I tested a rich Christian

FireDragon76 · Mar 3, 2023

tampasteve said:
Right, so remove your own planks before judging other people on theirs. It isn't saying to remove other people's specs for them or point them out to them. The point I am making with the scripture works with the full verse quote

I don't think that delegitemizes calling out potential hypocrisy. Nobody is required to boast that they are free from material concerns.

tampasteve · Mar 3, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I don't think that delegitemizes calling out potential hypocrisy. Nobody is required to boast that they are free from material concerns.

Fair enough. But how we go about it matters. We are supposed to approach the person in private, then their elders.

The situation created here put the person being called out in a position that they had no real way to come out of in a good way. There are better ways to call out someone for hypocrisy.

FireDragon76 · Mar 3, 2023

tampasteve said:
Fair enough. But how we go about it matters. We are supposed to approach the person in private, then their elders.

The situation created here put the person being called out in a position that they had no real way to come out of in a good way. There are better ways to call out someone for hypocrisy.

I guess it depends on what people are doing with their boasting, who is being harmed, and how serious it is in general. If it's public and egregious, it should be called out in public.

FireDragon76 · Mar 3, 2023

I do think in general in North America, many Christians are too casual about questions of stewardship of wealth, in contrast to the early Church.

dzheremi · Mar 3, 2023

I'm not impressed by anyone in that story. I don't mean to sound cheesy, but it follows from the claims of our religion that everyone who has Christ is truly wealthy, and everything else is in some sense just window dressing. "Do not love the world, for the world is passing away" and all. That anyone would think therefore that we do not have a duty to those less fortunate just tells me that they have not taken to heart the parable of the widow and the two mites (which shows that even those who do not have much to give are still richly rewarded for giving of what they have), just as anyone who thinks that they are to boast in their charity or their lack of attachment to material things or any of this other stuff probably could stand to review the worldview expressed in the epistles of St. Paul, which remind us that we are to boast in nothing but in the cross of Christ.

If you want to give, look up what sorts of programs are being run in your diocese or individual church. There is probably something to do, and it is better to focus on what you can do rather than on what others can do but aren't doing, or might not be doing to your specifications or whatever. And just as a reminder: even monks who ideally have as little as is needed to function are still obliged to give. I personally witnessed the people of St. Shenouda the Archmandrite monastery providing food for local homeless and/or food-insecure people in Rochester, NY when I was there, and they neither boasted of their charity nor admonished anyone through it. So even if you yourself need charity (as we all do, at least sometimes), there is something to be said for rolling up your own sleeves when you see an opportunity to do so. Often times you will find people who need your time or your ear more so than your money, and being compassionate towards your fellow human beings who are struggling costs nothing.

Pavel Mosko · Mar 3, 2023

BobRyan said:
And what about the Word of God? Does it matter in the case of this topic in your POV?

timewerx said:
So I tested him on the things he wrote. One thing about this rich Christian pensioner, he had lots of cars for his own use only. He doesn't collect cars but he has different vehicles for different occasions. Some of them expensive, some are just regular sedans like most people drive to work.

Everyone in the forum knows me for having plenty of car problems with my old beat up car. So I asked this rich member if he can give me one of his car that's working perfectly fine to replace my old beat up car. He says he can't. I gave him a 2nd option, if he can't give up any of his cars due to sentimental value, he can send me money instead so I can find a good used car to replace my old beat up car. Again, he said no and he told me not because he doesn't trust me nor doesn't like me, he just wouldn't do it.

So I reasoned with him. He had plenty of 'disposable money', cars he can give away without problem. If he doesn't value money nor material things anymore, he shouldn't have any problems giving them to those who may need it so badly.

He gave a final reply he just can't with a smiley. He did not give any reason nor tried to debate the topic. From that point on, I never saw him write about his his beliefs about money and material things anymore. He also stopped telling about his Christianity. I wonder sometimes if I overdid it or did just right. After all, it would seem his intentions are in the wrong place and I made him out to be a hypocrite when it comes to worldly things.

I've observed this behavior often enough among other Christians with privileged life. They say they don't value money but ask them for a bit of help with money, they won't.

