• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

I really hate the book of Revelation

Jump to latest Follow Reply
Sort by date Sort by votes

Soulgazer

Christian Gnostic
Feb 24, 2011
3,748
90
Visit site
✟26,903.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The why not, is because to us the mythologies are meant to be internalized. You made a natural inference--- There is not a gender title to cover an androgenous being except "It" and that seems too disrespectful. We often say "Father-Mother God" in prayer.

But back to the internalization process. We look inward, because that is where the true miracles are happening; The hurts are being healed, attitudes adjusted, and the rooms swept out. The symbols of Love and Wisdom are processed into reality within us, if we are doing it right, and manifest through us in how we interact with others.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
D

doc8645

Junior Member
Aug 8, 2004
99
6
80
wa.
✟22,892.00
Faith
Christian
hiscosmicgoldfish;
I was just wondering if you've given any thought or have considered that the problem isn't the books of Daniel or Revelation, but possibly your symbolic interpretation that is off course.

I also have read some scholars and historians, but they state the language in Daniel itself argues for a date earlier than the second century. Linguistics from the dead sea scrolls demonstrates that the Hebrew and Aramaic chapters of Daniel must have been composed centuries earlier. Some of the technical terms appearing in chapter 3 were already so obsolete by the second century B.C. that translators of the Septuagint translated them incorrectly. Plus, several of fullfillments of prophesies in Daniel could not have taken place by the second century anyway to be considered as "history". So that element can't be dismissed, the symbolism connected with the four kingdoms makes it unmistakably predictive of the Roman Empire which didn't take control of Syro-Palestine until 63 B.C. and the 'anointed one', the ruler approximately 483 years after "the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem".

And as far as the Roman Empire not conquering Parthia, well, they were in Rome's grasp even though there was various uprisings. In the sixties of the first centry C.E. the Armenian King received his crown from emperor Nero, the king was to be a Parthian prince, but needed approval from the Romans. And again war broke out in 114 C.E. and the Roman emperors Lucius Verus and Marcus Aurelius added Mesopotamia to their realms.

And I don't even know what to think about your " John put on Patmos as a crackpot"! Patmos was a place of banishment for dissidents and heretics of Rome, in this instance the ruler Domitian required to be called Dominis et Deus "lord and god", so John proclaiming Jesus "Lord and God" didin't sit well at all with Domitian's vast ego, hence banished!

In regards to your concern about Daniels statue not encompassing the "British empire", and muslim empire, I don't believe you were reading or interpreting correctly. Daniel was addressing "world wide Kingdoms", not select rulership. There were only 4 as the prophesy states; 1.) Babylon 605BC-539BC, 2.) Medo-Persia 539BC-331BC, 3.) Greece 331BC-168BC, 4.) Rome=Pagan 168BC-478AD, Papal-538AD-1798AD

As to your supposition of the 10 horns and little horn as Antiochus IV, it also dosen't fit. In order to recognise the "power" as regards the beast in Revelation 13 and Daniel 7 there are certain pre-requisites laid out which must be present for this identification: 1.) The time of appearance (comes up among the 10 horns) 2.) different from the other horns, 3.) will do away with three horns, 4.) speak pompous words against the most high, 5.) persecute the Saints, 6.) think to change times and Laws, 7.) Rule for 1260 years (time, times, and 1/2 time) So I dont' think that ruler fits the bill, and its also why the Papal Rome comes under fire cause it does fit all 7 criterion.

When Roman emperor Justinian's general Bellsarius kills the Bishop Viquilius for being too independent and Rome afterwards again goes on a campaign, the emperor gave his septre over to bishop Silverius to rule in his absence, thus creating "PAPAL" Rome.(answers time of little horns appearance and different from the others=Politican and Religious Powers)which continues to rule for 1260 years until 1798 A.D. when Napolean sent his general Berthier to Rome and captured it and the Pope, who died in prison.(thinks to change times and Laws(changes the Commandments), persecutes the saints=the dark ages, speaks pompus words against the most High=Pope is God on earth, rules for 1260 years)
After the Pope died (the beast received a mortal wound) which remained 'unhealed' until 1929 when Mussolini instills Pope Gaspari once again as having Pope for church.(mortal wound healed) The ten horns at the time of the little horns rising were representing peoples, powers, or nations which occupied the Roman empire in 476 A.D.; 1.) Alamanni (Germany) 2.) Franks (France) 3.) Saxon (English) 4.) Visigoths (Spanish) 5.) Burgundians (Swiss) 6.) Lombards (Italians) 7.) Suevi (Portuguese) 8.) Herlihi 9.) Vandals 10.) Ostergoths. The Herlihi, Vandals, and Ostergoths were persecuted and wiped out, hence uprooted three horns.

