i still have many questions, i will put some in this one thred

[stephenbooth]

[loose references]

what do you think Jesus means by 'first and last" ?

what do you think Jesus means by 'beginning and the end?'

what do you think Jesus means by "root and offspring of David"?

do you think it relates to his question "If David then calls him Lord, how is he his son?" ?

why do you think he means by "bright and morning star" ?

do you feel if we consider Christ's birth by Mary as his 'starting point' ,we are misunderstanding.


do you feel that Moses is a branch in the true vine?

do you feel Moses too, goes to the Father by Christ?

has John 14:6 been misunderstood ,by some, as exclusive and is actually inclusive?

Jesus teaches he is the resurection and the life. in regards to this teachings and those who have done good and those who have done evil? does it not express an importance for those who have done evil to come to belief in him...(John 3:16), i ask this as i reflect on the 'thief by his side' who believed in him.

 

[savedfromdistruction]

too many questions for one post. Just ask one with scripture reference and then ask another.

 

[stephenbooth]

(edited, Isaiah 42:9 was mistakently written Isaiah 4:9)

too many questions for one post. Just ask one with scripture reference and then ask another.

there is no need to feel compelled to try to share in your opinion on all , pick one if you please.


what do you think Jesus means by 'first and last" ?


what do you think Jesus means by 'beginning and the end?'

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last”
(Revelation 1:17)

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(Revelation 22:13)


also for consideration:

6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

(Isaiah 44:6)

2Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last
(Isaiah 48:12)

9Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
(Isaiah 42:9)

18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eaeth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
(John 13:18-19)




what do you think Jesus means by "root and offspring of David"?

why do you think he meant by saying "bright and morning star" ?


16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(Revelation 22:16)



do you think those statements relate to his question "If David then calls him Lord, how is he his son?" ?

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
(Matthew 22:41-45)




do you feel if we consider Christ's birth by Mary as his 'starting point' ,we are misunderstanding.?

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(John 17:5)


56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(John 8:56-58)
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1 Cor 10:1-4)



do you feel that Moses is a branch in the true vine?

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
(John 15:1)

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
(John 15:5)


do you feel Moses too, goes to the Father by Christ?
has John 14:6 been misunderstood ,by some , as exclusive and is actually inclusive?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(John 14:6)


Jesus teaches he is the resurection and the life. in regards to this teachings and those who have done good and those who have done evil? does it also express an importance for those who have done evil to come to belief in him...(John 3:16), i ask this as i reflect on the 'thief by his side' who believed in him


25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(John 5:25-29)


another question thats not in OP

when the apostles speak of inhereting the kingdom of God in the epistles (correct me if im mistaken in reference , and i ask, do they speak of 'entering'?), are they speaking to the afterlife alone?

20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(Luke 17:20-21)

which brings up another question, what is meant by 'inheriting ' the kingdom of God?

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:10)

 

[makingchristiandisciples]

Too many questions to answer in one post. I'm confused (which it isn't hard to confuse me, though).

 

[stephenbooth]

erased

 

[Hupomone10]

do you feel that Moses is a branch in the true vine?

No

do you feel Moses too, goes to the Father by Christ?

Yes, because when he was alive he went to the Father through the sacrificial system which was a type of Christ, admitting that he had no right to Holy God's presence apart from the death of another. He has now realized the fulfillment of that, seeing the Christ Whom all the sacrifices represented.

has John 14:6 been misunderstood as exclusive and is actually inclusive?

If a big boy in your class stands in the door and says "no one gets into class except by paying me a quarter", is he being exclusive or inclusive? And does it matter, is the question of exclusive/inclusive in fact only semantics and maybe evading the real issue?

Jesus teaches he is the resurection and the life. in regards to this teachings and those who have done good and those who have done evil? does it not express an importance for those who have done evil to come to belief in him...(John 3:16), i ask this as i reflect on the 'thief by his side'

One of these thieves did believe in Him.

