I/R Irresistable vs. Resistable grace

[Mandy]

I agree. God's grace is available to all men, yet not all will receive it. We are the elect according to the foreknowledge of God. God knows who will receive Him.

 

[ZiSunka]

And to foresee something is not to make it happen.

I can foresee that my nephew will fall off his wobbly bike, but I do NOT make it happen.

Foreknowledge and fatalism are two different things.

 

[tericl2]

F-Fall from grace- You can lose your salvation. As some have said in the threads one can walk out of God's hand.

This is where i would disagree with Armenianism, although this is not a universally agreed upon armenian philsophy.

 

[Blackhawk]

tericl2,

True. Jacob Arminius was undecided abotu it. Later Arminians were the ones who said that for sure we can but not even all of them believe that. (like me)

Bh6

 

[Blackhawk]

Okay here i definitely agree with the Arminians again. I see all throughout the bible that we have a choice whether to be saved or not and that one is damned for not choosing God. BH6

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by chuck
If God indeed chooses who He will change and who He will not (those He will save and those He will not), and we of our own will could never accept or reject this then why was God "sorry" He created man and He was so sorry and "grieved" in His heart about it that He was going destroy man, and not just man but "beast, creeping thing and birds of the air".

There is no contradiction between these verses and passages teaching the changelessness (immutability) of God (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17) and that God does not change His mind (Numbers 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Ps. 33:11; Is. 46:10). This description is anthropopathic. Additionally, the immutable and sovereign God deals appropriately with changes in human behavior. When we sin or repent of sin, there is a change in the blessing or punishment appropriate to the situation (Ex. 32:12, 14; 1 Sam. 15:11; 2 Sam. 24:16; Jer. 18:11; Amos 7:3, 6). Remember, God is changeless in His being:

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

This really made me think. I have heard people say that this is not refering to all men but to the "elect" but if that is the case then we know non of them would ever perish because God would have "regenerated them" if indeed this verse is refering to the "elect".

Once again, it's important to note that Simon Peter was talking to the CHRISTIANS in Asia Minor where he was. The "us" refers to Peter and his fellow Christians.

If God wants all to come to repentance then why doesn't He regenerate all?

Two points. First, God does not want all to come to repentance, or all would. Either you have to agree or you have to say God has not the power to make it happen. He either wants it to happen but doesn't have the power to make it happen, or, He doesn't really want all to come to repentance.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by blackhaw6
Okay here i definitely agree with the Arminians again. I see all throughout the bible that we have a choice whether to be saved or not and that one is damned for not choosing God. BH6

In light of your earlier statements as to the depravity of man and God's foreknowledge it seemed as if you were implying that the reason God could know someone's final disposition towards Him would be because they were created that way. I'm curious as to the scriptural evidence (verses) you came upon that now so clearly reveal man's ability, prior to God's intervention, to choose to live for God, though they have a nature that is at enmity with Him.

Please elaborate.

God bless.

 

[StogusMaximus]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Two points. First, God does not want all to come to repentance, or all would. Either you have to agree or you have to say God has not the power to make it happen. He either wants it to happen but doesn't have the power to make it happen, or, He doesn't really want all to come to repentance.

God doesn't want all to come to repentance? So God wants some people to be damned? If God wants some people to be damned, how can God love them? If God does not love these people then the Bible is filled with lies. If the Bible is filled with lies Christianity is lost.

DANGEROUS!!!

 

[Blackhawk]

"Two points. First, God does not want all to come to repentance, or all would. Either you have to agree or you have to say God has not the power to make it happen. He either wants it to happen but doesn't have the power to make it happen, or, He doesn't really want all to come to repentance. "

I would agree to a point. i believe God does not want all to come repentence so much that He is willing to make us robots and make us repent. Note of clarification I do not think Calvinism makes a robots though.