There are many more examples of interpretations I've gotten thru Seminars, sermons, papers, books, and even some ideas from these various forums. But if you agree or don't agree, thats all right too, just keep studying, don't just disregard and make accusations and attack the books, I believe their there for a reason, just cause we haven't figured out why yet is our bad, not theirs, just my opinion.

God Bless;
doc8645
 
Upvote 0

Xpistis sopheiaX

Newbie
Jan 16, 2012
863
22
✟16,175.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
dollarsbill said:
Dogma?
Click to expand...

People seek the truth don't call other people who seek the truth "heretics."

That is an insult that comes from the self-righteous, hateful, person who puts dogma above love.

"Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so." ~ Gospel of Thomas

If anyone knows God than they know love. A person who genuinely knows love does not go around insulting other branches of Christianity and calling other Christians heretics because of disagreements over all the details. That is what people who do not know love do.
 
Upvote 0

Soulgazer

Christian Gnostic
Feb 24, 2011
3,748
90
Visit site
✟26,903.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This has been known for twenty centuries.
Ptolemy's Letter to Flora
 
Upvote 0
T

timbo3

Newbie
Nov 4, 2006
581
22
East Texas
✟26,082.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Marital Status
Married
By saying that the book of Daniel is not God's word is expressing that Jesus was wrong, that he did not know what he was talking about when he quoted from Daniel 9:27 at Matthew 24: "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing, as spoken through Daniel the prophet, (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains."(Matt 24:15, 16)

Jesus called Daniel a "prophet", and thus placed him among the "Prophets" of Jehovah God (Luke 24:27), and also referenced to Daniel 12:1 at Matthew 24:21 concerning the "great tribulation", placing the book of Daniel as "inspired of God".(2 Tim 3:16) Thence, to call the book of Daniel as "false" is the same as saying that Jehovah God and Jesus Christ dispenses lies. This is no different than the Jewish religious leaders spitting in Jesus face.(Matt 26:67)

The book of Daniel covers from the year 618 B.C.E. or king Jehoiakim's third year as tributary king to Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar (Dan 1:1) down to the prophetic visions that Daniel was privileged to see in Cyrus' third year as ruler over Babylon in 536 C.E.(Dan 10:1), a period of 82 years.

Though higher critics of the Bible have called in question the historicalness of Daniel’s book, archaeological finds over the years have completely routed their assertions. For example, these critics leveled scorn at Daniel’s statement that Belshazzar was king in Babylon at the time that Nabonidus was reputed to be ruler. (Dan. 5:1)

Archaeology has now established beyond question that Belshazzar was an actual person and that he was a coregent of Nabonidus in the last years of the Babylonian Empire. For example, an ancient cuneiform text described as the “Persian Verse Account of Nabonidus” clearly confirms that Belshazzar exercised kingly authority at Babylon and explains the manner of his becoming coruler with Nabonidus.

The Jews included the book of Daniel, not with the Prophets, but with the Writings. On the other hand, the English Bible follows the catalog order of the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate by placing Daniel between the major and the minor prophets. There are actually two parts to the book. The first of these, chapters 1 to 6, gives in chronological order the experiences of Daniel and his companions in government service from 617 B.C.E. to 538 B.C.E. (Dan. 1:1, 21)

The second part, comprising chapters 7 to 12, is written in the first person by Daniel himself as recorder and describes private visions and angelic interviews that Daniel had from about 553 B.C.E. to about 536 B.C.E. (7:2, 28; 8:2; 9:2; 12:5, 7, 8) The two parts together make up the one harmonious book of Daniel.(source of final 2 paragraghs, All Scripture Inspired of God and Beneficial, pg 139, par 6)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ripheus27

Holeless fox
Dec 23, 2012
1,707
69
✟30,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

Here are some other options:

1. Only some of Daniel's prophecies were legit, and those are the only ones Christ cited. Everything else Daniel said was imperfect or plain wrong.

