ever trust a man's words fully is if he spoke in nothing but verses from the Bible itself.

This division is killing us. It's killing the church. These stupid arguments over 'temporal' objects and the like is, I feel, deeply distracting us from what we're supposed to be chasing after as hard and fast as we can--JESUS CHRIST!

Nobody knows if it's a sin to watch tv
Nobody knows if it's a sin for women to wear pants
Nobody knows if it's a sin to own nice cars or a big house
Nobody knows if it's a sin to play video games
Nobody knows if it's a sin to drink or smoke at all
Nobody knows if it's a sin to celebrate easter, halloween or christmas

We are NOT called to dispute over these things. I've come to this forum many times asking questions about these temporary things--when really, I should have been just reading my bible and thanking God for every opportunity that I've been given, whether it be the simple pleasure of sitting outside in the morning, worshipping God at my church, spending time with my family, or watching silly videos with my boyfriend. I've spent too much time arguing over what's 'okay' and what's 'not okay' and feeling like I either have to follow someone else's convictions, or make them follow my own.

At the end of the day, all of us could be wrong about anything. And that's OKAY. It's okay to have different doctrines as long as we are trying our hardest to follow God's will with what he has written to us. Don't condemn each other for every little thing; have civil discussions, and if you can't agree--agree to disagree, and then leave each other be. Nobody needs to be the 'heretic' or the 'pharisee'.

I will thank God and give Him glory in everything I do. Whether it be fasting, reading the bible, studying our rich Christian history or having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ--to enjoying the talents of those who make my favorite video games and write the stories for my favorite fantasy worlds, reading the weird mythology of cultures long since dead, or just having fun celebrating halloween as a time not of pagan rituals but as a time to dress up and enjoy some spooky stories and candy with friends and family. I thank God for every experience I have in this world, good or bad, and trust that no matter what He won't let me stray.

Heck, even if you disagree with my views, I still love all of you and I encourage everyone to put aside our differences and just appreciate the fact that we're all running the same race with the same finish line. I think we'd all be a little better off as a whole if we took the time to personally pursue the truth ourselves--not just in the safe sanctuary of a church under a pastor who also just so happens to be another human being like ourselves, subject to bias and the like.

It's sad that Satan has used fear and division for so long to divide us all and distract us from what really matters. It's never been about the doctrines, the works or the 'fire and brimstone' sermons. And it CERTAINLY hasn't been about the Illuminati, the conspiracy theories or the 'hidden messages' --it's been about Jesus Christ, and our walk to be as much like him as possible. After all..

Philippians 4:6 NIV
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

...now in the meantime, I need to work on practicing some love towards those I disagree with and/or dislike too OTL

I hope somebody found something good in my weird ramblings pFFFF

You're exactly right that we shouldn't argue and put each other down about our differences. Paul says, we must be "speaking the truth in love" (Ephesians 4). Satan is at work when we judge and condemn each other (Romans 4).

However, the church is full of sinners, for whom SELF is the most important idol. We are all tempted with that idol, especially when we have a following.

I wonder who you've been listening to, because in Christian Reformed and Reformed churches, I don't hear such put-downs.

My recommendation is that you find a Bible-preaching and Christ-centered church centered around small groups who study the Word directly instead of some book about the Bible. I recommend that to you. I have found God's great blessing reading the Bible from beginning to end in my personal devotions. After several times through it, God has helped me see the great themes that tie together all the parts.

After being exposed to a great variety of beliefs, God led me to the Reformed faith (yes, Calvinism), which many people misunderstand. At its best, it interprets the Bible according to its own assumptions, not those of some human who imposes his interpretation on the Bible. Yes, John Calvin was right when he said, "Go as far as the Bible goes and then stop."

timothyu · Nov 6, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I wouldn't exactly use those kinds of words, but the written works of C.S. Lewis do promote the sin of witchcraft of which the Bible clearly condemns. The sin of witchcraft is just as serious as fornication.

What witchcraft? Curiouser and curiouser.

timothyu · Nov 6, 2019

Ohj1n37 said:
Pride can prevent people from obtaining what they are really after, whether that be to make a big sale like in the wealthy farmer story or to help lead others to Christ and in the worst case, pride can cause the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

Like boasting about being saved or a person diving into scripture to find what gain is in it for themselves?

Halbhh · Nov 6, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
I hope somebody found something good in my weird ramblings

I think you struck several true notes of great value, as we can do if we listen to scripture more with a listening attitude, and less with a defend-our-doctrine-stronghold attitude. If we listen to Christ more than we do to other sources, then it's always the right way. Thanks for sharing your testimony!

Bible Highlighter · Nov 6, 2019

timothyu said:
What witchcraft? Curiouser and curiouser.

Your kidding, right? Come on now. They cast spells in the Narnia series, and they refer to magic, etc. The Bible condemns sorcery and magic. This is the occult. There is only one power and it is GOD.

timothyu · Nov 6, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The Bible condemns sorcery and magic.

That is merely manipulation of man's awareness. Politicians do it all the time. Consider how Jesus kept saying he tells you truth.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 6, 2019

timothyu said:
That is merely manipulation of man's awareness. Politicians do it all the time. Consider how Jesus kept saying he tells you truth.

