I support Israel[open]

[Shimshon]

Messianics, as it is so obviously displayed here, are rejected by jews, because of the display of judaic garment.

To clarify, these things are rejected by 'orthodox' Jews. Not by 'all' Jews. The issue I see here is the same issue I see in Yisrael. A small sect of Judaism, "rabbinical" Yavneh Judaism, is attempting to descide just who is a 'real' Jew and who is not.

It's amazing how so many can find distain in the council of Nicene and yet adhere hook line and sinker to the council of Yavneh.

I'm so sick of the older brother claiming inheritance all the while murdering his younger in his heart.

Is a Karaite not a 'Jew'? Is a Samaritan? There are many 'non' orthodox Jews in the world.

As a Jew I was never orthodox, forever being told by the orthodox that I am not even Jewish. As a Messianic Jew I can not see the reason nor the leading from God to embrace the ways of those who have rejected the Messiah so vehemently.

I have been fighting this for longer than most of you have been 'saved'. My whole life I am called a mamzer, by Jews, my own people, and by Christians. Because I do, and will not bow down to the 'orthodox' majority.

As a person who has been raised 'reformed' I find it completely sickening the amount of pride and arrogance the orthodox communites show toward those who are in Truth their brothers and sisters.

What I usually see from orthodox people is the first born acting all [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed off because Abba took back the repentant wayward son.

(what do you mean he gets grace???? I did all the work and he took his inheritance and split!!! Now you love him the same as me???? He's not a Jew!!!! ) Bubkis!

Why can't the prodigals be accepted by the older sons? What does God think of people who act like that?

What God has declared clean, is clean. Who is rejecting God when they reject those who He delcared His?

I find it quite offensive as one who's fathers are Jewish. Even my own 'orthodox' Jewish grandfathers and mothers accepted me as 'blood'. Seems the Union of American Hebrew Congregations was willing to consider me Hebrew and bless my Jewish name.

But still many orthodox will call me a mamzer, and remove my birthright from their books. Saying 'your not a Jew' go observe the noahide laws, or go be a Christian. But don't even think that your a Jew.

Have you ever though how much you offend others and God by treating God's children this way?

Please forgive my bluntness, it's quite personal and offensive to me when the orthodox stand up and start determining just who can be called a Jew.

It's been my plight as a born Hebrew and as a Messianic. And the arrogance sickens me.

Yavneh Judaism is no more authoritive than Orthdox Christianity. Both are 'religion', mans thinking about who God is and what he wants. Our God did not set up a religion. He formed a people out of the dust of the earth, birthed us from above through his Spirit, and they will praise him above all things, throughout all the world. Jew AND Gentile. God has made all people equal in Messiah. We are One.

 

[Talmidah]

I would never approve of deception in any form. I don't have anything to say in response to this. I've never seen anything like that before. My experience is limited in such things. The shul i attend is without a dought messianic, although most all writeing is in hebrew.

I'm very glad that you would not approve of such deception. And I apologize for coming off harshly. Its just that I have seen that kind of thing a little too often for me to just say they are isolated incidences. Of course I don't think that all Messianics are deceptive or playing dress up. I was a sincere Messianic and wasn't either of those things. I understand the sincerity of and the excitement of taking on these 'new' traditions. I'm simply trying to get people to take a look at the issue from the other side. Perhaps MJs simply don't care what Jews think when they see a group of mostly gentiles suddenly digging into "Hebrew roots" studies and donning kippot and taliot. That is their prerogative not to care. Perhaps they feel that they are provoking Jews to jealousy. Mainly Jews simply see it as some silly thing to do. Perhaps these MJs will not change a thing, but will at least come to understand how they look to Jews and try to have some tact.

Back to the OP, in my opinion, support for Israel is great. Pins, ribbons, bumper stickers, stuff like that...awesome. Wearing magen david necklaces and things like that, while of course their choice to do, just doesn't come off as "support for Israel". It comes off as attempting to pass oneself off as Jewish even if that is not the intent. I myself did not wear a magen david nor openly use other Jewish "symbols/traditions" until my conversion was complete. My son wanted to begin wearing a talit katan, but he was not allowed to do so until after the beit din and mikveh. I simply did not want to portray us as something we weren't.

 

[ChavaK]

I once took a seventeen hour bus ride to Washingon DC to attend the largest pro-Israel rally the country had ever seen (I think this was in 2002), I was there for six or seven hours and then took another seventeen hour bus ride home.

 

[ChavaK]

I see..