But this is kind of like the problem of evil huh? Why is there evil if God is all good and all powerful? Well i would say that He has the power to stop evil and the powere to save everyone. But He chooses in both instances to give us a choice. And what I mean by a choice is a true choice.

i do not really have a problem with someone saying that god would come into someone's life and change His desires so He accepts salvation but what about the nonelect? My old pastor used to say in seminary it is easy to be a Calvinist but once you start a pastorate you can't be one. I just can't see the god that is revealed in scriptures creating a being with Original sin inherited from Adam and then not give this person any chance to be saved. Why would He want to create someone with 0% chance to be saved? I do believe that the sinner's deserve death but God just lets them go to hell without any kind of reaching out to them? That is not the gracious God i know. That is not the Jesus who was the friend of the sinner. The tax collecter, the harlot, the working guy, the roman centurion and the samaritan. He was the friend of all the people that the jews thought were trash. Those are not the chosen people or those are the dogs of the world. that is what they thought of those types of people. But jesus loved them. He cared for all that He met. So as I look at Jesus' life i can't imagine a God who would only show grace to a select few that He chose. it seems very out of character for him to do.

BH6

i will get more in depth with scripture when I get home or later this weekend wheere I can quote scripture more easily.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by StogusMaximus
God doesn't want all to come to repentance? So God wants some people to be damned? If God wants some people to be damned, how can God love them? If God does not love these people then the Bible is filled with lies. If the Bible is filled with lies Christianity is lost.

DANGEROUS!!!

I'll tell you what's dangerous, that you think God powerless over His own creation. You sound like Job. All he did was sit there and say, "What did I ever do to deserve this" just as you are saying the damned don't deserve it. He said he didn't want to answer God. Did he answer God? God said (I'm paraphrasing), "You'll stand up like a man and answer my questions because I am God. You can't do what I can do. I did things so magnificant you can't even begin to comprehend them. I have power over the largest and most dangerous creatures ever created, because I created them. Can you do that? I am God."

In light of that you can honestly sit there and say God needs you to accept him for His majestic plan to have effect in your life. I think you have a dangerous idea of the sovereignty of God. God is God of all, whether they accept Him or not. Right? All will be judged. The hangup is that you don't think the created being with the fallen nature got a fair chance at accepting God. The bible has something to say about that:

Romans 9:19-21
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Sounds a lot like what you have a problem with.

If there's truth to this and it makes you think the Bible is filled with lies who's understanding are you really relying on?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Don't discount something just because it's not what you might have always heard. I had always thought like the majority of people on this board. Then I realized that I had a very limited view of God's sovereignty, like the majority of people on this board.

God bless.

 

[Blackhawk]

Hey guys I think we should all watch out with our tones and posts here. i know we have definite views and stuff but let's be careful. We are Christians. This is just a reminder before something erupts.

BH6

 

[Mandy]

I believe that God would rather us choose to love Him and serve Him of our own freewill and not because He caused it to happen.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by blackhaw6
But this is kind of like the problem of evil huh? Why is there evil if God is all good and all powerful? Well i would say that He has the power to stop evil and the powere to save everyone. But He chooses in both instances to give us a choice. And what I mean by a choice is a true choice.

God created everything for a purpose. The creation of something we think is bad or evil was good because it was meant for a righteous purpose. For example, most, including myself, would say murder is bad. Or the death of a young child is bad. The reason we say those things are bad is because we can only see the immediacy of that single situation. We don't look at the death of a child by saying God is really moving in someones life. As bad as we might think that is, what makes it a good thing is because God is using that to conform and sanctify someone. The parents, if Christian, will eventually, hopefully, be able to look at that as an experience that helped them grow closer in their faith in the Lord's promise that He works all things to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Rom 8:28). Also, it will help them give comfort and guidance to others who experience that trauma. If the parents aren't Christian then it was intended to work for the good of someone else. Romans 8:28 doesn't say "He works all things to the good of everyone." That verse is qualified by the limitor, "those who love Him and are called according to His purpose." It amazes me that so many Christians expect to go through their Christian life without suffering. Name one Christian who God has not made suffer. Job was the most righteous person on earth during his life. What did God do to him? He took everything from Job. Everything! I wonder how people expect to be changed from the old man (self-centered, unrighteous) to this new creation (selfless, godly) without suffering and conflict. God uses the evil in this world to help us recognize and rejoice in His neverending grace.

Why would He want to create someone with 0% chance to be saved?

To help those who He does save be conformed. To help them recognize the gift they have unmeritoriously been given.

I do believe that the sinner's deserve death but God just lets them go to hell without any kind of reaching out to them? That is not the gracious God i know. That is not the Jesus who was the friend of the sinner.

Do you know anyone who isn't a sinner? If sinners deserve death and we are all sinners then what do we deserve? Find your joy in the fact that God will, as Peter said, "deliver us from this body of death." If making the right choice rescues you then who do you think really rescues you. Your own works?