Your not making any sense. It is pretty clear that they cast spells in the Narnia series. Spell casting is magic, and God condemns any operating of any power outside of Him. If you disagree, then please show Scripture that shows we can indulge in outside strange powers that do not involve God. You will not find any such verse or passage. You merely cannot see it because you most likely like the Narnia series.

timothyu · Nov 6, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
If you disagree, then please show Scripture that shows we can indulge in outside strange powers that do not involve God.

What outside power? We share the same nature as the adversary.

eleos1954 · Nov 6, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
So I had an interesting thought that I wanted to share. Bear with me please, because this might be long.

I'm still taking in as much biblical information as I can, and the more I read about ALL of the debates between denomination over what classifies as sin, what doctrine is correct, who is the real heretic, etc...I kinda realized some things.

Satan's plan to infiltrate the church is not how I thought it was.

Now I'm not talking about disputes over basic biblical truths(such as whether or not it's okay to have premarital sex or something of the like)--but things that are...less important, if at all mentioned in the bible. Listen, in just the past few months, I've read and observed a lot. Some of which include;
- C.S. Lewis was a satanic pagan heretic who despises Christianity and if ANY pastor endorses his Christian works(like mere christianity)then he is a heretic himself and should be ashamed
- It's sinful for women to wear pants
- A woman thought that ANY and ALL cartoons were satanic and sending children to hell because of a 'vision' she had in a dream
- Rock music is secretly satantic worship messages
- Metal is evil because the 'beat' is aggressive
- Paul Washer(whom I really look up to)is a false prophet who pushes calvinism and causes people to stray from Jesus
- Anyone basically who doesn't believe in the 'right' doctrine is heretical and will burn in hell
- All holidays are evil because of their pagan roots, and if you celebrate any form of them, you're pretty much betraying Christ
- Contemplative prayer is anti-biblical because it resembles 'eastern tradition' and isn't mentioned in the bible

I mean...look at that list. The more I observe a lot of Christian communities, the more that I see what's going on in the background. There's so much competition between doctrines and beliefs, I have to wonder; are we missing the point? I understand that we are to rebuke our brothers and sisters when they are sinning, but what gives us the authority to argue over Christ-centered doctrine? So long as it's not promoting sin...what of it? I see a lot of Christians viciously attacking each other with the belief that 'their' doctrine is right, and become so arrogant that they feel as though they have the authority to tell people whether or not they're going to hell. Whether or not they're truly CHRISTIANS. Let's face it; Jesus Christ may be the only way to salvation, but it seems like that 'long narrow path' might actually have to be SEVERAL long narrow paths at this point.

I've dedicated myself to learning the truth about the bible; about Christianity. But the more I learn, the more I hear the arguments from all sides, the more I think of this particular verse...

Titus 3:9-11 NIV
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
...and the more I realize, we really are all missing the point.

How are we supposed to glorify God when we're busy condemning others?
How are we to claim we're loving just as Jesus Christ was when we use such harsh words like 'heretic', 'apostate', 'satanic' to describe our brothers and sisters who believe in the same sins, the same God, the same Jesus that died on the cross for all of our sins...all because they differ in doctrine? Is that not hate???
How are we supposed to grow in our relationship with God when we're only concerned with how 'holy' or 'correct' we appear to everyone around us?
How do we even know we're right with our doctrine?
How do we know those who disagree with us are wrong?

I'm sick and tired of it, truly. I myself do have disagreements with people over doctrine, and that's OKAY. I'm not saying you shouldn't voice an opinion if you think that something isn't biblically sound. But at the same time, it seems like very few people have the humility to admit that they could be wrong with their own argument--or that, heaven forbid, the subject matter is up to one's personal conviction. No, it's always "The verses I pulled up MYSELF say that you're wrong" or those condescending remarks of "Only the Holy Spirit can help you" when they realize you aren't caving in your own convictions--as if your version of God is different than mine and will suddenly enlighten me on why you're the holy one and I'm not???

The PRIDE displayed is unbelievable. None of us, not a single one is qualified to be the final judge on whether our interpretation of something in the bible is true or not. Just because someone has a different viewpoint, doesn't mean they're automatically a hedonistic heretic. Likewise, I'm sick of the word 'legalistic' being thrown around. Yes, there are a lot of real legalists out there; and no, they probably aren't the ones who are genuinely concerned with your spiritual state and think that you should make some changes in your life. There are a lot of EXTREMELY devout Christians whom I look up to who are full of zeal and considered 'legalistic' by people, I'm sure. Even I sometimes disagree with what they talk about. I once, admittedly, felt shameful that I wasn't as 'holy' or 'perfect' as they appeared to be--and I began to shy away from learning from them, that if I fell short of what they were, I wasn't good enough for Christ.

That was a big mistake on my part.

I'm not striving to be like other humans. I'm striving to be like CHRIST. I've spent so much time measuring myself by the standards of 'wise', Godly men and what they preached that I fell into the biggest and most obvious trap; self-condemnation. I felt like these people knew something I didn't, or that maybe I was wrong for not agreeing with everything they say. But you know what? I don't think that anymore. There is not a single human being that is, or has ever been, on this earth--except for those in the Bible and Jesus Christ--that I will ever truly trust the teachings of. I always, ALWAYS compare arguments to the opposing view; compare it with scripture, pray for clarity & never stop learning. The only way I'd ever trust a man's words fully is if he spoke in nothing but verses from the Bible itself.