Messianics all have one thing in common, torah observance and a desire to learn it more.

I think if messianics came to their own understanding
of how to follow and interpret Torah, we would have
less of a problem with it. It is the using of Jewish
ritual items, customs, and religious rites in a ( to
put it politely), less than appropriate way from a
Jewish POV that the problems arise from

Messianics are mostly gentile, but also consist of jews. Mind you jews that understand that Y-shua is the messiah.

Most of the M. Jews I have see have not been raised
observant (or many not raised as Jews at all) and
arrive at that understanding via a Christian
interpretation of things, rather than a Jewish one.

Messianics distance themselves from the normal everyday christian organizations because they do not want to be associated with anything that has pagan roots. Examples are obvious, christmas, easter, valentines day, etc...

But why observe Jewish minhagim and halacha when
they have no direct Torah basis, according to messianics?

Messianics understand that Y-shua and his talmidim are all jewish.

So? What they taught is clearly not Jewish (again
from a Jewish POV).

Messianics, as it is so obviously displayed here, are rejected by jews, because of the display of judaic garment.

It is the theological beliefs that we have a problem
with; the display of Jewish "garments" is a separate
issue.

Now, messianics are not playing dress up. Messianics observe hannakah, passover and all of the high holy days. We also have torah services as well.

Why? Chanukah clearly not in the Torah, and the
halachahs of Pesach, seders, Torah service etc are not to be found there either. This is where the problems
stem- that messianics are following Jewish interpretations of many things, while rejecting the
religion itself. Again, it would be much more acceptable
for Jews if messianics would have their day of rest on
Saturday instead of Sunday, and follow only the
hagim in the Torah, and by their own interpretations
rather than by copying Judaism.


For this and these things messianics are rejected by christians as well.

I can't comment on that since I am not a Christian
nor do I know how they feel about messianics.
My guess is that it is probably pretty close to how
Jews feel.....

It's not an easy path to be a messianic.

Let me tell you, it's a lot easier path than being
a Jew.

Where's the love?

We don't hate messianics and even can respect them
for casting off some of the paganism associated with
mainstream Christianity. But neither are we commanded
to love others who are of a different belief than ours.

I hope this does not come across as harsh or offensive-
I think it is important that the points you raise are
addressed and that messianics understand how Jews
feel about these issues...



chava

 

[Talmidah]

I think if messianics came to their own understanding
of how to follow and interpret Torah, we would have
less of a problem with it. It is the using of Jewish
ritual items, customs, and religious rites in a ( to
put it politely), less than appropriate way from a
Jewish POV that the problems arise from

Thank you, Chava, for stating what I was trying to say, but saying it much better than I did!

 

[ChavaK]

As a Jew I was never orthodox, forever being told by the orthodox that I am not even Jewish.
This is correct, and halacha is not going to change.
However, the Conservatives also hold by this; only
the Reform accept paternal lineage, and only if
the person is actively raised as a Jew.

My whole life I am called a mamzer, by Jews
Well, if they did then they would be wrong.
You are not a mamzer by halachah.


I find it quite offensive as one who's fathers are Jewish. Even my own 'orthodox' Jewish grandfathers and mothers accepted me as 'blood'. Seems the Union of American Hebrew Congregations was willing to consider me Hebrew and bless my Jewish name.
Accepting someone as "blood" is not the same as
accepting one as a Jew. The Reform movement
accepts paternal lineage if one is actively raised
Jewish.

But still many orthodox will call me a mamzer
Again, that makes no sense as you do not
fit the halachic definition of a mamzer..

chava

 

[BereanTodd]

I don't wear anything on a regular basis. I do have a tallit that I use in the privacy of my home, I have mezzuzas and other things around my home. But my good friend who has helped lead me towards the MJ life, has a pin he wears like the picture below which I like a lot:

 

[HaNotsri]

My whole life I am called a mamzer, by Jews, my own people

No offense, but you wouldn't have been by any Orthodox or even Conservative Jews. A mamzer is a product of an illegitimate union between two Jews (i.e. a product of adultery or incest). It is not a person born of a Jew and gentile or out of wedlock.

If any Orthodox Jew called you a mamzer then they haven't learned Talmud Yevamos or Kiddushin, The Laws of Forbidden Relations (in the Ramb"m's Mishneh Torah)Even haEzer (from R' Yosef Karo's Shulchan Aruch). All of which expound on who or what a mamzer is.

