I stumbled across this site... (about Perseverance of the Saints)

[BlackSaab52]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org

Do you all think that this site really refutes Perseverance of the saints or what? How sound are Dan Corner's arguements? I just wanted to hear your all's comments. This article, http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/nonerighteous.htm, particularly piques my interest, if you all could help? I thought I John 1:8,10 said that no Christians are perfect?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

he appears to be the right wing of wesleyian perfectionism.
i've been to the site before, he is not a world class theologian, just rather loud and persevering (grin).
if you are bothered by the doctrine of eternal security, i would recommend working through the links page:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/assurance.html

i've gotten into the habit of looking at monergism.com first, their links lists are consistently good. the issue is several hundred years old, at this point the Scriptures and the ideas are well-developed, you only have to follow and understand a well trod path.

either God is powerful enough to hold onto His, or He is waiting the unfolding of history as are we creatures of time, to see what we will actually do.....

 

[BlackSaab52]

I'm a Baptist, but I've been looking into Calvinism for close to a year, and yes, I have discovered monergism.com, and I'm hooked on it, too. Another site I like is http://www.internetmonk.com; it's just a site with some interesting articles on the seeker-sensitive movement, altar calls, election, and a host of other interesting topics.

I do overall believe in the concepts of election and predestination (not just foreknowledge), but I'm not sure if I should necessarily adopt TULIP. I just don't see election explained this way in the Bible (maybe it is there and I'm just not seeing it). And I'm also a bit skeptical of Calvin because of the whole burning of Servitus incident.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I'm a Baptist, but I've been looking into Calvinism for close to a year, and yes, I have discovered monergism.com, and I'm hooked on it, too. Another site I like is http://www.internetmonk.com; it's just a site with some interesting articles on the seeker-sensitive movement, altar calls, election, and a host of other interesting topics.

I do overall believe in the concepts of election and predestination (not just foreknowledge), but I'm not sure if I should necessarily adopt TULIP. I just don't see election explained this way in the Bible (maybe it is there and I'm just not seeing it). And I'm also a bit skeptical of Calvin because of the whole burning of Servitus incident.

i tried to handle the Servetus trial in my sunday school class on Calvin. check out:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/lesson15_essay.html

here is the short version

Constantine switched the Imperial patronage from Zeus, Apollo and company to the Christian Church and in doing so set into motion the institution that Luther rebelled against 1200 years later. There are several excellent books on the topic, I would recommend a set by Rodney Stark, where he introduces the motif of the Church of Piety versus the Church of Power and the entanglements and trouble this entails. For this discussion it is important to see the rise of an idea of Christendom or Corpus Christianum that looks at lot like Europe in the 16thC. Coupled with Augustine's doctrine of the two swords this was a most powerful motif that actually overrode many of the related and contradictory ideas from the Scriptures and is responsible for Calvin's behavior in the Servetus affair.

For Augustine's two swords theory gave a spiritual sword to the church but asked the church to refer the worst of the offenders to the civil state for execution by the secular killing sword. This is in fact what Calvin did as expert theological witness and preferrer of first charges; he was the representative of the visible church handing over to the state a dangerous seditious treasonous person.