This division is killing us. It's killing the church. These stupid arguments over 'temporal' objects and the like is, I feel, deeply distracting us from what we're supposed to be chasing after as hard and fast as we can--JESUS CHRIST!

Nobody knows if it's a sin to watch tv
Nobody knows if it's a sin for women to wear pants
Nobody knows if it's a sin to own nice cars or a big house
Nobody knows if it's a sin to play video games
Nobody knows if it's a sin to drink or smoke at all
Nobody knows if it's a sin to celebrate easter, halloween or christmas

We are NOT called to dispute over these things. I've come to this forum many times asking questions about these temporary things--when really, I should have been just reading my bible and thanking God for every opportunity that I've been given, whether it be the simple pleasure of sitting outside in the morning, worshipping God at my church, spending time with my family, or watching silly videos with my boyfriend. I've spent too much time arguing over what's 'okay' and what's 'not okay' and feeling like I either have to follow someone else's convictions, or make them follow my own.

At the end of the day, all of us could be wrong about anything. And that's OKAY. It's okay to have different doctrines as long as we are trying our hardest to follow God's will with what he has written to us. Don't condemn each other for every little thing; have civil discussions, and if you can't agree--agree to disagree, and then leave each other be. Nobody needs to be the 'heretic' or the 'pharisee'.

I will thank God and give Him glory in everything I do. Whether it be fasting, reading the bible, studying our rich Christian history or having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ--to enjoying the talents of those who make my favorite video games and write the stories for my favorite fantasy worlds, reading the weird mythology of cultures long since dead, or just having fun celebrating halloween as a time not of pagan rituals but as a time to dress up and enjoy some spooky stories and candy with friends and family. I thank God for every experience I have in this world, good or bad, and trust that no matter what He won't let me stray.

Heck, even if you disagree with my views, I still love all of you and I encourage everyone to put aside our differences and just appreciate the fact that we're all running the same race with the same finish line. I think we'd all be a little better off as a whole if we took the time to personally pursue the truth ourselves--not just in the safe sanctuary of a church under a pastor who also just so happens to be another human being like ourselves, subject to bias and the like.

It's not the what .... it's the how.

It's sad that Satan has used fear and division for so long to divide us all and distract us from what really matters. It's never been about the doctrines, the works or the 'fire and brimstone' sermons. And it CERTAINLY hasn't been about the Illuminati, the conspiracy theories or the 'hidden messages' --it's been about Jesus Christ, and our walk to be as much like him as possible. After all..

Philippians 4:6 NIV
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

...now in the meantime, I need to work on practicing some love towards those I disagree with and/or dislike too OTL

I hope somebody found something good in my weird ramblings pFFFF

It is ok to discuss scriptures and yes people have different interpretations/view points about them ... but sometimes are not very kind in conveying those differences without adverse (unfavorable) emotions coming out ... unfortunately that's part of our fallen nature.

Best people study Gods Word for themselves and when discussing differences be mindful of doing it in a civil/respectful way.

People are passionate about what they believe and sometimes their emotions get the best of them ... or maybe ... brings out the worst in them. Also ... sometimes because of this platform being mainly "text" ... conversation is misunderstood ... misquoted etc.

And I Agree with you ... Agree to disagree and leave it at that ... and I do try to do that.

In the end .... study scripture and ask the Holy Spirit to help discern the truth of scripture, we all know each of us are responsible for what they believe, how we treat others ... what we think, say and do. I thank the Lord it is a personal relationship with Him and not a corporate "church" relationship. Gods people transcends all of them. His sheep are scattered and His people are everywhere ... and He knows who they are.

John 10:14
New International Version
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--

And you are also correct ... Follow the Lamb wherever he Goes!

Lord help us all to be kinder to one another, especially when we are conversing about your Holy Word. Amen.

Look forward to getting to know you ;o)

SoLaVeoMiDinDeia · Nov 6, 2019

Look at all the division among all of you.
Yet you will claim to be brethren in Christ.

There is no division in Christ.
There is no division among them that have the anointing.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing
teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,
and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

timothyu · Nov 6, 2019

SoLaVeoMiDinDeia said:
There is no division among them that have the anointing.

Right.. no division within the Kingdom. But there is division between the Kingdom and the contrasting world of man, and of course within the world itself.

SoLaVeoMiDinDeia · Nov 6, 2019

timothyu said:
Right.. no division within the Kingdom. But there is division between the Kingdom and the contrasting world of man, and of course within the world itself.

Is christianforums.com in the Kingdom?

timothyu · Nov 6, 2019

SoLaVeoMiDinDeia said:
Is christianforums.com in the Kingdom?

Not that I have seen as a whole.

Swan7 · Nov 6, 2019

Amen. I truly hear you on this one and it's actually why I don't participate in CF nearly as much as I used to. It's full of unnecessary arguments - even just giving simple encouragement seems to be rejected sometimes. It really saddens me to see that.

I also fell in that trap you spoke of as well. I thought what is the point to be as good as Christ when I can't even measure up to Him? I was completely wrong in that view, but God didn't give up on me and my heart was still desiring Him.

Awesome post and a great reminder to what's been going on for a VERY long time.

Anguspure · Nov 7, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
So I had an interesting thought that I wanted to share. Bear with me please, because this might be long.