 

[stone]

[/color]

But neither are we commanded
to love others who are of a different belief than ours.

i am

 

[WildHeart75]

As for tzitzit, there is no biblical command to wear a talit. So if a group wants to follow the mitzvah of tzitzit, why not develop their own style of 4 cornered garment. Why light two candles on Shabbat? Nowhere is that mentioned in the Bible. Why not come up with some beautiful, meaningful Christian traditions here? In everything, why simply copy the Jews, the greedy judgmental people with their rabbinic traditions that many, including quite a few Messianics I've come to see, seem to despise?

We are not 'copying Jews', we wear the tzitzit the way we were commanded to.. Why would we create our own style when Yahweh told us exactly how to make them and wear them? He commanded this to Israel...Israel is a people, His people..He decides who are His people not you or anyone else. Why does it bother you so much that we follow the Law? Yahshua said He was not here to take away from the Law but to fulfill it. So the laws of the OT still stand for EVERYONE not just Orthodox Jews.

 

[BereanTodd]

Why? Chanukah clearly not in the Torah, and the
halachahs of Pesach, seders, Torah service etc are not to be found there either. This is where the problems
stem- that messianics are following Jewish interpretations of many things, while rejecting the
religion itself. Again, it would be much more acceptable
for Jews if messianics would have their day of rest on
Saturday instead of Sunday, and follow only the
hagim in the Torah, and by their own interpretations
rather than by copying Judaism.

In the NT there is record of Yeshua keeping Chanukah, the Passover and other such festivals in the way of the Jews of that day. Jesus was a Jew, who kept all of the festivals and Laws. If Chanukah was important for Him to observe, then we assume that we should as well.

 

[Yusuphhai]

struggling for the freedom of Faith.

Recently I watched a concert on TV that praises Great Britain. The word that “God has made you so Strong” impressed me much. And another song named “Jerusalem” means new Jerusalem will be (or has been) built in Great Britain. That is a complex theological problem concerning the right of firstborn of God. I think it is one of the important reasons that "Christian" does not like Jewish.

I surport Israel , when I find "Christian" does not treat Israel with Justice.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

Okay, since this thread seems to be going in a different direction, I went ahead and started a new thread that discusses the issue of the Oral Torah outside of this forum.

Here's the link: http://www.christianforums.com/t482...bal-peh-[messianic-judaism].html#post31902724

 

[Talmidah]

We are not 'copying Jews', we wear the tzitzit the way we were commanded to.. Why would we create our own style when Yahweh told us exactly how to make them and wear them? He commanded this to Israel...Israel is a people, His people..He decides who are His people not you or anyone else. Why does it bother you so much that we follow the Law? Yahshua said He was not here to take away from the Law but to fulfill it. So the laws of the OT still stand for EVERYONE not just Orthodox Jews.

I couldn't care less if you wear tzitzit. I simply find it a little strange that you would want to fulfill the mitzvot by adopting the traditions of the Jews in how to wear tzitzit. A talit is certainly not specified in the bible. Simply the fringes are. I don't really care what 'Yahshua' said, I'm certainly not going to debate that. I was simply attempting to let you all know how it looks to the Jews since that was asked. HaNotsri and Chava have said the same thing, although much more eloquently so if you don't like my words for whatever reason, hopefully you'll read their posts and come to some understanding. If not, hey that's up to you.

 

[muffler dragon]

We are not 'copying Jews', we wear the tzitzit the way we were commanded to..

Where is the command in the Torah for Gentiles to where tzitzit?

Why would we create our own style when Yahweh told us exactly how to make them and wear them?

Feel free to show this to me from the Written Torah.

He commanded this to Israel...Israel is a people, His people..He decides who are His people not you or anyone else.

And where in the Torah has G-d stated that all nations are His people Israel?

Why does it bother you so much that we follow the Law?

Personally, I, as a Noachide, do not follow Torah. However, I would be very interested in knowing how you "follow the Law" without Rabbinic tutelage. Would you care to elaborate?

Yahshua said He was not here to take away from the Law but to fulfill it. So the laws of the OT still stand for EVERYONE not just Orthodox Jews.

Perhaps, you wouldn't mind elaborating on where Jesus commands Gentiles to observe Torah?

 

[ChavaK]

I surport Israel , when I find "Christian" does not treat Israel with Justice.

 

[Ivy]

struggling for the freedom of Faith.

And another song named “Jerusalem” means new Jerusalem will be (or has been) built in Great Britain. That is a complex theological problem concerning the right of firstborn of God. I think it is one of the important reasons that "Christian" does not like Jewish.

I surport Israel , when I find "Christian" does not treat Israel with Justice.