Interesting post! I actually gave my car away a few months ago after I drove (relocated) from Eastern Pennsylvania to my present home in Northern California. The parking space where I live is very limited and I wanted to downsize my bills etc. so this was an easy decision to make.

I can see different reasons both pro and con for doing what you ask, where I might have either given you my car, or would have turned you down because you came off as a scammer or there was already a needy friend who was first in line.

On the pro side, I am favorable inclined by this sort of thing. I do think God does bless givers etc. often in very subtle ways where on the back end of things allows people who do this sort of thing in the long term to be blessed by it by working Providence in their favor. The Two times, however I have given away my cars however it was always to Christian friends who I was very familiar with and knew them to be down and out.

I myself have never bought a single car in my life. I tend to get them from my parents (who would give me their old car, rather than sell it since their old car was better and newer than what I was driving). It's' kind of like a Christian version of "Paying it Forward". I also have given other vehicles to Christian charities after I'm done driving them (typically because they are old and warn out). It basically is the scripture about freely given and freely receiving. (In all honesty their can be a lot of headaches to selling used property that I would rather give it away and get a blessing than deal with nit-picky people).

I however do believe the popular saying "Charity begins at home" has a lot of Biblical basis (a number of different scriptures suggest that prioritizing your aid towards specific people in need that you are very familiar with is a good and proper thing). So I think you might have had to take your place in line (behind my best friend who ended up getting my car). But if I had reason to believe your case was more dire than his, I might have prayed about asked God if I should put you first in line on something like this and you would have needed to have made it to my area to take it off my hands.

In any event, I'm not sure how much you would have been blessed by my old 2005 Pontiac Vibe. My best friend who had a serious accident that could of easily killed him used it because his previous car was totaled. But he had to do some work on one of the brakes, and their was a bad exhaust leak that eventually developed in the cabin of the car that seriously limited how much he could drive for a few weeks until he eventually succeeded in getting it diagnosed and fixed.

Tropical Wilds · Mar 3, 2023

timewerx said:
He keeps on telling everyone he is a Christian and doesn't value money and materials things anymore.

The best way to test someone if he really doesn't value money and material things is ask him or her to give it away. Most people don't value garbage, won't have 2nd thoughts throwing them away and when they say the don't value garbage, they truly mean it.

I mean, I don’t value my garbage but if you were to ask to come over and root through it and bring some to your house, I’d probably say no. It’s not because I value the trash, but because I value my space, my privacy, a general sense of propriety, and my boundaries, and part of that means I don’t sign off on random people coming to my place to load up on my garbage. His saying “no, you can’t have my car” might be because he values his car, or it might be because he doesn’t want to deal with the repercussions that come with granting a car to a stranger.

Secondly, there’s a difference between “I don’t value material over spiritual anymore” and “I recognize I live in a world that assigns value on things and react accordingly.“ One can acknowledge that something has general value and then make plans based off that common general value without saying that they believe it has more quantifiable value than an intangible. He’s a Christian, not an idiot (presumably). He likely realizes faith doesn’t pay the bills and randomly siphoning off things of value to people isn’t a smooth move.

Third… Who cares? Most people don’t think valuing material things doesn’t makes one a bad person a dysfunctional Christian. There’s a lot of things that go in to the assigning of value, tangible or arbitrary. Some things have more or less value depending on what they’re comparing it to. My house is something I value tremendously and if the government were to offer me money for it because they wanted to widen the road, I’d turn it down without a second thought. But if God were to come down and say “donate your house or else you’re eternally damned,” I’d give up my house just as easily and quickly.

The only thing we prove by the hypothetical of “if you don’t value your stuff, give it to me” is that he doesn’t value your whims in a hypothetical argument in order to prove his faith and he feels there’s no risk that you’re God and saying no to you will yield any significant problems beyond bothering you. It’s not your job to test him, it’s not his job to prove anything to you, and while you intended to catch him with a “gotcha” moment, all it showed was you might be struggling with feelings of jealousy, classism/elitism, and you’re hoping to fix that by trying to make him look lesser in his faith than you are… Which isn’t how that works, really.

Pavel Mosko · Mar 3, 2023

Hazelelponi said:
Honestly, I don't think you can judge him for that.