I'm still taking in as much biblical information as I can, and the more I read about ALL of the debates between denomination over what classifies as sin, what doctrine is correct, who is the real heretic, etc...I kinda realized some things.

Satan's plan to infiltrate the church is not how I thought it was.

Now I'm not talking about disputes over basic biblical truths(such as whether or not it's okay to have premarital sex or something of the like)--but things that are...less important, if at all mentioned in the bible. Listen, in just the past few months, I've read and observed a lot. Some of which include;
- C.S. Lewis was a satanic pagan heretic who despises Christianity and if ANY pastor endorses his Christian works(like mere christianity)then he is a heretic himself and should be ashamed
- It's sinful for women to wear pants
- A woman thought that ANY and ALL cartoons were satanic and sending children to hell because of a 'vision' she had in a dream
- Rock music is secretly satantic worship messages
- Metal is evil because the 'beat' is aggressive
- Paul Washer(whom I really look up to)is a false prophet who pushes calvinism and causes people to stray from Jesus
- Anyone basically who doesn't believe in the 'right' doctrine is heretical and will burn in hell
- All holidays are evil because of their pagan roots, and if you celebrate any form of them, you're pretty much betraying Christ
- Contemplative prayer is anti-biblical because it resembles 'eastern tradition' and isn't mentioned in the bible

I mean...look at that list. The more I observe a lot of Christian communities, the more that I see what's going on in the background. There's so much competition between doctrines and beliefs, I have to wonder; are we missing the point? I understand that we are to rebuke our brothers and sisters when they are sinning, but what gives us the authority to argue over Christ-centered doctrine? So long as it's not promoting sin...what of it? I see a lot of Christians viciously attacking each other with the belief that 'their' doctrine is right, and become so arrogant that they feel as though they have the authority to tell people whether or not they're going to hell. Whether or not they're truly CHRISTIANS. Let's face it; Jesus Christ may be the only way to salvation, but it seems like that 'long narrow path' might actually have to be SEVERAL long narrow paths at this point.

I've dedicated myself to learning the truth about the bible; about Christianity. But the more I learn, the more I hear the arguments from all sides, the more I think of this particular verse...

Titus 3:9-11 NIV
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
...and the more I realize, we really are all missing the point.

How are we supposed to glorify God when we're busy condemning others?
How are we to claim we're loving just as Jesus Christ was when we use such harsh words like 'heretic', 'apostate', 'satanic' to describe our brothers and sisters who believe in the same sins, the same God, the same Jesus that died on the cross for all of our sins...all because they differ in doctrine? Is that not hate???
How are we supposed to grow in our relationship with God when we're only concerned with how 'holy' or 'correct' we appear to everyone around us?
How do we even know we're right with our doctrine?
How do we know those who disagree with us are wrong?

I'm sick and tired of it, truly. I myself do have disagreements with people over doctrine, and that's OKAY. I'm not saying you shouldn't voice an opinion if you think that something isn't biblically sound. But at the same time, it seems like very few people have the humility to admit that they could be wrong with their own argument--or that, heaven forbid, the subject matter is up to one's personal conviction. No, it's always "The verses I pulled up MYSELF say that you're wrong" or those condescending remarks of "Only the Holy Spirit can help you" when they realize you aren't caving in your own convictions--as if your version of God is different than mine and will suddenly enlighten me on why you're the holy one and I'm not???

The PRIDE displayed is unbelievable. None of us, not a single one is qualified to be the final judge on whether our interpretation of something in the bible is true or not. Just because someone has a different viewpoint, doesn't mean they're automatically a hedonistic heretic. Likewise, I'm sick of the word 'legalistic' being thrown around. Yes, there are a lot of real legalists out there; and no, they probably aren't the ones who are genuinely concerned with your spiritual state and think that you should make some changes in your life. There are a lot of EXTREMELY devout Christians whom I look up to who are full of zeal and considered 'legalistic' by people, I'm sure. Even I sometimes disagree with what they talk about. I once, admittedly, felt shameful that I wasn't as 'holy' or 'perfect' as they appeared to be--and I began to shy away from learning from them, that if I fell short of what they were, I wasn't good enough for Christ.

That was a big mistake on my part.

I'm not striving to be like other humans. I'm striving to be like CHRIST. I've spent so much time measuring myself by the standards of 'wise', Godly men and what they preached that I fell into the biggest and most obvious trap; self-condemnation. I felt like these people knew something I didn't, or that maybe I was wrong for not agreeing with everything they say. But you know what? I don't think that anymore. There is not a single human being that is, or has ever been, on this earth--except for those in the Bible and Jesus Christ--that I will ever truly trust the teachings of. I always, ALWAYS compare arguments to the opposing view; compare it with scripture, pray for clarity & never stop learning. The only way I'd ever trust a man's words fully is if he spoke in nothing but verses from the Bible itself.

This division is killing us. It's killing the church. These stupid arguments over 'temporal' objects and the like is, I feel, deeply distracting us from what we're supposed to be chasing after as hard and fast as we can--JESUS CHRIST!