I agree. I think some Christians need to re-read the commandment about not coveting; it's basically a situation where the second-born child is trying to usurp the place of the firstborn child, and in fact trying to be the "only" child. It's delusional.

 

[Ivy]

I'm simply trying to get people to take a look at the issue from the other side. Perhaps MJs simply don't care what Jews think when they see a group of mostly gentiles suddenly digging into "Hebrew roots" studies and donning kippot and taliot. That is their prerogative not to care.

This is one area where I think it does make a difference whether an MJ is a Jew or Gentile. If they are a Jew, well, it seems like Jews have some right to deal with each other in the way they choose.

But I don't think, as a Gentile, that it is my prerogative not to care what the Jewish community thinks.

On the contrary, the NT states that we owe an oustanding debt of love to the Jewish people, and the last time I looked, loving people means first and foremost respecting their boundaries and sensibilities. That, I think, as a Gentile, is what I minimally owe the Jewish people, though I owe far more even.

Many Gentiles are dissatisfied with the sometimes shallow Christian culture that predominates, at least in U.S., & want to live a lifestyle that is more Biblically authentic. I think that is a legitimate desire, but a step has been omitted.....we can't just snatch other people's trappings and assume. (You know what they say about assuming....it makes an --- out of u and me ). There needs to be a thoughtful consultation with our own leaders and with leaders in the Jewish community, when our proposed actions affect them, about how we can best have that more authentic lifestyle.

 

[Talmidah]

This is one area where I think it does make a difference whether an MJ is a Jew or Gentile. If they are a Jew, well, it seems like Jews have some right to deal with each other in the way they choose.

But I don't think, as a Gentile, that it is my prerogative not to care what the Jewish community thinks.

On the contrary, the NT states that we owe an oustanding debt of love to the Jewish people, and the last time I looked, loving people means first and foremost respecting their boundaries and sensibilities. That, I think, as a Gentile, is what I minimally owe the Jewish people, though I owe far more even.

Many Gentiles are dissatisfied with the sometimes shallow Christian culture that predominates, at least in U.S., & want to live a lifestyle that is more Biblically authentic. I think that is a legitimate desire, but a step has been omitted.....we can't just snatch other people's trappings and assume. (You know what they say about assuming....it makes an --- out of u and me ). There needs to be a thoughtful consultation with our own leaders and with leaders in the Jewish community, when our proposed actions affect them, about how we can best have that more authentic lifestyle.

Ivy, once again your sweet, loving, spirit shines through in your words. What a beautiful demonstration of love, respect, and support. Kol hakavod!

 

[WildHeart75]

Sorry it has taken me a few days to get back to you, I have a husband and kids and a full time job so I am pretty busy. I'm sure you understand.

Where is the command in the Torah for Gentiles to where tzitzit?

The purpose of the tzitzit is to remember His commandments. The tzitzit is usually tied in knots that spell YHVH, this is to have Gods shield/covering around you. This is not only for the direct descendants of Jacob this is for all Israel, again Israel is Gods CHOSEN people, He chooses them...not you or anyone else.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

And where in the Torah has G-d stated that all nations are His people Israel?

First of all I did not say He said all nations are His people Israel, I said Israel is a People and He chooses who His people are, not you or anyone else. Being in the land of Israel does not automatically make you His child but following His Law and Commandments does.

Paul (who was a Jewish Rabbi) stated it perfectly in Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

It is our hearts, our faith and our works that count, not whose tribe we can trace our ancestors to.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps His covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keeps His commandments

It does not state that Noahides must only follow 7 commandments and those from the tribe of Jacob follow all 613 commandments does it? No, He said THOSE who love Him and keep His commandments (meaning all His commandments or else He would have specified)

Personally, I, as a Noachide, do not follow Torah. However, I would be very interested in knowing how you "follow the Law" without Rabbinic tutelage. Would you care to elaborate?

Now, I never said I do not have a Rabbi but would like to point out that I do not need a Rabbi to help me follow Gods Law, I do not need someone elses interpretation of how to follow His Law when I can read it and understand it myself. But just for the record I do have a Rabbi...His name is Yahshua. I also listen to the teachings of Rabbi Monte Judah.

Perhaps, you wouldn't mind elaborating on where Jesus commands Gentiles to observe Torah?

He doesn't but He never says for them NOT to either. As I stated before Yahshua says He came here NOT to take away from the Law but to fulfill it. If He did not come to do away with the Law then the Laws must still be obeyed and as a follower of Christ we must obey the Laws He obeyed.