Please share your thoughts so it's not a one-way conversation.

Blessings,
H.

 

[stephenbooth]

double post

 

[stephenbooth]

note: edited..".misunderstood ", to ," misunderstood, by some" through the posts i could in this thread.

edited: changes 'thief by his side' to 'thief by his side' who believed in him.

****************************************************

do you feel that Moses is a branch in the true vine?
​

hubomone10 wrote:
No
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
i ponder that Moses is, and (metaphoricaly speaking) that the true vine began its growth before Christs birth from Mary on earth.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(John 17:5)

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
(1 Cor 10:1-4)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.(John 1:1-14)

do you feel Moses too, goes to the Father by Christ?

hubomone10 wrote:

​

Yes, because when he was alive he went to the Father through the sacrificial system which was a type of Christ, admitting that he had no right to Holy God's presence apart from the death of another. He has now realized the fulfillment of that, seeing the Christ Whom all the sacrifices represented.

-------------------------------------------------

I ponder that he says that "no one goes to the Father but by me", means, no one.... so therefore, i ponder that those before Christ was born of Mary on earth, also go to the Father by Christ.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.(1 Corinthians 15:27-28)

has John 14:6 been misunderstood ,by some, as exclusive and is actually inclusive?
hubomone10 wrote:

​

If a big boy in your class stands in the door and says "no one gets into class except by paying me a quarter", is he being exclusive or inclusive? And does it matter, is the question of exclusive/inclusive in fact only semantics and maybe evading the real issue?
--------------------------------------------------------------
intereting analogy, in context of that analogy, i guess you considered Moses 'paid the quarter' ............ i feel it does matter if it is misunderstood and commonly misrepresented, as it seems to me, many in the world are offended in it. And if it is used to be a paintbrush of exclusiveness ,represented by men ,to justify exclusion to those that do go to the Father by him.

Jesus teaches he is the resurection and the life. in regards to this teachings and those who have done good and those who have done evil? does it not express an importance for those who have done evil to come to belief in him...(John 3:16), i ask this as i reflect on the 'thief by his side'
​

One of these thieves did believe in Him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i was refering to that one, i should have been more clear.


hubomone10 wrote:
maybe evading the real issue?

what do you mean? what is the real issue in your opinion?

**************************************8

thanks for sharing your opinions.

..

 

[Hupomone10]

YOur post was such that I couldn't quote it and respond back, but I'll quote it anyway:

hubomone10 wrote:
maybe evading the real issue?

what do you mean? what is the real issue in your opinion?

I may have misunderstood what you were talking about with "inclusive and exclusive." It appears that you were thinking of folks like Moses being either included or excluded, whereas I thought you meant the way people see such a statement today as a religion being very exclusive and closed-minded.

If you're talking about whether Jews were included and go to God through Christ, I've already answered that with the sacrifice thought, and it would not be necessary for me to comment on this one.

The "real issue" I was referring to is that it is not a matter of excluding or including in general, but a matter of coming through the death of Another instead of us thinking we have a right to go to God in ourselves.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[stephenbooth]

YOur post was such that I couldn't quote it and respond back, but I'll quote it anyway:



I may have misunderstood what you were talking about with "inclusive and exclusive." It appears that you were thinking of folks like Moses being either included or excluded, whereas I thought you meant the way people see such a statement today as a religion being very exclusive and closed-minded.

If you're talking about whether Jews were included and go to God through Christ, I've already answered that with the sacrifice thought, and it would not be necessary for me to comment on this one.

thats where i am beginning the conversation at.


The "real issue" I was referring to is that it is not a matter of excluding or including in general, but a matter of coming through the death of Another instead of us thinking we have a right to go to God in ourselves.

yes, no one goes to the Father but by him.