Nobody knows if it's a sin to watch tv
Nobody knows if it's a sin for women to wear pants
Nobody knows if it's a sin to own nice cars or a big house
Nobody knows if it's a sin to play video games
Nobody knows if it's a sin to drink or smoke at all
Nobody knows if it's a sin to celebrate easter, halloween or christmas

We are NOT called to dispute over these things. I've come to this forum many times asking questions about these temporary things--when really, I should have been just reading my bible and thanking God for every opportunity that I've been given, whether it be the simple pleasure of sitting outside in the morning, worshipping God at my church, spending time with my family, or watching silly videos with my boyfriend. I've spent too much time arguing over what's 'okay' and what's 'not okay' and feeling like I either have to follow someone else's convictions, or make them follow my own.

At the end of the day, all of us could be wrong about anything. And that's OKAY. It's okay to have different doctrines as long as we are trying our hardest to follow God's will with what he has written to us. Don't condemn each other for every little thing; have civil discussions, and if you can't agree--agree to disagree, and then leave each other be. Nobody needs to be the 'heretic' or the 'pharisee'.

I will thank God and give Him glory in everything I do. Whether it be fasting, reading the bible, studying our rich Christian history or having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ--to enjoying the talents of those who make my favorite video games and write the stories for my favorite fantasy worlds, reading the weird mythology of cultures long since dead, or just having fun celebrating halloween as a time not of pagan rituals but as a time to dress up and enjoy some spooky stories and candy with friends and family. I thank God for every experience I have in this world, good or bad, and trust that no matter what He won't let me stray.

Heck, even if you disagree with my views, I still love all of you and I encourage everyone to put aside our differences and just appreciate the fact that we're all running the same race with the same finish line. I think we'd all be a little better off as a whole if we took the time to personally pursue the truth ourselves--not just in the safe sanctuary of a church under a pastor who also just so happens to be another human being like ourselves, subject to bias and the like.

It's sad that Satan has used fear and division for so long to divide us all and distract us from what really matters. It's never been about the doctrines, the works or the 'fire and brimstone' sermons. And it CERTAINLY hasn't been about the Illuminati, the conspiracy theories or the 'hidden messages' --it's been about Jesus Christ, and our walk to be as much like him as possible. After all..

Philippians 4:6 NIV
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

...now in the meantime, I need to work on practicing some love towards those I disagree with and/or dislike too OTL

I hope somebody found something good in my weird ramblings pFFFF

Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Ephesian 4

Anguspure · Nov 7, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Your not making any sense. It is pretty clear that they cast spells in the Narnia series. Spell casting is magic, and God condemns any operating of any power outside of Him. If you disagree, then please show Scripture that shows we can indulge in outside strange powers that do not involve God. You will not find any such verse or passage. You merely cannot see it because you most likely like the Narnia series.

The Bible has at least one Witch in it who has a seance to raise a man from the dead...and then there are a few other people besides: A man who gets drunk after a while at sea, a man who gets his wifes servant pregnant, another one who murders a friend so he can marry his wife. Then there is the guy who had 500 wives and 500 girlfriends to choose from, a woman who is an icon of toxic feminism, then going back again there was a prostitute who married into the royal line and a con artist who tricks his brother out of an inheritance.
Makes a bit of spell casting in a story told as a childs parable of Christ seem quite harmless really.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 7, 2019

Anguspure said:
The Bible has at least one Witch in it who has a seance to raise a man from the dead...and then there are a few other people besides: A man who gets drunk after a while at sea, a man who gets his wifes servant pregnant, another one who murders a friend so he can marry his wife. Then there is the guy who had 500 wives and 500 girlfriends to choose from, a woman who is an icon of toxic feminism, then going back again there was a prostitute who married into the royal line and a con artist who tricks his brother out of an inheritance.
Makes a bit of spell casting in a story told as a childs parable of Christ seem quite harmless really.

The difference is that GOD condemns witchcraft, and one of the reasons God condemns Saul to death is for contacting a witch. All the other sins you mention in the Bible are also condemned, as well; And it teaches that there were bad consequences for doing those sins, too.

NeedyFollower · Nov 7, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
So I had an interesting thought that I wanted to share. Bear with me please, because this might be long.

I'm still taking in as much biblical information as I can, and the more I read about ALL of the debates between denomination over what classifies as sin, what doctrine is correct, who is the real heretic, etc...I kinda realized some things.

Satan's plan to infiltrate the church is not how I thought it was.

Now I'm not talking about disputes over basic biblical truths(such as whether or not it's okay to have premarital sex or something of the like)--but things that are...less important, if at all mentioned in the bible. Listen, in just the past few months, I've read and observed a lot. Some of which include;
- C.S. Lewis was a satanic pagan heretic who despises Christianity and if ANY pastor endorses his Christian works(like mere christianity)then he is a heretic himself and should be ashamed
- It's sinful for women to wear pants
- A woman thought that ANY and ALL cartoons were satanic and sending children to hell because of a 'vision' she had in a dream
- Rock music is secretly satantic worship messages
- Metal is evil because the 'beat' is aggressive
- Paul Washer(whom I really look up to)is a false prophet who pushes calvinism and causes people to stray from Jesus
- Anyone basically who doesn't believe in the 'right' doctrine is heretical and will burn in hell
- All holidays are evil because of their pagan roots, and if you celebrate any form of them, you're pretty much betraying Christ
- Contemplative prayer is anti-biblical because it resembles 'eastern tradition' and isn't mentioned in the bible

I mean...look at that list. The more I observe a lot of Christian communities, the more that I see what's going on in the background. There's so much competition between doctrines and beliefs, I have to wonder; are we missing the point? I understand that we are to rebuke our brothers and sisters when they are sinning, but what gives us the authority to argue over Christ-centered doctrine? So long as it's not promoting sin...what of it? I see a lot of Christians viciously attacking each other with the belief that 'their' doctrine is right, and become so arrogant that they feel as though they have the authority to tell people whether or not they're going to hell. Whether or not they're truly CHRISTIANS. Let's face it; Jesus Christ may be the only way to salvation, but it seems like that 'long narrow path' might actually have to be SEVERAL long narrow paths at this point.