I'm a member of a hobby forum myself and it's one where as members we have a keen eye out to help out other regular members whenever we can as far as the hobby itself goes. I probably sent products and various things to 50 members or more over the years, and many people sent things to me as well if they were able or had extra of anything.

In general it's not a problem - until someone says openly and publicly that you mailed them free stuff.

Then the beggars show up who live better: they have nicer homes and more expendable money than your average joe who literally take advantage of other people's generosity. They start messaging and asking for stuff - which generally wouldn't be a problem except they could buy what they ask for without issues.

It became such a problem that everything a large group of us would send to others had to be kept secret: we started asking for our names not to be mentioned in open forum, and perhaps less got sent.

Weeding out the needy from the wealthy beggars is a distinct issue online, and why many people, even if they are normally giving, will refuse to give charitably to people they've only met online.

While hobby forum's are a very different animal than other types of forums and have a tendency to be much closer knitted groups of individuals, the problems of giving to people online are real. It's better as a result to give a little closer to home - especially when it's items like a vehicle and not directly related to the hobby itself.

You know I have kind of had this problem but on Facebook! I actually made the following post a year ago about it.

Quote
This is just a general complaint when dealing with Christian ministers on Facebook and other similar social media platforms from the 3rd World. It often comes across to me (based on past experience) people from Africa, India and Pakistan etc. often see Christians from America and other western countries as being rich, and kind of a wallet or money tree that they can shake when their own ministry, church etc. has problems and needs.

Relatively speaking we may be rich as far as standard of living goes, but not really when it comes to our own economic and financial well being, meaning we may not be that far ahead of paying our bills, and what we have in our bank accounts. Meaning that many people in the west might only be a few months away from homelessness and other problems if they encounter a problem like long term unemployment.

Besides that your own church, or Church Communion, or long time minister friends may not be doing that great. Actually come to think of it that often is true for the person in question, including myself and folks I've known people who in the past and present that are having to work to plant a church, or start a ministry and having to work a "tent making" job like saint Paul to make ends meet.

Besides this I will just have to say relationships are a two-way street. No doubt Christians living outside the Western World have it tougher and should get more support from their brothers and Christians in so called "Christian" nations. And this goes doubly with how I've seen some churches handle financial manners questionable spending, and for my time spent in the Faith / Prosperity end of the Charismatic movement... this goes quadruplely.... But there are things called manners, and decorum, and some folks are just way to pushy than what is OK for us in this end of the World. Not to mention, their is a big problem of scamming etc. and an even greater need for discernment etc. and that is something that takes time so you need to learn to back off simmer down etc.

By the way, it should be said I am not inclined to give to you, your church, your ministry no matter how much you attempt to schmooze me! (Lots of people want to contact me with instant messenger, Facebook virtual telephone app etc. but not having really anything much to say, except to try to make light conversation etc. This annoys me, and tends to interrupt the projects and things I am actually working on).

OK folks thanks for listening to my rant!

Tropical Wilds · Mar 3, 2023

timewerx said:
I only make $5 per hour and drowning in my parent's debt. My income is not enough to pay for their debts. The failing car is a problem but I got way bigger problems.

So even if the guy actually said YES, I'd actually refuse the car donation. The car won't help much, we can get by with public transportation and bicycle. I simply wanted to know what's in his heart.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to test anyone here. I'm simply sharing a story. I'm not asking for help. If anyone offers any help, I'll refuse it.

I struggle to see where or how you’re being compensated in a legal way if you’re only making $5 an hour. National minimum wage is $7.25 and even if you’re worked a tipped position, most states require employers make up the minimum wage difference (if not for the state minimum wage, but the national one).

Also, your question is a test and it doesn’t show what’s in his heart. The question is structured so that he can’t win (either he says ‘sure’ and now he has to give you and anybody else who asks a car in order to satisfy an internet argument or you have to back off and say you didn’t really want it so now who knows if he’d really give it to you, or he says no and… Well… Here we are). So really, it reveals more about the person asking the question than it does him. From his angle, it’s a lose-lose question that means very little in the long run.