2. Christ never *really* cited Daniel, so all the verses where He is said to have done so are untrue.
 
Upvote 0
T

timbo3

Newbie
Nov 4, 2006
581
22
East Texas
✟26,082.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Marital Status
Married

By citing Daniel's prophetic statement at Daniel 9:27 and calling him a prophet, he established Daniel as one of Jehovah's faithful prophets and inspired by him. Being God's "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16) and by quoting from the book of Daniel, he stamped it as authentic, as God's word.

For example, at Daniel 8, Daniel sees a vision of a "ram....and it had two horns", with one taller than the other, and it was making "thrusts to the west and to the north and the south, and no wild beast kept standing before it, and there was no one delivering out of its hand....and it out on great airs."(Dan 8:4) It clashed with a "he-goat", trampling it down. What did this foretell ?

That a kingdom would arise and crush everything in its path quickly, which proved to be Greece under the command of Alexander the Great that became king of Macedonia in 336 B.C.E. He moved swiftly and in 331 B.C.E. disposed of Medo-Persia ("the hairy he-goat", Dan 8:21) at Gaugamela, ending the Medo-Persian world power, and with Greece now taking its place.

The angel gave an explanation of these at Dan 8:20, 21, but also provided another detail that the "king of Greece" would be "broken" and divided into "four kingdoms". This proved true, as four of his generals took control of the empire after his death in 323 B.C.E., (1) Ptolemy Lagus, (2) Cassander, (3) Lysimachus, and (4) Seleucus Nicator. It need be remembered that this was foretold some 200 years in advance, thus providing evidence that Daniel is "inspired of God."(2 Tim 3:16)

Thus, all of the book of Daniel is "legit" and is among the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament) that are "inspired of God", and that Jesus in many cases quoted from (such as Gen 2:24 at Matt 19:4-6; 1 Sam 21:6 at Matt 12:3, 4)

And our Creator, Jehovah God, cited Daniel as righteous, along with Noah and Job, putting him among his loyal ones.(Eze 14:19, 20) The apostle Paul cited Daniel as one who "stopped the mouths of lions"(Heb 11:33, Dan 6:22) and of his three Hebrew companions who "stayed the force of fire."(Heb 11:34, Dan 3:26)

It is not surprising that many are casting doubt on Daniel as well as other parts of the Bible. This is what Marcion, a 2nd century gnostic did, constructing his canon to suit his doctrines, taking only certain ones of the apostle Paul's letters and an expurgated form of Luke's gospel account.

Many treat the Bible like a buffet meal, choose this, but reject others. By rejecting any of the Bible (66 books, 39 Hebrew, 27 Greek) that has been established as "inspired of God", is a slap to God's face. This person will be rejected by him unless these fully recognize (and apply) that all of the Bible is from Jehovah God.
 
Upvote 0

Ripheus27

Holeless fox
Dec 23, 2012
1,707
69
✟30,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

This might seem like a flippant question, but how do I know I'm not hallucinating the words in the Bible as I read them? How do I know a demon isn't tricking my sight out, so that I don't read what's actually there? Or how do I know that my language-recognition capacity is not being messed with so that, even if all the words I see are the words that are really there, I'm systematically misinterpreting them?

How? Well, the Spirit, eh? But then I have to trust in the Spirit before I trust anything said in any version of the Bible. And if the Spirit also tells me not to trust this or that book in some version of the Bible...
 
Upvote 0
V

vocalyocal

Newbie
Dec 23, 2012
511
20
✟833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private




Id say you got yourself a bad spirit if it tells you not to trust Daniel writings
 
Upvote 0

Ripheus27

Holeless fox
Dec 23, 2012
1,707
69
✟30,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
vocalyocal said:
Id say you got yourself a bad spirit if it tells you not to trust Daniel writings
Click to expand...