I've dedicated myself to learning the truth about the bible; about Christianity. But the more I learn, the more I hear the arguments from all sides, the more I think of this particular verse...

Titus 3:9-11 NIV
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
...and the more I realize, we really are all missing the point.

How are we supposed to glorify God when we're busy condemning others?
How are we to claim we're loving just as Jesus Christ was when we use such harsh words like 'heretic', 'apostate', 'satanic' to describe our brothers and sisters who believe in the same sins, the same God, the same Jesus that died on the cross for all of our sins...all because they differ in doctrine? Is that not hate???
How are we supposed to grow in our relationship with God when we're only concerned with how 'holy' or 'correct' we appear to everyone around us?
How do we even know we're right with our doctrine?
How do we know those who disagree with us are wrong?

I'm sick and tired of it, truly. I myself do have disagreements with people over doctrine, and that's OKAY. I'm not saying you shouldn't voice an opinion if you think that something isn't biblically sound. But at the same time, it seems like very few people have the humility to admit that they could be wrong with their own argument--or that, heaven forbid, the subject matter is up to one's personal conviction. No, it's always "The verses I pulled up MYSELF say that you're wrong" or those condescending remarks of "Only the Holy Spirit can help you" when they realize you aren't caving in your own convictions--as if your version of God is different than mine and will suddenly enlighten me on why you're the holy one and I'm not???

The PRIDE displayed is unbelievable. None of us, not a single one is qualified to be the final judge on whether our interpretation of something in the bible is true or not. Just because someone has a different viewpoint, doesn't mean they're automatically a hedonistic heretic. Likewise, I'm sick of the word 'legalistic' being thrown around. Yes, there are a lot of real legalists out there; and no, they probably aren't the ones who are genuinely concerned with your spiritual state and think that you should make some changes in your life. There are a lot of EXTREMELY devout Christians whom I look up to who are full of zeal and considered 'legalistic' by people, I'm sure. Even I sometimes disagree with what they talk about. I once, admittedly, felt shameful that I wasn't as 'holy' or 'perfect' as they appeared to be--and I began to shy away from learning from them, that if I fell short of what they were, I wasn't good enough for Christ.

That was a big mistake on my part.

I'm not striving to be like other humans. I'm striving to be like CHRIST. I've spent so much time measuring myself by the standards of 'wise', Godly men and what they preached that I fell into the biggest and most obvious trap; self-condemnation. I felt like these people knew something I didn't, or that maybe I was wrong for not agreeing with everything they say. But you know what? I don't think that anymore. There is not a single human being that is, or has ever been, on this earth--except for those in the Bible and Jesus Christ--that I will ever truly trust the teachings of. I always, ALWAYS compare arguments to the opposing view; compare it with scripture, pray for clarity & never stop learning. The only way I'd ever trust a man's words fully is if he spoke in nothing but verses from the Bible itself.

This division is killing us. It's killing the church. These stupid arguments over 'temporal' objects and the like is, I feel, deeply distracting us from what we're supposed to be chasing after as hard and fast as we can--JESUS CHRIST!

Nobody knows if it's a sin to watch tv
Nobody knows if it's a sin for women to wear pants
Nobody knows if it's a sin to own nice cars or a big house
Nobody knows if it's a sin to play video games
Nobody knows if it's a sin to drink or smoke at all
Nobody knows if it's a sin to celebrate easter, halloween or christmas

We are NOT called to dispute over these things. I've come to this forum many times asking questions about these temporary things--when really, I should have been just reading my bible and thanking God for every opportunity that I've been given, whether it be the simple pleasure of sitting outside in the morning, worshipping God at my church, spending time with my family, or watching silly videos with my boyfriend. I've spent too much time arguing over what's 'okay' and what's 'not okay' and feeling like I either have to follow someone else's convictions, or make them follow my own.

At the end of the day, all of us could be wrong about anything. And that's OKAY. It's okay to have different doctrines as long as we are trying our hardest to follow God's will with what he has written to us. Don't condemn each other for every little thing; have civil discussions, and if you can't agree--agree to disagree, and then leave each other be. Nobody needs to be the 'heretic' or the 'pharisee'.

I will thank God and give Him glory in everything I do. Whether it be fasting, reading the bible, studying our rich Christian history or having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ--to enjoying the talents of those who make my favorite video games and write the stories for my favorite fantasy worlds, reading the weird mythology of cultures long since dead, or just having fun celebrating halloween as a time not of pagan rituals but as a time to dress up and enjoy some spooky stories and candy with friends and family. I thank God for every experience I have in this world, good or bad, and trust that no matter what He won't let me stray.