Especially since the conclusion you’re trying to draw…. If you don’t value something you’ll give it away without complaint… Ignores the simple fact that just because you gave something away doesn’t mean you don’t value it. People give away things of value all the time. So one can just as easily keep something of no value as they can give away something of significant value.

Always in His Presence · Mar 3, 2023

timewerx said:
He keeps on telling everyone he is a Christian and doesn't value money and materials things anymore.

The best way to test someone if he really doesn't value money and material things is ask him or her to give it away. Most people don't value garbage, won't have 2nd thoughts throwing them away and when they say the don't value garbage, they truly mean it.

Can you send me $20.00 - I need gas in my car.

timewerx said:
I only make $5 per hour and drowning in my parent's debt. My income is not enough to pay for their debts. The failing car is a problem but I got way bigger problems.

So even if the guy actually said YES, I'd actually refuse the car donation. The car won't help much, we can get by with public transportation and bicycle. I simply wanted to know what's in his heart.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to test anyone here. I'm simply sharing a story. I'm not asking for help. If anyone offers any help, I'll refuse it.

Trot on down to McDonlad's they hire at three time what you are making now.

tampasteve · Mar 3, 2023

I think it is worth mentioning that not all of our members live in locations with high minimum wages.

SavedByGrace3 · Mar 3, 2023

timewerx said:
In another forum. A non-religious hobby forum, we have a highly successful member who openly admits being Christian and I guess proud to be one.

He often tells about his career. A very good one. As an engineer (or a scientist, can't remember the exact detail on that one) working for one of the top aerospace companies in USA, having high level security clearance and also worked on smaller but high profile projects. No doubt he is highly intelligent and smart, a man with 'golden hands' everything he worked on succeeded. And his career made him quite well off financially and retired successfully, no debt with large savings and large income from investments and pension. He travels all over the world with his wife many times a year.

He often talks about his successful career and attributes everything to God all of his blessings and success. Everyone in the forum knows him. He knows me just enough to trust me. Then lately, I often see him write in his posts he no longer values money and material things.

So I tested him on the things he wrote. One thing about this rich Christian pensioner, he had lots of cars for his own use only. He doesn't collect cars but he has different vehicles for different occasions. Some of them expensive, some are just regular sedans like most people drive to work.

Everyone in the forum knows me for having plenty of car problems with my old beat up car. So I asked this rich member if he can give me one of his car that's working perfectly fine to replace my old beat up car. He says he can't. I gave him a 2nd option, if he can't give up any of his cars due to sentimental value, he can send me money instead so I can find a good used car to replace my old beat up car. Again, he said no and he told me not because he doesn't trust me nor doesn't like me, he just wouldn't do it.

So I reasoned with him. He had plenty of 'disposable money', cars he can give away without problem. If he doesn't value money nor material things anymore, he shouldn't have any problems giving them to those who may need it so badly.

He gave a final reply he just can't with a smiley. He did not give any reason nor tried to debate the topic. From that point on, I never saw him write about his his beliefs about money and material things anymore. He also stopped telling about his Christianity. I wonder sometimes if I overdid it or did just right. After all, it would seem his intentions are in the wrong place and I made him out to be a hypocrite when it comes to worldly things.

I've observed this behavior often enough among other Christians with privileged life. They say they don't value money but ask them for a bit of help with money, they won't.

I have a thing about giving people money who I do not know and who seem to think that somehow I owe it to them.
Even people I do know I would rarely give them money for several reasons. I gave someone a hundred bucks a short while ago because they said they could not afford to buy their daughter a prom dress. Two weeks later they went on vacation to FL and a cruise. So as far as I am concerned what I really did was finance their vacation and cruise. I see this happen all the time. People poor-mouth and when you give them something they take it and blow it on some extravagant thing. Another issue is drugs and alcohol. This too I have seen. You hand someone some money to try and help them and they go directly and by drugs or booze. I have grandchildren I would never give money to because I know exactly what they would do.
Many people cannot handle a large influx of money. They will literally destroy themselves with it. I have seen it happen They have a good sized bank account, and a few months later they are in debt worse than what they were before they started.
I would never give money to someone who walked up and demanded some because they knew I was a Christian and therefore I somehow owed it to them. I would not be rude, but I think I would suggest they either get a job, a better job, get a degree and be qualified for a better job, or if they are unable to work, get on assistance or get help from their family.