But the same Spirit tells me to trust (not as inerrant/infallible, but still as quite inspired) the Gospels, the Epistle to the Hebrews, and other (not all other) books that can be found in the average Bible. It tells me to love Christ, to be of service to Him, to support Christianity against charges of being an irrational religion, to support the doctrine of the Trinity. It tells me not to be promiscuous, not to hate. It encourages patience and courage. It tells me to forgive, to hope for the Resurrection. I have no more reason to think of this Spirit as anything short of the Third Person of the Trinity than Christ had reason to believe that His Spirit friend was a tool of demons.

I suppose I don't want to say that the Spirit has told me to doubt Daniel's prophecies. It would be more accurate to say that the Spirit (and Christ, for that matter, in warning me not to worry about "tomorrow") told me that Daniel's prophecies pretty much don't matter in the end. Arguments that one or another of Daniel's (or others') prophecies have come true in the form of this or that historical event often involve archaeological/similar research that the ordinary man or woman is unable to engage in, and that even extraordinary ones are only able to do in the modern world. But a 3rd Century villager with no access to (alleged) proof of some prophecy's correspondence to historical truth, for example, still can be saved, and it can even be proved (or so I more or less believe) that his or her salvation depends on moral principles stated plainly in the New Testament, principles that are eternally evident to us.
 
Upvote 0
L

Lilly Owl

Since when is God's adversary a curse word here?
Dec 23, 2012
1,839
97
✟2,609.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian


Not too violent minded are you?
*backs away from you slowly*
 
Upvote 0
E

Enkil

Guest

It's also worth noting that even the Jewish historian Josephus cited Daniel as predicting the desolation that occurred under the Romans, amongst Daniel's other amazing prophecies:

"Daniel wrote that he saw these visions in the Plain of Susa; and he hath informed us that God interpreted the appearance of this vision after the following manner: He said that the ram signified the kingdoms of the Medes and Persians, and the horns those kings that were to reign in them; and that the last horn signified the last king, and that he should exceed all the kings in riches and glory: that the he-goat signified that one should come and reign from the Greeks, who should twice fight with the Persian, and overcome him in battle, and should receive his entire dominion: that by the great horn which sprang out of the forehead of the he-goat was meant the first king; and that the springing up of four horns upon its falling off, and the conversion of every one of them to the four quarters of the earth, signified the successors that should arise after the death of the first king, and the partition of the kingdom among them, and that they should be neither his children, nor of his kindred, that should reign over the habitable earth for many years; and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away their political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years' time. And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them. All these things did this man leave in writing, as God had showed them to him, insomuch that such as read his prophecies, and see how they have been fulfilled, would wonder at the honor wherewith God honored Daniel; and may thence discover how the Epicureans are in an error, who cast Providence out of human life, and do not believe that God takes care of the affairs of the world," (Antiquities of the Jews X.XI.7).

Daniel's 70 weeks is one of the most profound prophecies of all scripture, accurately predicting the coming of our God Jesus Christ, His "cutting off" and the subsequent destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Roman armies under Titus. The authority of Daniel as a prophet of God is firmly established, and one of the greatest witnesses of Christianity.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ripheus27

Holeless fox
Dec 23, 2012
1,707
69
✟30,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Enkil said:
[Quoting Josephus] And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to bring up the issue of when certain sections of Daniel were written to start an argument directly about that topic, but to point something else out. I personally am not in a good enough position to know right now whether Daniel was written all at one time or partly after-the-fact, so to speak. The average reader of the Bible I daresay is in no such position. Therefore, even if the traditional view of the Book of Daniel is correct, the difficulties involved in knowing this truth prevent Daniel's prophecies from being of much real value, even for believers.
 
Upvote 0
E

Enkil

Guest

One can solve this issue by simply opening up a history book and consulting a few of the older biblical commentaries, like Barnes, Clarke or Matthew Henry. If it was written "partly after the fact," you're looking at sometime after 70AD.
 
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

K
Regarding the origin of the body of Jesus Christ
Replies
16
Views
651
Controversial Christian Theology
KolQoreBaMidbar
K
Christian books that changed your life
Replies
9
Views
419
Book Club
jacks
The Lost House of Israel
Replies
24
Views
1K
Controversial Christian Theology
Dan Perez
D
G
Proof that The Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls of Revelation are Happening Concurrently
Replies
28
Views
866
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
Garrett.theo
G
The End Time Puzzle
Replies
13
Views
835
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
pc_home
Menu
Log in
Register