Heck, even if you disagree with my views, I still love all of you and I encourage everyone to put aside our differences and just appreciate the fact that we're all running the same race with the same finish line. I think we'd all be a little better off as a whole if we took the time to personally pursue the truth ourselves--not just in the safe sanctuary of a church under a pastor who also just so happens to be another human being like ourselves, subject to bias and the like.

It's sad that Satan has used fear and division for so long to divide us all and distract us from what really matters. It's never been about the doctrines, the works or the 'fire and brimstone' sermons. And it CERTAINLY hasn't been about the Illuminati, the conspiracy theories or the 'hidden messages' --it's been about Jesus Christ, and our walk to be as much like him as possible. After all..

Philippians 4:6 NIV
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

...now in the meantime, I need to work on practicing some love towards those I disagree with and/or dislike too OTL

I hope somebody found something good in my weird ramblings pFFFF

Well sister Jesus did say He came to bring a sword. Our divisions and differences show how carnal ( fleshly ) we still are as a body . ( Paul says we are not ready for meat but still need milk . )
I think there are different levels of growth and Jesus alluded to this when He said in Luke 12:47 . " That servant who knows his master's will but does not get ready and does not follow his master's instruction will be beaten with many blows . But the one who unwittingly does things worthy of punishment will be beaten with a few blows . "
Jesus also tells the various churches in revelation to repent ...it seems many had lost their first love and others were committing fornication with the world ( The Harlot ) . For whom He loves He rebukes.
Regarding various extra-biblical teachings ...music , TV , clothes and so forth ...I think there are many distractions which steal our time when prayer is so needed ...there are so many lost and so little time . As for fashions ...who cares provided we are not trying to tempt someone or cause them to stumble . The fashion of this world passes away and the bible tells us how to dress . 1 Peter 5:5 ( Be ye clothed in humility . )
So is "XYZ" sinful ? I think maybe the better question is " Is it fruitful " ?
In Isaiah 9:16 , it says " For the leaders of this people cause them to err and those who are led of them are destroyed . " Who are our leaders ? The preacher ? ..the politician ? Friends ? Actually whoever we allow ourselves to be led by are our leaders . Hollywood ..New York ..Nashville .. Washington , DC
So sister I say this not to cast a snare but rather to have you discern . Jesus said learn of me , I am lowly and meek . Jesus never sought His own glory . John 5 :44 ..How can you believe , which receive honor from one another and seek not the honor which comes from God alone . Hard to be known or famous without seeking glory ...It is extremely competitive. Look to wise men who do not have an agenda other than your eternal well being ...Old men ..like Isaiah ,...Micah ...Paul ..James ..John , and of course Jesus ...( who spoke through these men . ) Meek and lowly ...humbleness of mind . Be wise sister .

Runner duck · Nov 8, 2019

theoneandonlypencil said:
So I had an interesting thought that I wanted to share. Bear with me please, because this might be long.

I'm still taking in as much biblical information as I can, and the more I read about ALL of the debates between denomination over what classifies as sin, what doctrine is correct, who is the real heretic, etc...I kinda realized some things.

Satan's plan to infiltrate the church is not how I thought it was.

Now I'm not talking about disputes over basic biblical truths(such as whether or not it's okay to have premarital sex or something of the like)--but things that are...less important, if at all mentioned in the bible. Listen, in just the past few months, I've read and observed a lot. Some of which include;
- C.S. Lewis was a satanic pagan heretic who despises Christianity and if ANY pastor endorses his Christian works(like mere christianity)then he is a heretic himself and should be ashamed
- It's sinful for women to wear pants
- A woman thought that ANY and ALL cartoons were satanic and sending children to hell because of a 'vision' she had in a dream
- Rock music is secretly satantic worship messages
- Metal is evil because the 'beat' is aggressive
- Paul Washer(whom I really look up to)is a false prophet who pushes calvinism and causes people to stray from Jesus
- Anyone basically who doesn't believe in the 'right' doctrine is heretical and will burn in hell
- All holidays are evil because of their pagan roots, and if you celebrate any form of them, you're pretty much betraying Christ
- Contemplative prayer is anti-biblical because it resembles 'eastern tradition' and isn't mentioned in the bible

I mean...look at that list. The more I observe a lot of Christian communities, the more that I see what's going on in the background. There's so much competition between doctrines and beliefs, I have to wonder; are we missing the point? I understand that we are to rebuke our brothers and sisters when they are sinning, but what gives us the authority to argue over Christ-centered doctrine? So long as it's not promoting sin...what of it? I see a lot of Christians viciously attacking each other with the belief that 'their' doctrine is right, and become so arrogant that they feel as though they have the authority to tell people whether or not they're going to hell. Whether or not they're truly CHRISTIANS. Let's face it; Jesus Christ may be the only way to salvation, but it seems like that 'long narrow path' might actually have to be SEVERAL long narrow paths at this point.

I've dedicated myself to learning the truth about the bible; about Christianity. But the more I learn, the more I hear the arguments from all sides, the more I think of this particular verse...

Titus 3:9-11 NIV
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
...and the more I realize, we really are all missing the point.

How are we supposed to glorify God when we're busy condemning others?
How are we to claim we're loving just as Jesus Christ was when we use such harsh words like 'heretic', 'apostate', 'satanic' to describe our brothers and sisters who believe in the same sins, the same God, the same Jesus that died on the cross for all of our sins...all because they differ in doctrine? Is that not hate???
How are we supposed to grow in our relationship with God when we're only concerned with how 'holy' or 'correct' we appear to everyone around us?
How do we even know we're right with our doctrine?
How do we know those who disagree with us are wrong?