Tropical Wilds · Mar 3, 2023

tampasteve said:
I think it is worth mentioning that not all of our members live in locations with high minimum wages.

Fair point.

Hazelelponi · Mar 3, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
I gave someone a hundred bucks a short while ago because they said they could not afford to buy their daughter a prom dress. Two weeks later they went on vacation to FL and a cruise

That's who I deem to be "wealthy beggars".

I live in a 950 square foot home in the Appalachian mountains without any central heat or air conditioning (no air conditioning at all, not even a window unit) and we live hand to mouth.

This doesn't stop me from being a very giving person, in fact it makes me more giving of what I do have because I know what it's like to go without.

On the forum I spoke of in my post (I'm not the OP creator) one guy had been running around saying he was broke, couldn't afford this or that etc so when he asked me for things I said sure and asked for his mailing information so I could send him some items I had.

Come to find out, after Google Earth-ing the mailing address, guy lived in a fancy house with fancy cars in his driveway in a very upscale neighborhood.

I sent him the items I promised since I told him I would, but I never again was that quick to agree to send anything to a member who wasn't a regular, trusted member. And I was pretty careful even with regular members after that too.

It had literally never occurred to me before that, that wealthy people would actually ask individuals for things (not businesses but just regular people) they could actually afford to buy themselves.

SavedByGrace3 · Mar 3, 2023

Hazelelponi said:
That's who I deem to be "wealthy beggars".

I live in a 950 square foot home in the Appalachian mountains without any central heat or air conditioning (no air conditioning at all, not even a window unit) and we live hand to mouth.

This doesn't stop me from being a very giving person, in fact it makes me more giving of what I do have because I know what it's like to go without.

On the forum I spoke of in my post (I'm not the OP creator) one guy had been running around saying he was broke, couldn't afford this or that etc so when he asked me for things I said sure and asked for his mailing information so I could send him some items I had.

Come to find out, after Google Earth-ing the mailing address, guy lived in a fancy house with fancy cars in his driveway in a very upscale neighborhood.

I sent him the items I promised since I told him I would, but I never again was that quick to agree to send anything to a member who wasn't a regular, trusted member. And I was pretty careful even with regular members after that too.

It had literally never occurred to me before that, that wealthy people would actually ask individuals for things (not businesses but just regular people) they could actually afford to buy themselves.

I would count you blessed just for living up in the mountains! Love the mountains!
I agree with what you say. Also people who get all upset about prosperity. Most of them have never lived in poverty and have no idea the effect it has on your soul and your faith. The very message that they need to hear they are brainwashed into thinking is evil. God wants you to prosper and be in health! I am not talking about gold bathroom faucets and leer jets. I am talking about a decent source of income. I am talking about running water and heat. I am talking about a safe and warm shelter for you and your family. I am talking about shoes on and good clothes on your kids. God wants us to pay our bills on time. Don't let anyone tell you that this "prosperity" is somehow evil and selfish. It is not. You are a tree planted by many waters. When you plant a tomato seed, you can believe God for tomatoes in the summer.

Lost Witness · Mar 3, 2023

"Freely we have received, freely give."
The LORD will sort the rest out.

May The LORD Bless You and Keep You

Shalom Aleichem

timewerx · Mar 3, 2023

Tropical Wilds said:
I mean, I don’t value my garbage but if you were to ask to come over and root through it and bring some to your house, I’d probably say no. It’s not because I value the trash, but because I value my space, my privacy, a general sense of propriety, and my boundaries, and part of that means I don’t sign off on random people coming to my place to load up on my garbage. His saying “no, you can’t have my car” might be because he values his car, or it might be because he doesn’t want to deal with the repercussions that come with granting a car to a stranger.

Secondly, there’s a difference between “I don’t value material over spiritual anymore” and “I recognize I live in a world that assigns value on things and react accordingly.“ One can acknowledge that something has general value and then make plans based off that common general value without saying that they believe it has more quantifiable value than an intangible. He’s a Christian, not an idiot (presumably). He likely realizes faith doesn’t pay the bills and randomly siphoning off things of value to people isn’t a smooth move.