He was the friend of all the people that the jews thought were trash. Those are not the chosen people or those are the dogs of the world. that is what they thought of those types of people. But jesus loved them. He cared for all that He met.

The people, the Pharisees, that thought they were holy and righteous looked down on others. God does not measure us the way man does. That's the point. He said He would use the lowly things to bring down the strong things of this world. Their station in life isn't what made someone righteous. This is a perfect example of man's nature to try and exalt himself over the Lord. You, yourself, in your example, are showing how God was selecting the lowly, the wretched sinner.

My pastor pointed something very simple out that most don't want to realize. People always talk about how they humble themselves to the Lord. Most don't know what it means to be humbled. To be truly humbled you must be humiliated; only then can we know humility and how we are no better than others. That's not even what Christians do to other Christians. They put people on pedastals. "Oh my pastor is so righteous." Reality: My pastor is a sinner who needs God's continual grace just like I do. "Oh Paul was so righteous. He was truly in God's favor." Reality: Paul was regularly beaten to within an inch of his life and then finally persecuted unto death. Does that sound like the average Christian's idea of being in God's favor. We say stuff like, "What?!! 4 bucks for a happy meal?!!" Yeah, we really know about suffering. Job was the most righteous. Lost everything, kids, money, servants, cattle. Oh yeah, we know about suffering.

God bless.

 

[StogusMaximus]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I'll tell you what's dangerous, that you think God powerless over His own creation. You sound like Job. All he did was sit there and say, "What did I ever do to deserve this" just as you are saying the damned don't deserve it. He said he didn't want to answer God. Did he answer God? God said (I'm paraphrasing), "You'll stand up like a man and answer my questions because I am God. You can't do what I can do. I did things so magnificant you can't even begin to comprehend them. I have power over the largest and most dangerous creatures ever created, because I created them. Can you do that? I am God."

I never said God was powerless over His own creation.
I don't think God is powerless over His own creation. If God wants me to live 1000 years I will, If God wants me to die this second I will. If God wants the day to be night and the night to be day then it will. I do however believe that God can not do something that is against His nature. God is Love. " Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:8.

Now I may have overstepped my bounds by asking how God could love people He would intentionally damn. In my beliefs man has fallen and deserves damnation, even though God loves us all.

God's love offers us salvation. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 The point I don't agree on is to say that God loves all men, but loves a select few more. The ones he loves more he will offer salvation, to the rest there is no option.

Originally posted by Reformationist
In light of that you can honestly sit there and say God needs you to accept him for His majestic plan to have effect in your life. I think you have a dangerous idea of the sovereignty of God. God is God of all, whether they accept Him or not. Right? All will be judged. The hangup is that you don't think the created being with the fallen nature got a fair chance at accepting God. The bible has something to say about that:

Romans 9:19-21
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Sounds a lot like what you have a problem with.

I never said God needs anything from me to have his majestic plan work.

God does have a majestic plan, and it has a stipulation.
We must believe - "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

He doesn't need us to do anything, He requires us to believe. If we don't we are surely damned.

What I have a problem with is God sending His Son to die for the sins of a few of mankind. Why just a few. Is the Blood of Jesus not strong enough to save all of mankind? Did God only pick his favorites to save?

I don't think so. I believe that God loves every single one of us. I think God loves us so much that he gave the ultimate sacrifice in order that we may be saved. To think the blood of Jesus can wash the sins away of every single person, if we only believe.

Originally posted by Reformationist

If there's truth to this and it makes you think the Bible is filled with lies who's understanding are you really relying on?

Proverbs 3:5-7
Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Don't discount something just because it's not what you might have always heard. I had always thought like the majority of people on this board. Then I realized that I had a very limited view of God's sovereignty, like the majority of people on this board.

God bless.

Who's understanding are you relying on? I base my beliefs on what I read in the Bible just as you have based yours. You follow your interpretation, and I will follow mine.

You think God only will save a few. I think God offers salvation to all, but only a few will believe and be saved.

 

[LouisBooth]

"But I don't agree with the part about God focusing his love and favors only on those he knows will someday accept him. "

Lambs, if not, what is so speical about calling God our father? Who do you think the promices of God are made to, its only to those who call on his name...those God has chosen.