Hope that clarifies.

what you think he means by, first and last?

i pondered, prophet?, considering that Moses spoke of the great prophet (correct me if im wrong) are their any prophets mentioned after Jesus was glorified in the Bible?....what does prophet mean exactly? did Adam tell Eve what God told him? if so, does that mean Adam in a sense was a prophet?

(i havent read Genesis through)

is it interesting that Jesus after John the Baptist was put in prison, who was a prophet, Jesus says "the time has been fulfilled"?,do these things relate?


, and i consider it is a reference to 'bloodline'
, but then i would consider Mary's earthly bloodline too comes from David?....maybe a 'first and last' of a specific line of people .in relation , to deliver a specific message or perform a act? maybe it has many meanings/reference? ?maybe maybe maybe....i suppose one would have to read about all those meantioned in the bloodline to have a better understanding.

i dont know.


what does this mean to you?




Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
(Luke 3:38)

 

[Hupomone10]

what you think he means by, first and last?

I think He means that He, like God the Father, is the Eternal One, outside of time. The best way to convey that is to say you are the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. No matter what beginning and what end you are talking about, God, and therefore Christ Jesus, is there.

And not just there; notice that He didn't say He was there at the beginning; He IS the beginning, He IS the end.

 

[stephenbooth]

I think He means that He, like God the Father, is the Eternal One, outside of time. The best way to convey that is to say you are the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. No matter what beginning and what end you are talking about, God, and therefore Christ Jesus, is there.

And not just there; notice that He didn't say He was there at the beginning; He IS the beginning, He IS the end.

(note earlier i had a typo regarding Isaiah 42:9, i had Isaiah 4:9 written.

i agree with what you are expressing....
did you consider these verses? (i put more in)


Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.(Isaiah 41:4)

[FONT=&quot]23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] (John 8:23-25)[/FONT]



6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

(Isaiah 44:6)

2Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last
(Isaiah 48:12)

9Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
(Isaiah 42:9)

18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eaeth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
(John 13:18-19)


who is speaking/writing in the verses of Isaiah?

I guess my ponderings can be relatable to this verse.


16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(Revelation 22:16)


what do you think he is expressing by saying "I am the root and offspring of David"?

sounds like geneology to me by the use of "root" and "offspring"

look at the questions he is asking here...

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
(Matthew 22:41-45)



what do you think?

 

[stephenbooth]

erased

 

[Hupomone10]

(note earlier i had a typo regarding Isaiah 42:9, i had Isaiah 4:9 written.

i agree with what you are expressing....
did you consider these verses? (i put more in)


Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.(Isaiah 41:4)

[FONT=&quot]23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] (John 8:23-25)[/FONT]



6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

(Isaiah 44:6)

2Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last
(Isaiah 48:12)

9Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
(Isaiah 42:9)

18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eaeth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
(John 13:18-19)


who is speaking/writing in the verses of Isaiah?

I guess my ponderings can be relatable to this verse.


16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(Revelation 22:16)


what do you think he is expressing by saying "I am the root and offspring of David"?

sounds like geneology to me by the use of "root" and "offspring"

look at the questions he is asking here...

41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
(Matthew 22:41-45)



what do you think?

I don't know what it is you're asking, brother.

Blessings,
H.

 

[stephenbooth]

I don't know what it is you're asking, brother.

Blessings,
H.

what do you think he is expressing by saying "I am the root and offspring of David"?


ill make a thread

 

[stephenbooth]

btw i brought up Mary's bloodline to David...it was just a ponder considering Jesus was born of virgin, not of Joseph but of the Holy Spirit. so i pondered Mary's dads bloodline to David considering one cant be born of a virgin male. thats all. just a ponder.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Hupomone10]

btw i brought up Mary's bloodline to David...it was just a ponder considering Jesus was born of virgin, not of Joseph but of the Holy Spirit. so i pondered Mary's dads bloodline to David considering one cant be born of a virgin male. thats all. just a ponder.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I think that's it, Mary's lineage.