Third… Who cares? Most people don’t think valuing material things doesn’t makes one a bad person a dysfunctional Christian. There’s a lot of things that go in to the assigning of value, tangible or arbitrary. Some things have more or less value depending on what they’re comparing it to. My house is something I value tremendously and if the government were to offer me money for it because they wanted to widen the road, I’d turn it down without a second thought. But if God were to come down and say “donate your house or else you’re eternally damned,” I’d give up my house just as easily and quickly.

The only thing we prove by the hypothetical of “if you don’t value your stuff, give it to me” is that he doesn’t value your whims in a hypothetical argument in order to prove his faith and he feels there’s no risk that you’re God and saying no to you will yield any significant problems beyond bothering you. It’s not your job to test him, it’s not his job to prove anything to you, and while you intended to catch him with a “gotcha” moment, all it showed was you might be struggling with feelings of jealousy, classism/elitism, and you’re hoping to fix that by trying to make him look lesser in his faith than you are… Which isn’t how that works, really.

Perhaps I live in an alternate reality because I see many people take out their old stuff they don't use anymore with the intention of someone else picking it up and using it themselves.

Tropical Wilds · Mar 3, 2023

timewerx said:
Perhaps I live in an alternate reality because I see many people take out their old stuff they don't use anymore with the intention of someone else picking it up and using it themselves.

I see that too, but it isn’t what we were talking about.

You were talking about somebody proving they don’t value material goods by giving you a car and stated it would be the same as discarding garbage to a person who doesn’t value items. I said that I don’t value garbage and yet wouldn’t want people picking through or taking mine, not because the garbage has value but because of circumstances surrounding the garbage creating value (privacy, etc).

That is very different from taking something old and unused and giving it away. In that case, giving it away doesn’t mean it’s valueless anymore than choosing to keep it means you think it has value.

You didn’t ask him if he was donating his car if he could give it to you. You told him to give you something to prove he doesn’t value material goods. Those are two very different actions. One is a person saying they’re giving away something and somebody else asking to have it. The other is somebody who never indicated they were giving the item away being told to give over the item as a good faith gesture to prove an ethos.

timewerx · Mar 3, 2023

Pavel Mosko said:
I however do believe the popular saying "Charity begins at home" has a lot of Biblical basis (a number of different scriptures suggest that prioritizing your aid towards specific people in need that you are very familiar with is a good and proper thing). So I think you might have had to take your place in line (behind my best friend who ended up getting my car). But if I had reason to believe your case was more dire than his, I might have prayed about asked God if I should put you first in line on something like this and you would have needed to have made it to my area to take it off my hands.

Finally, I read a Christian post!

But I have to refuse your most generous offer. Truth: We don't need a replacement car so badly, I'm the only one who can drive and if I have to get some place by myself, I actually prefer to ride my bicycle for exercise. For long trips altogether, we prefer the bus because it's cheaper than having to pay for fuel. My car is indeed in poor condition. Problems started showing up few years ago and I can't afford some of the more expensive repairs. The car is not in perfect condition to begin with. Previous owner was involved in accident with the car.

I have way bigger problems than car problems anyway. Doesn't concern anyone though.

I'm fascinated by most of the other replies so far. Yes, my methods are not exactly discreet. Otherwise, got the job done. A brother was saved from the sin of hypocrisy.

I never meant this thread to test anyone but it seems there are more Christians who seem to value money and material things excessively. They make lots of excuses not to be generous and only see problems instead of looking for solutions to helping people (without falling victim to scam).

Tropical Wilds · Mar 3, 2023

Again, the above seems to be more a commentary in how others do not measure up to where you perceive yourself spiritually and morally, not what others are doing or demonstrating their faith or attachment to material goods.

I mean, if somebody read your circumstances and said “wait, he has more than I do! I’m going to ask him for something and if he says ‘no’ it means he values items more than faith,” would you feel thats fair and accurate? If somebody said you have public transportation and don’t need a bike whereas where they live there is no public transportation so they need the bike more, would they be correct in assuming you are less-than in your faith for your lack of charity and equity by not handing over the bike?

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