I'm sick and tired of it, truly. I myself do have disagreements with people over doctrine, and that's OKAY. I'm not saying you shouldn't voice an opinion if you think that something isn't biblically sound. But at the same time, it seems like very few people have the humility to admit that they could be wrong with their own argument--or that, heaven forbid, the subject matter is up to one's personal conviction. No, it's always "The verses I pulled up MYSELF say that you're wrong" or those condescending remarks of "Only the Holy Spirit can help you" when they realize you aren't caving in your own convictions--as if your version of God is different than mine and will suddenly enlighten me on why you're the holy one and I'm not???

The PRIDE displayed is unbelievable. None of us, not a single one is qualified to be the final judge on whether our interpretation of something in the bible is true or not. Just because someone has a different viewpoint, doesn't mean they're automatically a hedonistic heretic. Likewise, I'm sick of the word 'legalistic' being thrown around. Yes, there are a lot of real legalists out there; and no, they probably aren't the ones who are genuinely concerned with your spiritual state and think that you should make some changes in your life. There are a lot of EXTREMELY devout Christians whom I look up to who are full of zeal and considered 'legalistic' by people, I'm sure. Even I sometimes disagree with what they talk about. I once, admittedly, felt shameful that I wasn't as 'holy' or 'perfect' as they appeared to be--and I began to shy away from learning from them, that if I fell short of what they were, I wasn't good enough for Christ.

That was a big mistake on my part.

I'm not striving to be like other humans. I'm striving to be like CHRIST. I've spent so much time measuring myself by the standards of 'wise', Godly men and what they preached that I fell into the biggest and most obvious trap; self-condemnation. I felt like these people knew something I didn't, or that maybe I was wrong for not agreeing with everything they say. But you know what? I don't think that anymore. There is not a single human being that is, or has ever been, on this earth--except for those in the Bible and Jesus Christ--that I will ever truly trust the teachings of. I always, ALWAYS compare arguments to the opposing view; compare it with scripture, pray for clarity & never stop learning. The only way I'd ever trust a man's words fully is if he spoke in nothing but verses from the Bible itself.

This division is killing us. It's killing the church. These stupid arguments over 'temporal' objects and the like is, I feel, deeply distracting us from what we're supposed to be chasing after as hard and fast as we can--JESUS CHRIST!

Nobody knows if it's a sin to watch tv
Nobody knows if it's a sin for women to wear pants
Nobody knows if it's a sin to own nice cars or a big house
Nobody knows if it's a sin to play video games
Nobody knows if it's a sin to drink or smoke at all
Nobody knows if it's a sin to celebrate easter, halloween or christmas

We are NOT called to dispute over these things. I've come to this forum many times asking questions about these temporary things--when really, I should have been just reading my bible and thanking God for every opportunity that I've been given, whether it be the simple pleasure of sitting outside in the morning, worshipping God at my church, spending time with my family, or watching silly videos with my boyfriend. I've spent too much time arguing over what's 'okay' and what's 'not okay' and feeling like I either have to follow someone else's convictions, or make them follow my own.

At the end of the day, all of us could be wrong about anything. And that's OKAY. It's okay to have different doctrines as long as we are trying our hardest to follow God's will with what he has written to us. Don't condemn each other for every little thing; have civil discussions, and if you can't agree--agree to disagree, and then leave each other be. Nobody needs to be the 'heretic' or the 'pharisee'.

I will thank God and give Him glory in everything I do. Whether it be fasting, reading the bible, studying our rich Christian history or having fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ--to enjoying the talents of those who make my favorite video games and write the stories for my favorite fantasy worlds, reading the weird mythology of cultures long since dead, or just having fun celebrating halloween as a time not of pagan rituals but as a time to dress up and enjoy some spooky stories and candy with friends and family. I thank God for every experience I have in this world, good or bad, and trust that no matter what He won't let me stray.

Heck, even if you disagree with my views, I still love all of you and I encourage everyone to put aside our differences and just appreciate the fact that we're all running the same race with the same finish line. I think we'd all be a little better off as a whole if we took the time to personally pursue the truth ourselves--not just in the safe sanctuary of a church under a pastor who also just so happens to be another human being like ourselves, subject to bias and the like.

It's sad that Satan has used fear and division for so long to divide us all and distract us from what really matters. It's never been about the doctrines, the works or the 'fire and brimstone' sermons. And it CERTAINLY hasn't been about the Illuminati, the conspiracy theories or the 'hidden messages' --it's been about Jesus Christ, and our walk to be as much like him as possible. After all..

Philippians 4:6 NIV
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

...now in the meantime, I need to work on practicing some love towards those I disagree with and/or dislike too OTL

I hope somebody found something good in my weird ramblings pFFFF

Wow...my first read after a long absence. I’m encouraged.
....I was fortunate to see this early in my walk with Christ.
Forums like these expose the hearts and minds of people you would never necessarily know what they were thinking.
Don’t allow it to get you down. God still loves them. They just may not be reflecting His glory at the moment. None of us is perfect until He returns
God bless...and thanks

I think I just had an epiphany

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